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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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 Posted: Mon, 15th Oct 2007 23:04 Post subject: |
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Why not? I like to think that my being here on Earth will somehow help the population (in that way I don't have to feel I'm useless  )
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Mon, 15th Oct 2007 23:47 Post subject: |
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| FreeDiver wrote: |
because not only that im eating a salad with my steak,but while eating the steak,I feel sorry for the cow. |
I love meat, especially bacon :drool:
btw, why is this in the bitching session? would be better in general discussion |
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| Posted: Mon, 15th Oct 2007 23:52 Post subject: |
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I'm not religious person, so I would disagree with you, but I'm sure that if we weren't meant to eat meat we probably wouldn't. As Jenny said we evolved because of proteins and essential amino acid that meat contains, thus the animals are here with purpose to help us evolve in something greater. And I doubt that aliens would bother coming here, we aren't interesting that much in this period of time, in a couple of million years if we don't eradicate ourselves, thats another story...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Oct 2007 23:00 Post subject: |
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| X_Dror wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | Why not? I like to think that my being here on Earth will somehow help the population (in that way I don't have to feel I'm useless ) |
And what if aliens will come and decide that your purpose is to serve as intergalactic waste?
My point is, that we can't just say that this is their purpose. Basically it's not very 'humane' to eat them, but we need to eat them, so we pretty much don't have a lot of choice.
For some reason, I believe that this whole thinking of 'Their purpose is to be eaten by men' is actually religious. It's like implying ' God made them so that we could eat them'.
Dunno, I just don't like that, lol. |
[/q]
It would seem a religious right to some egocentric people who viewed man/bible as the second most important thing in the universe. Same men who think god made women to serve them.
A lot of religious lifesyles don't eat meat. Some Sihks, Hindu, buddist, Hari Krishna. Those religions that have to do with reincarnation.
I am a total evolutionist when it comes to meat eating. Men evolved to eat meat because it gave them a advantage. Food was hard to come by and there is more fat in meat.
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Oct 2007 23:43 Post subject: |
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Most vegetarians will agree that we needed it in the past. But what now? We've got vitamins and all of these omega3 and whatever. Why do we still need to eat meat?
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Oct 2007 23:44 Post subject: |
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Because it taste soooo good 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Oct 2007 23:52 Post subject: |
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| X_Dror wrote: | | Most vegetarians will agree that we needed it in the past. But what now? We've got vitamins and all of these omega3 and whatever. Why do we still need to eat meat? |
look at the obese people in the u.s.. If their intelligence is the evolutionary benchmark, we dont. |
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 00:40 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | X_Dror wrote: | | Most vegetarians will agree that we needed it in the past. But what now? We've got vitamins and all of these omega3 and whatever. Why do we still need to eat meat? |
look at the obese people in the u.s.. If their intelligence is the evolutionary benchmark, we dont. |
One of the primary causes of obesity is over consumption of sugar and it's derivatives. Where does sugar come from...
If you don't eat meat you have to supplement the missing nutrients in some way, the same with any food group. The bioavailability just isn't up to par with consuming it the natural way however.
Technically you could take artificial supplements for every required vitamin, mineral, essential amino acid and organic metal, then consume empty calories for energy. But you won't be very healthy and your digestive system will be pathetically inefficient.
The problem with being a vegetarian is that it neglects certain biological processes, which over time become almost inactive. While thats not an issue in modern society, with supplements and specialist food readily available. If a situation were to arise where there was a shortage of food, they would be the first to suffer.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 00:58 Post subject: |
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| pistolshrimp wrote: |
The portion labels are fucked too. For example everyone eats a whole can of soup but if you look at the nutritional info it is based on 1/2 a can. |
Yeah they love doing that, pisses me off!
12 grams of fat is nothing, you must be stick thin!
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
Last edited by AnimalMother on Wed, 17th Oct 2007 01:00; edited 1 time in total
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 01:45 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | pistolshrimp wrote: |
The portion labels are fucked too. For example everyone eats a whole can of soup but if you look at the nutritional info it is based on 1/2 a can. |
Yeah they love doing that, pisses me off!
12 grams of fat is nothing, you must be stick thin! |
Well I lied a bit. 12 is my goal but I know I go up to 15 grams. On a bad day I do no more than 30 grams. I don't binge. If I do it is a bowl of cherrios or 1 cup of cottage cheese.
NO I am not thin unfortunately.
You know what really pisses me off. Different brands have different portion amounts. Like bread. If it is higher fat they give it for you for 1 slice. Most bread is for 2 slices. I looked at potato salad portion is for 1 Tspn. It was something like 8 grams of fat. That is poison. I looked at a everyday bran small sized muffin had 34 grams of fat. I can't afford to eat that muffin.
Some of the fat content of meat.
Beef
Rib eye Steak is 10 grams of fat for only 3 ounces Most people eat 7 ounces.
tenderloin steak is 9 grams of fat for 3 ounces.
Extra lean ground beef 14 grams/3 ounces
Lamb
leg 3 ounce = 7 grams fat
loin chop 3 ounce = 8 grams fat
Ribs 3 ounce is 23 grams of fat
chicken
dark meak 3 ounces = 8 grams fat
light meat 3 ounces = 4 grams fat
turkey
dark meat 3 oz = 6 grams fat
light meat 3 oz = 3 grams fat
Duck
meat 3 oz = 14 grams fat
meat with skin = 34 grams fat.
Processee meat
chicken one slice is 1 gram fat
turkey one slice 1 grams fat
turkey bologna one slice = 4 grams fat
salami = 3 grams fat
beef bologna = 8 grams.
1 beef frankfurter is 16 grams of fat / light frank = 7 grams
Sausage 2 oz = 16-22 grams of fat.
Meat also accumulated toxins that are in the environment plus antibiotic from farming.
Really if you look at this you can see how people eat way too much meat.
My veggie burger is 5 grams fat for a whole 75 g patty plus it has fiber so it stays longer with you. Protein is 11 grams. Has 6 % calcium and 20% for Iron. Bad thing is that it has soy in it which has a lot of estrogen. I was trying to get pregnant and had to cut it out of my diet. It is shocking all the processed food that are high in estrogen but estrogen is never listed.
Last edited by pistolshrimp on Wed, 17th Oct 2007 03:10; edited 1 time in total
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 02:23 Post subject: |
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I'm lucky I can eat what ever I want to eat and put on no weight. I'm not the healthiest eater but I do love my veg. I prefer it steamed too. I can be happy with just a bowl of steamed broccoli with nothing on it.
But the human body is designed to have a little meat and plenty of fruit, veg and a few nuts.
As for food we need to regress a whole lot, eat a diet closer to what we would have if we were still hunter gatherers. I'm lucky as I can find the time to cook and I love cooking. Theres no way on this earth I would eat overly processed ready meals. I just hate the fact that they load them with salt and fat to disguise the taste. Disgusting I feel, to use cheap ingredients and then sell it at a price that would give you a much tastier meal and a whole lot more in quantity as well as quality if you made it from scratch.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 02:24 Post subject: |
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Listen.
Vegetarianism is an either or case.
Either you eat dead animals or fish. Or you don't.
Which makes you a carnivore (omnivore in most cases) or a vegetarian, respectively. There is nothing in-between, that is just a bunch of idiotic excuses "Oh I eat chicken sometimes and fish aren't animals the same way cows are blah".
I also have trouble with these so called "ethical" vegetarians that dress in leather shoes and take the moral highground in arguments.
The best moment of irony was this chick who was eating candy with gelatin content and calling me a murderer for eating a döner-kebab.
I do however highly respect those who do it all the way. Who stick by their principles, and don't do it because "It's the latest thing we do in our spoilt west-world hip chiq world".
I also think fisk should be unbanned.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 03:02 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | I'm lucky I can eat what ever I want to eat and put on no weight. I'm not the healthiest eater but I do love my veg. I prefer it steamed too. I can be happy with just a bowl of steamed broccoli with nothing on it.
But the human body is designed to have a little meat and plenty of fruit, veg and a few nuts.
As for food we need to regress a whole lot, eat a diet closer to what we would have if we were still hunter gatherers. I'm lucky as I can find the time to cook and I love cooking. Theres no way on this earth I would eat overly processed ready meals. I just hate the fact that they load them with salt and fat to disguise the taste. Disgusting I feel, to use cheap ingredients and then sell it at a price that would give you a much tastier meal and a whole lot more in quantity as well as quality if you made it from scratch. |
Sometimes making from scratch is buy in bulk and freeze it. Esp with pasta and sauces. You know exactly what is in it when you do it from scratch. Salt is huge in processed foods. Same with canned goods.
Oh and meat/FISH
Cod, Flounder, Haddock, Snappper white meat fish are about 1 gram of fat per 3 ounces. I eat a lot of these but apparently you should only eat white fish, like tuna 2 times a week max because of mercury poisoning. Causes birth defects.
Salmon (3 ounces)
Atlantic 6 grams fat
Chinook 9 grams of fat.
I do have guilt when I eat fish because I know our salmon numbers are constantly underestimated. Plus there is the whole farmed salmon hurt the environment.
No wonder people can't make healthy decisions when it comes to food. You have to try to balance nutrition, toxins, bacteria levels, religion, prices, taste, and moral decisions based on animal rights and slaughter practices, prion diseases. Oh, and then you have a overwhelming amount of other people, like parents and mother in laws throwing their opinions at you of what you decide to stalk your house with that are in direct conflict with what YOU are trying to DO. Plus now throw body image and food in there and you are really fucked. It becomes awfully easy to give up and eat nothing because everything can become so overwhelming.
That was why I got so pissed when I was travelling with my family and my mom threw out my orange juice and some of my fruit. I had to hid it in my suitcase. I left for a walk 2 days before I left and my aunt packed my suitcase while I was out. She found 2 apples and they were gone when I came back. I really needed those 300 cal's. They murdered my banana btw.
Nuts are good for guys. Helps the prostate gland. Same as tomatoes.
When I eat I 'try' to balance all my issues.
I wear leather but I don't eat veal because it is an unethical meat and because it is beef. Beef is high fat which means I can eat a whole lot less during the day if I am going to eat something beef at night. I don't have to deal with Pamala Anderson and her whole KFC chicken thing because I wouldn't touch KFC chicken. I do eat some baked /grilled chicken tho. Not organic. I have always wondered about the chickens treatment in life.
/feels guilt for eating chicken and turkey. Poor turkey bird.
@dominae
Yes lets not forget gelatin. Found in jello and marshmellows.
Last edited by pistolshrimp on Wed, 17th Oct 2007 03:21; edited 1 time in total
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 03:20 Post subject: |
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Fruitarians, now they're fucked up people.
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_SiN_
Megatron
Posts: 12108
Location: Cybertron
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 08:12 Post subject: |
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Like Jenni, i can also eat pretty much whatever i want and not get fat..
Watercooled 5950X | AORUS Master X570 | Asus RTX 3090 TUF Gaming OC | 64Gb RAM | 1Tb 970 Evo Plus + 2Tb 660p | etc etc
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 13:34 Post subject: |
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metabolisms sucks
I eat very little.
Like a meal a day and it doesn't help me. 
Though I'm told alcohol has a major part in it
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 13:46 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | Lutzifer wrote: | | X_Dror wrote: | | Most vegetarians will agree that we needed it in the past. But what now? We've got vitamins and all of these omega3 and whatever. Why do we still need to eat meat? |
look at the obese people in the u.s.. If their intelligence is the evolutionary benchmark, we dont. |
One of the primary causes of obesity is over consumption of sugar and it's derivatives. Where does sugar come from...
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Well, you re turning the problem upside down. The main reason for obesity is a low metabolic rate combined with overconsumption of calories (i.e. not enough exercise and low fat burning). Also sugar is always blamed for child-obesity which might be true there, but with adults its much more often an intake of too much fat (the examples of superfat people that have problems with movement that i know of all ate way too much meat...).
| Quote: | If you don't eat meat you have to supplement the missing nutrients in some way, the same with any food group. The bioavailability just isn't up to par with consuming it the natural way however.
Technically you could take artificial supplements for every required vitamin, mineral, essential amino acid and organic metal, then consume empty calories for energy. But you won't be very healthy and your digestive system will be pathetically inefficient.
The problem with being a vegetarian is that it neglects certain biological processes, which over time become almost inactive. While thats not an issue in modern society, with supplements and specialist food readily available. If a situation were to arise where there was a shortage of food, they would be the first to suffer. |
There is only some truth in that statement. As a vegan with a decent vegetable diet you need no artificial supplements and the often quoted vitamin B12 deficiancy is a problem that is also found in meat-eaters, stemming from a problem with the intrinsic factor that aids the consumption and is not based on the dietary differences.
Most of the "facts" supporting the notion that vegetarianism is bad for you are pretty old and coming from a society that mainly consumes meat, and you see that in the biased opinions coming from nutrition-experts and in the research that is conducted.
Nearly all concerns i know of about vegetarian diets have been adressed and while a bad vegetarian diet can cause problems a normal carnivorous diet also poses health risks (e.g. colon cancer). Just look at societies that like india where vegetarianism is way more common for example and how few problems they encounter. Nowadays there are even a few well documented cases of vegan upbringing that didnt cause problems for the children.
In my opinion it s not really bad to eat meat, as it has its dietary benefits, especially if you have high calory needs, but most people just eat too much.
A reduction of the meat-intake isnt only healthier in most cases but it also reduces all the environmental problem that are caused by the meat-industry. With less grain going to the cows, starvation in the rest of the world could also be reduced or prevented. |
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 15:30 Post subject: |
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Less grain going to cattle won't make any difference to world hunger. It will just lead more farmers going to the wall.
Europe were burning massive food stocks just to keep prices stable. It was too expensive to export them to 3rd world countries.
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 16:12 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | Less grain going to cattle won't make any difference to world hunger. It will just lead more farmers going to the wall.
Europe were burning massive food stocks just to keep prices stable. It was too expensive to export them to 3rd world countries. |
look at where cattle are produced and how much energy is lost in the process of feeding cows compared to the energy in the grain and you ll get to a different opinion. As fo rthe european agricultural politics, they are fucked up beyond recognition anyways. When the cold war was still in effect it was a measure to insure maximum production capabilites and independence in case of a war, so it made sense to throw money away for some added security. But nowadays, it s about the farmers-lobby trying to help themselves to more money. In germany most small farmers are going bankrupt slowly but surely and the large mass-production farms are taking all the subsidized money they can get. But that is a totally different discussion...
Face it, less meat-production, especially in countries that only export the meat to the rich countries and in doing so endager the own populace, because there is less to feed them, would make a differen. Not to mention the greenhouse-gas-emissions and soil / water pollution that come with meat-mass-production.
Here is a nice blog-entry from a vegan, that tries to argue for not eating meat in a similar fashion as the above, it might give you some more insight into the argument
http://millionsofmouths.com/blog/nfblog/?p=104
edit: even if meat-consumption would be reduced, that doesnt automatically feeds the world, as even in countries that have ample amounts of food being produced, it doesnt reach the starving ones in the country. So the above isnt a good argument per se, but it is a good starting point to challenge the mind-set of people regarding world-hunger and the wrong distribution of food & wealth on the planet imho...
www.psygamer.net :::: 
Last edited by Lutzifer on Wed, 17th Oct 2007 16:16; edited 1 time in total |
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 16:15 Post subject: |
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Lutz, are you really a vegan? How do you do it?
From what I know, vegans dont eat anything produced by animals right?
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 16:29 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | Lutz, are you really a vegan? How do you do it?
From what I know, vegans dont eat anything produced by animals right? |
i try to be, but i m not one of the hardcore ethically-motivated vegans. It was more of an accident really. I liked to eat meat, but in my early 20ies i noticed i had problems digesting it (feeling weak and fucked up after eating it). Then i slowly reduced my meat-intake till i practically couldnt eat it anymore and was disgusted of the smell. Some years later my then girlfriend tried a non-dairy diet and i drank soy-milk for some time so i started reading up on the dairy-issues. I stumbled upon the www.notmilk.com website with lots of studies showing the health-risks of dairy products. That was my starting point for veganism. I only eat dairy-stuff when i m at parties or at my parents place because of convenience. But as i said i m no hardliner. But i also believe that people who eat meat only once a week and refrain from eating dairy products might be better off health-wise =)
edit: the vegan zombie => grains thingy comes from a joke i read at bash.org which always cracks me up
* veganzombie has joined #uc
<veganzombie> Graaaaaaaiiiiinnssss.....
* veganzombie has quit IRC (Quit: Graaaaaaaiiiiinnssss.....) |
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 17:02 Post subject: |
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LOL, GRAiiiiiiiins!
I can barely pull througha day without meat. Nothing makes me full but meat (or a lot of cheese). LOL, if dairy and meat aren't healthy and I almost never drink water, I wonder what became of my internal organs. Sometimes when my mother is not including meat in dinner/lunch, I can even go out in the middle of the night to the nearest hamburger restaurant (a quality one ofc) and get some meat to eat.
Without it I'll feel hungry all night long.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2007 17:50 Post subject: |
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Lutzifer you killed your own argument on the whole econmics thing. I agree with you 100% on the reducing meat. But that would be for adults only, for children its a whole new ballgame. I think the largest danger from food is this mass produced crap that people seem so willing to buy. These ready meals pretty much disgust me and I cannot imagine living on microwave meals like some people do. The "I've not got time" argument just doesn't cut any ice with me. Make time to eat a decent meal once a day. It would only take an hour or so. I was in a supermarket the other day and I was stunned to see that they're now selling ready washed potatoes. I mean are people really that pushed for time they can't find time to wash a couple of potatoes. No I call it laziness myself. Yes get potatoes that have most of the soil off them as you can, you get more to the pound that way. But washed potatoes sheesh.
At the weekend I get a load of fruit and veg as well as meat and some fish and I generally make a few meals and freeze them. I love cooking with my daughter and I find cooking as well as eating a very social affair. I try at least one meal a day sat down at the table if I can manage it. Although its difficult as my daugher has all these clubs she goes to. I'm also not against sweets for kids. A packet a day is what they're allowed and it does no harm. Its when these lazy fuckers that can't find time to cook a decent meal for their kids and let them shovel crisps, chocolate and burgers with chips down their neck all day is when I get angry.
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Simple isn't it?
