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Nui
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 Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 13:26 Post subject: variable refreshrate monitors g-sync, freeSync and hdmi vrr |
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I've got two questions.
Given typical monitors today. Shouldn't any variable sync technology show diminishing results the higher the refreshrate the monitor supports?
The whole problems of fixed refreshrates is that the source has to adhere to a fixed schedule, introducing wait times and inconsistent frame times or with fps>refrehrate problems like tearing. But hypothetically speaking none of these problems would actually matter if you had a 10.000Hz monitor, because the timing difference would fall below any persons threshold. But even 144 and 165Hz provide more than twice the number of timings over typical 60Hz monitors. Is the difference to variable sync still significant?
And do we know anything about HDMI vrr yet?
All beside the point that I would use these technologies out of principle alone. Plus with them I can still hope that BFI or rolling scan be implemented somewhat reliably - otherwise you'd ideally want to detect repeated frames and omit them if that doesn't cause visible flicker.
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 16:20 Post subject: Re: variable refreshrate monitors g-sync, freeSync and hdmi |
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| Nui wrote: | I've got two questions.
Given typical monitors today. Shouldn't any variable sync technology show diminishing results the higher the refreshrate the monitor supports?
The whole problems of fixed refreshrates is that the source has to adhere to a fixed schedule, introducing wait times and inconsistent frame times or with fps>refrehrate problems like tearing. But hypothetically speaking none of these problems would actually matter if you had a 10.000Hz monitor, because the timing difference would fall below any persons threshold. But even 144 and 165Hz provide more than twice the number of timings over typical 60Hz monitors. Is the difference to variable sync still significant?
And do we know anything about HDMI vrr yet?
All beside the point that I would use these technologies out of principle alone. Plus with them I can still hope that BFI or rolling scan be implemented somewhat reliably - otherwise you'd ideally want to detect repeated frames and omit them if that doesn't cause visible flicker. |
Okay, this is a hard one because I cut my teeth on this subject when I bought my own monitor a year and a half ago and I had the exact same questions.
Let me address your points one by one:
| Quote: | | The whole problems of fixed refreshrates is that the source has to adhere to a fixed schedule, introducing wait times and inconsistent frame times or with fps>refrehrate problems like tearing. |
Well yes and no. It depends whether the game locks the fps to 30/60 or not. If a game is 30/60fps-locked, and the hardware can maintain it, you'll get no or short wait times and a consistent framerate - at the expense of a faster framerate, of course. If it's not locked, then yes, a game can feel "drunk", unresponsive and weird if your frames lie just above or below the refreshrate (say 40-50fps or 70-80fps when you got a 60Hz monitor).
| Quote: | | But hypothetically speaking none of these problems would actually matter if you had a 10.000Hz monitor, because the timing difference would fall below any persons threshold. |
Hypothetically, if you had a 10.000Hz, screen tearing would be almost unnoticeable either  So no sync solution would be needed either.
| Quote: | | But even 144 and 165Hz provide more than twice the number of timings over typical 60Hz monitors. Is the difference to variable sync still significant? |
Variable sync pretty much requires a fast refresh rate to work well. Due to the monitor telling the game when to draw its frames (to coincide with monitor refresh-rates), you have the advantage of having zero screen tearing without the disadvantage of being forced to cap or lock fps meaning that a high fps actually FEELS like a high fps. A 144Hz monitor will lets you display all 144 frames if your system can handle it, for example.
If you had a 144Hz monitor without gsync and without using vsync, you'd still get screen-tearing but since the refresh rate is over twice as high, the tears would be less noticeable since the frames draw much faster.
If you had a 144Hz without gsync but use vsync ... this is where it gets interesting and this is where your question goes to, right? Instead of the monitor telling your graphics card when to render, your system would render at its own pace and simply feed the monitor full frames each time it refreshed.
Now, above, I mentioned how vsync works worst when you don't have a capped fps and have a framerate that is just above or below the refreshrate. With 144Hz, you got this exact same problem (say fps 100-180fps) BUT since most modern games render at 50-70fps on mid-range systems, you fall quite a bit below 144fps so you'll avoid the weird sluggish feeling since the space between each frame will almost always be two or three refresh "ticks" which isn't bad. However, if you got a very beefy system, you pretty much need Gsync or Freesync to avoid the same old problems that vsync has with 60Hz monitors. Sure, they're a little less obvious since a high refresh rate hides the flaws a bit better but still ...
Ironically, games capped at 60fps which used to be great for vsync actually made it worse for 144Hz monitors since 144 is not at all dividable by 60 so if you turned on vsync on a 144Hz monitor inside a 60fps capped game, you'd get a weird uneven result since the time between rendered frames would be very uneven as well.
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Nui
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 17:02 Post subject: Re: variable refreshrate monitors g-sync, freeSync and hdmi |
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Appreciated 
| red_avatar wrote: | | Quote: | | But hypothetically speaking none of these problems would actually matter if you had a 10.000Hz monitor, because the timing difference would fall below any persons threshold. |
Hypothetically, if you had a 10.000Hz, screen tearing would be almost unnoticeable either So no sync solution would be needed either. |
Screen tearing only occurs if a frame is rendered while it is being uploaded to the monitor (*replace with accurate wording*), so there has to be a low frame time compared to the refresh rate. So tearing wouldn't just be unnoticeable, but probably nonexistent.
But yes, it is exactly my point, that when only considering tearing/sluggishness such a monitor would suffer no problems. The only question here would be, what would be enough?
| red_avatar wrote: | | Variable sync pretty much requires a fast refresh rate to work well. |
Ah yes, now that you say it, its obvious that a monitor has to be able to draw images in quick succession if var.sync is to work. D'uh
Technically a monitor could refuse to accept high refrehrate signals, but that doesnt make much sense 
| red_avatar wrote: | | If you had a 144Hz monitor without gsync and without using vsync, you'd still get screen-tearing but since the refresh rate is over twice as high, the tears would be less noticeable since the frames draw much faster. |
I can't remember the last time I experienced tearing when being below the refreshrate. I had the misfortune of this when playing with some emulators I think 
Anyway, the likelihood of tearing drops with higher refreshrates, because there have to be (at least spurious) low frame times relative to the refreshrate. Unless you increase frame rate of whatever you are displaying.
I only ever consider vsync on my 60Hz display, if I observe tearing. So given my current experience I'd say, my need for vsync would simply diminish.
| red_avatar wrote: | | Ironically, games capped at 60fps which used to be great for vsync actually made it worse for 144Hz monitors since 144 is not at all dividable by 60 so if you turned on vsync on a 144Hz monitor inside a 60fps capped game, you'd get a weird uneven result since the time between rendered frames would be very uneven as well. |
Yeah, I know the effect of an uneven match between fps and refreshrate well. Especially when its constant like displaying 24p on a 60p monitor
Anyway. Please don't tell me you can't set your monitor to 120Hz.
Currently Im not convinced that 144 fps is needed (haven't experienced it yet either). Visually, methods to decrease frame durations during display already have the effect of smoothing and reducing motion blur. These methods usually (philips oled pos901F apparently being an exception) introduce flicker, when the refreshrate is too low. But for me 80 - 100 fps should easily be enough.
But it may feel worse. Plus, such methods present a new problem with var.sync, but it should still be doable.
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Nui
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 17:33 Post subject: Re: variable refreshrate monitors g-sync, freeSync and hdmi |
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 18:53 Post subject: |
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I wonder what vrr does to framepacing and mouse sensitivity, since some games does change depending on fps.
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 19:09 Post subject: |
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from what i understand no pro gamers use any of these technologies, cause they all cause fake frames and isseus and decrease their accuracy in high responsivenes games.
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Nui
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 23:18 Post subject: |
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| PickupArtist wrote: | | from what i understand no pro gamers use any of these technologies, cause they all cause fake frames and isseus and decrease their accuracy in high responsivenes games. |
Input lag is another thing. I can't imagine how quick of responses they're used to if they can notice such. It's like, nano seconds lol |
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Nui
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| Posted: Wed, 13th Sep 2017 23:55 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | | Input lag is another thing. I can't imagine how quick of responses they're used to if they can notice such. It's like, nano seconds lol |
Perhaps evolutionarily related to the audio cable connoisseurs
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| Posted: Thu, 14th Sep 2017 23:48 Post subject: |
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Can I have a question about blur reduction, since it's somewhat connected to vrr?
So there is this thing called backlight strobing (great example here)
 Spoiler: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0jlXUpG32Y |
It reduces the motion blur by flickering like crt. My question is - since most monitors are 144 or 120hz now:
-Can strobing(ulmb, lighboost etc) be set at any refresh rate like 60, 75,85,120.
-What are the steps for selecting refresh rate on 144hz/120 display.
-If set to 120hz(and strobing too), with framerate below that, locked 60 with half refresh rate vsync, how would strobing behave? Monitor refreshes and strobes at 120hz (or 85 or 144 whatever) but framerate is constantly lower at whatever level (example locked 60)... what the effect would be?
-Is there any difference between Tn/ips/va when it comes to strobing modes? If no, then va with backlight strobing sounds like a great match.
edit:
Leaving this here. Seems that most va+lmb are 30"+ screens except for venerable FG2421 which is not sold anymore 
https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/120hz-monitors/
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 00:14 Post subject: |
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Just try the CFG70 already. I've seen all your posts clogging reddit, [H], overclock...
For nth time it doesn't have any black smearing, but some purple overshoot in certain transitions. With and without strobing that is. It sucks but there really is no alternative atm. Slow dark transitions is what's causing the flicker you see in dark scenes, the CFG70 doesn't do that.
Colours are also more saturated, more than the U2417H.
Strobing is only good when framerate=refreshrate otherwise forget it. Improper strobing amplifies stuttering and can cause multiple image artifacts. CFG70 has proper 4 zone single strobing @100,120,144hz and almost no crosstalk. The FG2421 colours are worse than the iiyama colours you would probably hate it so leave it be.
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 00:20 Post subject: |
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You don't have to make it personal... and I've deleted most reddit and H posts after getting u2417h.
That strobing genuinely got me curious.
That samsung have many problems as it is... Including blurry text, dead pixels due to curve, purple ghosting and the list goes on. That's not saying I won't try it anyway.
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 00:26 Post subject: |
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I had a monitor with strobing, it was an uber-shitty TN panel but motion is awesome because it is completely sharp but you really need to be able to hold at least 100fps stable.
There is simply no monitor without at least 2-3 major issues or downgrades compared to others, no matter the price class. I'm reading these types of forums way too much and 90% of it is a constant complain-o-rama. If you looking for a display it will only prime you for the problems and paralyze you in your decisions.
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 00:38 Post subject: |
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I agree. There are always drawbacks. Gsync looks promising now but it cannot be used with ulmb. So it would be stupid to pay premium for gsync monitor and don't use it because low motion blur mode is better. There are cheaper monitors without gsync that have lmb modes.
About that 100fps - I've found blurbusters forum posts about Benq 60hz and 85hz strobing modes but I still couldn't find the answer. How does it look if fps drops below 100/120/144hz strobing display? It's just blurry again or what?
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 00:43 Post subject: |
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60hz strobing is very flickery and stressful on the eyes, only very few displays can do it, and only few people can stand it. 85Hz is better but still not so great. It is way worse than CRT scanning flicker because the strobe works globally on these displays. If FPS drops while strobing image stays sharp but you get amplified stuttering and the image in motion will start to double/triple etc. the lower the framerate gets. G-sync is great but just so expensive and limited selection of displays. At least the Samsung has FreeSync. Who knows maybe you happen to get AMD card after the 1060 or Nvidia does the unthinkable..
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 00:48 Post subject: |
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Thanks. That is a nice and clear explanation!
Nvidia is just so crappy to not support freesync. Selection of super expensive gsync monitors is just too small.
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Sep 2017 01:22 Post subject: |
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nVidia has never supported anything that would benefit all people that would allow their users outside their ecosystem. Really all started with the acquisition of physx from Ageia and it's been downhill since then.
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