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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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 Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 22:53 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: |
Besides, its not like you can hit an enemy country's factories without hitting its civilians. This is just another ugly event in an ugly war. |
factories are usually placed in areas, where no civilians are living, and large enough to hit without having too much "colateral damage". You cannot compare that to carped bombing or detonating of a-bombs over whole cities as the allied forces did at the end of ww2...
...and turning a blind eye on such atrocities doesnt help. It just shows that there are no good sides in a war, just alot of people that get killed. And the ones that ordered the onslaught usually survive and give out medals to the widows... |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 23:03 Post subject: |
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If the states were that worried about hitting civilians they wouldn't have detonated the bomb in the air for a larger blast radius
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 23:14 Post subject: |
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its very easy to judge historical events with today's ideals and standards
oh boy executions were so terrible! so inhuman! oh boy Hitler was only misunderstood we should've negotiated! oh boy they shouldve discussed things with Japan and not throw bombs at them! oh boy Fascism/Nazism is just an alternative lifestyle, etc..
Just think that if the bombings wouldnt have taken place, the USSR wouldve advanced in resulting Japan or atleast a part of it becoming communist (Sort of like N. Korea/S. Korea situation)
And besides, look how it changed Japan from that mud nation to what it is now
Sun Tzu says: "Go to war, but first have lunch. The wise general would try the lamb, which is fresh and a great price".
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 23:47 Post subject: |
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| LexLuger wrote: | its very easy to judge historical events with today's ideals and standards
oh boy executions were so terrible! so inhuman! oh boy Hitler was only misunderstood we should've negotiated! oh boy they shouldve discussed things with Japan and not throw bombs at them! oh boy Fascism/Nazism is just an alternative lifestyle, etc..
Just think that if the bombings wouldnt have taken place, the USSR wouldve advanced in resulting Japan or atleast a part of it becoming communist (Sort of like N. Korea/S. Korea situation)
And besides, look how it changed Japan from that mud nation to what it is now |
does any of those things matter? the cold war started some 20 years after the end of WW2, and as it turns out, the U.S. and U.R.S.S. knew the consequences of nuclear warfare thanks to japan's events, but no one knows the future, that's what matters, 20 years from now if Iraq turned out to be a peaceful country, would it justified the everyday onslaught that is happening now because of the U.S. stupid leadership?
what matters is one thing and one thing only, these crisis happen when they happen, it doesn't matter if in the future it turned out to stop worst things from happen, because no one knows the future before it happens.
it's a shame that 62 years later it's still "forbidden" to criticize the U.S. for their mistakes, if it was any other nation to make a nuclear strike to end WW2, by know everyone would assume the mistake, but when the U.S. are involved, some word of criticism for things that happen more than half a century ago is still taboo.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 23:59 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | LexLuger wrote: | its very easy to judge historical events with today's ideals and standards
oh boy executions were so terrible! so inhuman! oh boy Hitler was only misunderstood we should've negotiated! oh boy they shouldve discussed things with Japan and not throw bombs at them! oh boy Fascism/Nazism is just an alternative lifestyle, etc..
Just think that if the bombings wouldnt have taken place, the USSR wouldve advanced in resulting Japan or atleast a part of it becoming communist (Sort of like N. Korea/S. Korea situation)
And besides, look how it changed Japan from that mud nation to what it is now |
does any of those things matter? the cold war started some 20 years after the end of WW2, and as it turns out, the U.S. and U.R.S.S. knew the consequences of nuclear warfare thanks to japan's events, but no one knows the future, that's what matters, 20 years from now if Iraq turned out to be a peaceful country, would it justified the everyday onslaught that is happening now because of the U.S. stupid leadership?
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if in 20 years Iraq will be a peaceful country i will take my hat off infront of the USA and apologize globally for anything bad ive ever said about Bush
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 00:28 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | tainted4ever wrote: |
Besides, its not like you can hit an enemy country's factories without hitting its civilians. This is just another ugly event in an ugly war. |
factories are usually placed in areas, where no civilians are living, and large enough to hit without having too much "colateral damage". You cannot compare that to carped bombing or detonating of a-bombs over whole cities as the allied forces did at the end of ww2...
...and turning a blind eye on such atrocities doesnt help. It just shows that there are no good sides in a war, just alot of people that get killed. And the ones that ordered the onslaught usually survive and give out medals to the widows... |
Umm, if you look at any industrial city you will see that at first factories were placed alone from everything else, but then slums were built right alongside them so that workers could have easy access to the factories. It wasn't practical for a worker to live on the other side of the city, because public transportation at the beginning of the industrial revolution was shit. Why was it shit? Because so many new buildings were popping up, it made street planning impossible. Then, you end up with a bunch of shitty, low quality residential complexes sitting around massive factories. This city structure prevailed all the way to WWII. So, when you try to hit a factory, you end up hitting civilians.
| Quote: |
It just shows that there are no good sides in a war, just alot of people that get killed
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I acknowledge that. It was a shit war, with shit people, and everything about it was complete and utter shit, from the arrogant upclass generals who casually let hundreds of thousands die out of casual negligence and stupidity, to the scumbag politicians who started throwing mens lives away to divide up a world even before the war was over, just for their own political interests, to the propaganda machine that brainwashed people. WWII was the low point of human history.
| Mortibus wrote: | | tainted4ever wrote: | | slak wrote: |
In that case, it's ok to kill children too right? they might grow up to be soldiers?.
Idiot. |
Don't put words in my mouth. If that kid is strapped in an explosive vest with a detonator in his hand and is running at your convoy screaming, by all means shoot him.
Besides, its not like you can hit an enemy country's factories without hitting its civilians. This is just another ugly event in an ugly war. |
i'm pretty sure u wouldn't be talking like that if it was your home country with your family, friends and yourself in it
now would ya 
those bombs were simply an experiment that americans were itching to try out for years [for real that is], war was just passing along |
Talk like what? Do you think I'm dancing with joy when I think of all those dead Japanese, that such slaughter warms my heart? No. And its a damn shame that we even had to begin contemplating fire bombing entire cities, let alone use A Bombs. But again I ask, how many more would have died if we did not use them? How long would that war have gone on?
| Ronhrin wrote: | | LexLuger wrote: | its very easy to judge historical events with today's ideals and standards
oh boy executions were so terrible! so inhuman! oh boy Hitler was only misunderstood we should've negotiated! oh boy they shouldve discussed things with Japan and not throw bombs at them! oh boy Fascism/Nazism is just an alternative lifestyle, etc..
Just think that if the bombings wouldnt have taken place, the USSR wouldve advanced in resulting Japan or atleast a part of it becoming communist (Sort of like N. Korea/S. Korea situation)
And besides, look how it changed Japan from that mud nation to what it is now |
does any of those things matter? the cold war started some 20 years after the end of WW2, and as it turns out, the U.S. and U.R.S.S. knew the consequences of nuclear warfare thanks to japan's events, but no one knows the future, that's what matters, 20 years from now if Iraq turned out to be a peaceful country, would it justified the everyday onslaught that is happening now because of the U.S. stupid leadership?
what matters is one thing and one thing only, these crisis happen when they happen, it doesn't matter if in the future it turned out to stop worst things from happen, because no one knows the future before it happens.
it's a shame that 62 years later it's still "forbidden" to criticize the U.S. for their mistakes, if it was any other nation to make a nuclear strike to end WW2, by know everyone would assume the mistake, but when the U.S. are involved, some word of criticism for things that happen more than half a century ago is still taboo. |
By all means, criticize us, I don't care. I try to point out what I think are your mistakes without going around and throwing words like 'idiot' and 'moron' around. If I did use them, this thread would probably be closed by now.
As for what you say we don't know about the future, well lets look at it from the American perspective:
We are facing a fanatical enemy who has proven that he would rather fight to the death than surrender, even if absolute defeat was imminent, just so that he could hurt us (Iwo Jima anyone?). The only way aside from using an atomic bomb to stop the Japanese threat is to carpet bomb them back to the Stone Age, and then send in our boys to 'clean up' that which the carpet bombs could not. How much money, time, and most importantly how many lives would we waste before the Japanese finally gave up from trying to hurt the USA? Seems to me that the next 10 years would be pretty shit without the A Bomb.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 00:48 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: |
Talk like what? Do you think I'm dancing with joy when I think of all those dead Japanese, that such slaughter warms my heart? No. And its a damn shame that we even had to begin contemplating fire bombing entire cities, let alone use A Bombs. But again I ask, how many more would have died if we did not use them? How long would that war have gone on? |
how many would have died?
probably some maximum of 50 thousand people. (military from both sides)
how long would that war have gone on?
probably another 1 year, 2 at most.
but the truth is the war ended 3 days after the nagasaki strike, and the truth is that 250 thousand japanese innocent civilians died in the blink of an eye, and the few that survived to tell the story, lost everything they knew and everyone they loved, the only thing they gained was cancer, radiations burns and genetic abnormalities.
at the time it was clear for the U.S. that it wouldn't take much time to win over japan using "old fashioned" tactics, but they wanted to test they're new weapon on a real life sitution.
in fact acording to your arguments it was much more logical to drop 2 or 3 nukes in iraq that it was in japan, because, you see, iraq war is far from over, if it will ever be over, there are more than a hundred people dying every single day due to suicide bombers, and that's the ones we heard about in the news.
when this war ends, the death tool will make both japan's nuclear strikes seems like child play, so tell me, would you justify a nuclear strike in iraq?
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 00:54 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: |
We are facing a fanatical enemy who has proven that he would rather fight to the death than surrender, even if absolute defeat was imminent, just so that he could hurt us (Iwo Jima anyone?). The only way aside from using an atomic bomb to stop the Japanese threat is to carpet bomb them back to the Stone Age, and then send in our boys to 'clean up' that which the carpet bombs could not. How much money, time, and most importantly how many lives would we waste before the Japanese finally gave up from trying to hurt the USA? Seems to me that the next 10 years would be pretty shit without the A Bomb. |
that's exactly what we're facing now in iraq and against ismalic terror groups, so why didn't we nuked them already?
P.S: and I'm not criticizing "you", I'm criticizing your goverments past and present actions, in fact that's what I think the problem was back then, your goverment saw japanese society as the enemy, instead of the japanese politics and military tactics.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 01:02 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | tainted4ever wrote: |
Talk like what? Do you think I'm dancing with joy when I think of all those dead Japanese, that such slaughter warms my heart? No. And its a damn shame that we even had to begin contemplating fire bombing entire cities, let alone use A Bombs. But again I ask, how many more would have died if we did not use them? How long would that war have gone on? |
how many would have died?
probably some maximum of 50 thousand people. (military from both sides)
how long would that war have gone on?
probably another 1 year, 2 at most.
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I think at least a million would have died on both sides form combat casualties, starvation, and disease. Not only that, I think it would also take many more decades for Japan to recover from the complete devastation that would be visited upon it.
| Ronhrin wrote: |
but the truth is the war ended 3 days after the nagasaki strike, and the truth is that 250 thousand japanese innocent civilians died in the blink of an eye, and the few that survived to tell the story, lost everything they knew and everyone they loved, the only thing they gained was cancer, radiations burns and genetic abnormalities.
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No one ever said war was a pretty business. Those civilians would be just as dead from shrapnel and napalm, just it would take many more resources and a lot more time
| Ronhrin wrote: |
at the time it was clear for the U.S. that it wouldn't take much time to win over japan using "old fashioned" tactics, but they wanted to test they're new weapon on a real life sitution.
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Again I disagree with you. Taking over Japan with old fashioned tactics would be anything but pleasant. They were a fanatical enemy who would rather die fighting than surrender.
| Ronhrin wrote: |
in fact acording to your arguments it was much more logical to drop 2 or 3 nukes in iraq that it was in japan, because, you see, iraq war is far from over, if it will ever be over, there are more than a hundred people dying every single day due to suicide bombers, and that's the ones we heard about in the news.
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Now, that would be stupid, because how many American's have died in Iraq. 3000? 4000? I feel sorry to say this, I personally am very sorry for what is happening to the Iraqi's, but the average American doesn't give a fuck about them. Hell, here they've stopped reporting civilian Iraqi casualties, and only list American deaths. Basically: no one gives a fuck about the Iraqi's here. I do, shit man they're people just like you and me, but to the average American they're just another sandnigger, and our soldiers are more important.
Point being, Iraq compared to Japan in military casualties is a drop in the ocean. So we wouldn't be saving lives by dropping a nuke, nooo we would just prove to the world that we are genocidal maniacs.
Except we are. Hundreds of thousands are dead because of our greedy neocons, and that is a matter of national shame for people who see past the war on terror bullshit that our inbreds spout out on a regular basis over at Capitol Hill.
| Ronhrin wrote: |
when this war ends, the death tool will make both japan's nuclear strikes seems like child play, so tell me, would you justify a nuclear strike in iraq?
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No, I would not because:
The casualty counts in between Iraq and a conventional war in Japan are not nearly the same, and will not be.
| Ronhrin wrote: | | tainted4ever wrote: |
We are facing a fanatical enemy who has proven that he would rather fight to the death than surrender, even if absolute defeat was imminent, just so that he could hurt us (Iwo Jima anyone?). The only way aside from using an atomic bomb to stop the Japanese threat is to carpet bomb them back to the Stone Age, and then send in our boys to 'clean up' that which the carpet bombs could not. How much money, time, and most importantly how many lives would we waste before the Japanese finally gave up from trying to hurt the USA? Seems to me that the next 10 years would be pretty shit without the A Bomb. |
that's exactly what we're facing now in iraq and against ismalic terror groups, so why didn't we nuked them already?
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Like I said, the scale of the two conflicts is completely different
| Ronhrin wrote: |
P.S: and I'm not criticizing "you", I'm criticizing your goverments past and present actions, in fact that's what I think the problem was back then, your goverment saw japanese society as the enemy, instead of the japanese politics and military tactics.
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Cool  Thing is, countries in WWII were so dedicated to the war effort that politics and military went hand in hand with society. Without the willpower of the people in society to endure and fight back, and to put 100% of everything they had into the war effort, no country could prevail in WWII. Thats at least the way the US saw Japan as: a multitude of people 100% behind their govt. and military, whose goal was to damage the US.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 01:17 Post subject: |
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I agree with you to a point, but there's something I disagree, imo iraq civilians are far more danger than japanese civilians where, my point is this, back then, if the U.S. had invaded japan, I seriously can't picture those civilians grabbing a gun and fighting back, they would run away for sure, and in iraq, the situation is far more complicated, anyone who can put their hands on a weapon will fight back. the problem in iraq is that they are fighting agaisnt us while they are killing each other, that never happened in japan, to them we where the only enemy. in iraq they don't know who the enemy is, and the few ones that lay down her arms and embrace the invasion of their country will probably get killed in the next suicide bomb attack.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 01:22 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | I agree with you to a point, but there's something I disagree, imo iraq civilians are far more danger than japanese civilians where, my point is this, back then, if the U.S. had invaded iraq, I seriously can't picture those civilians grabbing a gun and fighting back, they would run away for sure, and in iraq, the situation is far more complicated, anyone who can put their hands on a weapon will fight back. the problem in iraq is that they are fighting agaisnt us while they are killing each other, that never happened in japan, to them we where the only enemy. in iraq they don't know who the enemy is, and the few ones that lay down her arms and embrace the invasion of their country will probably get killed in the next suicide bomb attack. |
Well then, I guess its all a matter of opinion You see, I can imagine a 12 year old Japanese kid running towards a tank with satchel charges just as easily as I can imagine a raving suicide bomber blowing himself up in front of a checkpoint in Iraq. Both societies were violent, and fanatical.
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 02:41 Post subject: |
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| Parallax_ wrote: | | -=Cartoon=- wrote: | The British/Usa were pounding Germany
The Germans were bombing the British
The Italians were bombing Ethiopia
The Japanese were fucking up Civilians left right and Centre
Personal View : The japanese were fucking deranged ... if anyone deserved it.. they did |
Sorry, I don't play your key notes. No one but the US dropped a nuclear fucking bomb on so many civilian targets. Compared to everyone else it was off the scale to say it mildly. |
One night of "regular" firebombing killed more people than the nuke bomb....
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 02:57 Post subject: |
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and can we stop talking comparing 2007 to 1945 ?????
The world was vastly diff .. the govs were vastly diff .
Every gov in the world was just as fucked... but in a diff way... look at the war in china vs japan.
Until japan bombed pearl harbour no one really gave 2 shits about china.. (Well the soviets KINDA did in a small scale with operation zet.. althou they had other motives there)
just read about some of the shit the japanese were doing to ALL civilians (be it chinese.. australian.. anything) ... no one in ww2 came close to what they were doing.
WW2 for the japanese did NOT start when they bombed pearl harbour.. thats just when the rest of the world woke up and gave a rats arse.
War is shit.. however sometimes necessary
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Parallax_
VIP Member
Posts: 6422
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Aug 2007 10:06 Post subject: |
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In a historical perspectice it was wrong to drop the nuke, you can't go around that no matter how you debate. Can't believe someone actually think that was right to do.
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poullou
Posts: 1746
Location: Internet Express
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