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 Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 13:59 Post subject: Gamepad vs. Mouse & Keyboard |
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One day...
Scientists will prove that using a controller will:
• make you use less brain cells and encouraging an average state of being
• make you more docile and accept failure easier
• make you accept that you can't do complex multi-tasking
• make you behave more like a submissive sheep
• make you always choose the easiest ways and not evolving from challenge
• make you wonder why you press a button and nothing awesome happens in your life
• make you lose your hair
• make your dick smaller
Also, it will be proven that M&Kb will:
• make you more intelligent due to more brain cells and operations being involved in control
• make you more responsive to multi-threads / multi-operations
• make you more present when facing adversities
• make you a dangerous citizen that's anti-docile and has more strength
• make you more attractive to women
• make you even more handsome
• make you able to grow a long beard overnight
• make your dick larger
• make your pects larger
• make your mother-in-law never call or visit you again
• make your wife never asking you to pause while playing an MMO
But, of course, when all this will be disclosed, everything will be too late... The world will be conquered and the gamepad absent-minded users will roam the streets of a matrix world.
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 14:11 Post subject: |
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Can't please everyone. 
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 15:45 Post subject: |
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Problem is none of the controller users will see this to know, as controller users cannot read.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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vurt
Posts: 13824
Location: Sweden
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 17:46 Post subject: |
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Who plays vehicle sims with mouse/keyboard on PC? If you race get a wheel. 
Well other than say arcadey games like GTA with no wheel support. Even then I still usually get top 3 place with keyboard.
I think it's the transfer of the last controller I used a lot, from the SNES, which was digital not analog. So no slight turn, you push left you turn hard left. Learned from F-Zero naturally how to steer with that where tap speed translates to turn speed and crosses over to how keyboard steering works.
I just cannot use analog controllers no matter how hard I try. It always feels like I'm trying to do a thing that something else I already have works way better for in my hands. Doing anything for fine control using my thumbs feels wrong.
Different strokes different folks thing. In my usage for me, trying to use a controller is like typing on a phone. Sure a tiny virtual screen keyboard works, but a fake tiny keyboard for the 2 fingers you have the least dexterity in (thumbs) is less useful than a full keyboard.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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vurt
Posts: 13824
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 17:51 Post subject: |
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I think plenty of people don't bother with wheels or a flight sim setup on PC.. likely most.
I have a specific chair i've modded for flight sims with easy access to the controllers on each side, super comfortable!
For arcade i'm using (soon!) a complete arcade cabinet with Sanwa buttons/joysticks + likely a CRT (just scored one).
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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StEFaN7
Posts: 5865
Location: them swamps
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 18:06 Post subject: |
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the best one is the one ur best with
I can see your soul at the edges of your eyes..
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 18:08 Post subject: |
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See to me the best one is the one that best emulates the thing you are doing, even if I am worst using it. Like the golf one. As I said I never have played golf. So my swing SUCKS. But I enjoy swinging (poorly) a golf club, than flicking my wrist with an index controller and hitting better.
If they made a PC rifle USB thing that worked worth a shit. Id use that in shooters that support it, despite knowing it would make me 20x worse at killing people vs mouse.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 20:08 Post subject: |
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Console players have small dicks?
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 21:26 Post subject: |
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Hey now, it's not only console players! I dont have a console...
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Thu, 18th May 2023 22:05 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | | Problem is none of the controller users will see this to know, as controller users cannot read. |
*
*Hey, it's NOT a malicious laugh, 'tis just funny. |
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dethy
Posts: 3078
Location: Conclave of Shadows
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 00:12 Post subject: |
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This is just silly. There is no debate. You using different tools for different styles of games. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything has to be a nail.
I pretty much now have a complete set of each type of device and I use it for different games regularly for full enjoyment.
My specs:
Ryzen 5950x @ boosting 5ghz, Gigabyte x570 Aorus Master, 32gb G.Skill Trident Neo pc3600 ram, nVidia RTX 5080, SoundBlasterX G6, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 1TB and Hynix m.2 1TB storage SSD. Custom watercooling loop.
Derpsole: Nintendo Switch, Derpstation 5 Pro
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 01:30 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | | Hey now, it's not only console players! I dont have a console... |
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65078
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 01:59 Post subject: |
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We even have a special derp for this!
All kidding aside, I'm actually a bit jealous of all those who can seamlessly use the gamepad with any genre/title whilst relaxing from afar and still thoroughly manage to enjoy their time. My relationship with the chopsticks has been a very troubled one since forever, it was the main reason I never owned a console and likely never will. Well, unless I start suffering from dementia 
There are a few exceptions though, such as 2D platformers designed with the pad in mind (the ones that don't have manual aiming), sports games, and driving sims that require at the very least an analog stick + triggers in order to function correctly. Everything else just strictly belongs to the trusty M&KB kingdom for me, even though PC-centric releases are now sadly an extreme rarity.
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AnarchoS
Posts: 2142
Location: An Archos
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 07:34 Post subject: |
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Problem is that developers sometimes dumb down the game control to be able to sell games for consoles because they use controller,
 Spoiler: | Only time I use a controller is when I fly a drone at work, I use mavic 3 pro with camera, anyone flew their new Avata series drone using virtual goggles, it has a joystick and the controls are great you can use it to fly through thick full speed and the movement is so accurate and smooth, it was a blast to fly, only thing I didn't like about it is the loud high frequency sound it made. I'm used to mavic pro drones that are the quietest commercial drones out there, if there is no wind you can't hear it while it's hovering or moving slow. off topic. |
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 07:37 Post subject: |
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| ixigia wrote: |
There are a few exceptions though, such as 2D platformers designed with the pad in mind (the ones that don't have manual aiming) |
Those work better on a keyboard though  Take a pad in your hands and look at the dpad. How does it work ? You use your thumb over the four little buttons. Now place you hand over the arrow keys on your keyboard. How is the functionality ? You have three fingers at all times ready to press buttons. The idea that platformers are better on pads is a common one, but it was never actually true. Because a keyboard offers the exact same functionality that a dpad has, but with better ergonomics 
You'll always see the phrase "pads were made for gaming" when this discussion comes up online. But in fact, the reality is a bit the complete opposite. Dual stick pads were not made for a particular purpose outside of moving a character in a 3d space. They came up with the rest of the shit along the way. With mouse/keyboard, these office tools - most gaming genres were invented on PC and they were invented specifically around mouse/keyboard. Strategy games, adventure games, sims of any kind, rpgs, shooters, mmos. So you end up with the "office tools" that werent created for gaming - but gaming was created around them.
And also, the modern dual stick implementations mimick the m/kb functionality that was always there for m/kb. A post mortem for The Suffering from back in 2004 even says as much. They were initially designing the game in a "console style", like ocarina of shit was or console gta 3. Lock on aiming with the main controlls you got being moving the character, but the camera being more automated and relying on lock on to shoot enemies. Then they say this style clashed with their more PC oriented gameplay design. So they moved to a mouse/keyboard style of gameplay, where you move with the left sticks and control the camera with the right one - simulating how every 3rd person works on PC since long before they did so on consoles.
Funny how reality actually is if you're actually looking into how things work. Its also why the "3rd person works better on pads" was always complete and demonstrable nonsense, while being probably the most prevalent idea you see in these discussions. When the pads copy the way m/kb works in the dual stick configuration but need layers over layers of assists in order to actually be playable.
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 07:41 Post subject: |
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The real derps are those who use a mouse in RTS games and rotate the camera with the middle mouse button
I will tell you why this is bad. Using X & E, you can still issue click commands with the mouse while rotating. Which is especially helpful in fast paced games where you're micromanaging a lot.
Good luck clicking middle mouse button + M1/M2 at the same time.
| Spoiler: | X & E m a s t e r r a c e |
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 08:35 Post subject: |
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Some games are better with mouse & kb esp when you need precision aiming.
Some games are better with controller esp when you need precision movement (esp vehicule centered).
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 09:25 Post subject: |
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| FireMaster wrote: |
Some games are better with controller esp when you need precision movement. |
That's not the case actually, nearly ever. M/Kb is near universally better, in every genre, because the benefits are not only precision aiming. The binary nature of wsad is also an often overlooked benefit, where you have your fingers over 3 dirrectional buttons at all times and the switch in trajectory is instant as opposed to having deadzones and time for the stick to travel. As are the numerous buttons of the keyboard. Remember that contextual actions were invented due to the lack of buttons, so you will have one button do 3/4/whatever actions that only become available when the game is scripted to. Therefore limiting and automating the design of many games.
Also, besides aiming with a mouse, there's also how you can react to something, how you turn, how you track an emey/situation.
The analogue movement of the left stick is vulgarly overrated and inflated because games that REQUIRE you to do some very specific and weird degree of movement and speed just dont exist. Games are not made that way. So analogue movement remains a fictional advantage that doesnt translate to actual game design. There are m/kb games that are impossible to play on a pad. There is no controller game in existence that cant be played on m/kb. Devs even say as much, there was a GDC conference, i think about PC and console UI design. And the presenter pointed this out, its easier for a dev if he thinks for controller first, because everything can be easily mapped on a mouse/keyboard. But the other way around doesnt apply, if you design for m/kb first.
Other than racing games i can't think of a single instance of 2 sticks being better. Almost every console game ever having assists for everything should be a clear indicator how subpar the dual stick controller is for everything.
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 11:26 Post subject: |
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| AnarchoS wrote: | | Problem is that developers sometimes dumb down the game control to be able to sell games for consoles because they use controller, |
"Sometimes" is an understatement.
Almost all of the AAA games nowadays are dumbed down when it comes to control due to the limits of the gamepad. The camera being the biggest problem.
Heck, look at Jedi Survivor: "This game plays better with a derpad". The controls on PC (M&Kb) are handicapped due to gamepad necessities.
Just imagine a Souls game build 100% for PC. |
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 14:02 Post subject: |
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My incomplete list of cancers that console controllers have infested PC gaming with:
- While holding x press y
- Limit to weapons, abilities, tools etc. you are able to simultaneously carry
- Tap x to do one thing, hold x to do another thing
- Hold x to switch to another four-slot toolbar with a different set of abilities
- Lock-on combat
- Undefeatable camera auto-centering
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StEFaN7
Posts: 5865
Location: them swamps
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 16:03 Post subject: |
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| AnarchoS wrote: | Problem is that developers sometimes dumb down the game control to be able to sell games for consoles because they use controller,
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people need to realise a game needs to be playable even for the casuals...
not every game needs to be with quake tryhard controlls...
its sad but it is how it is, a game needs to sell..
I can see your soul at the edges of your eyes..
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 17:02 Post subject: |
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| Divvy wrote: | My incomplete list of {edited: shit} that console controllers have infested PC gaming with:
- While holding x press y
- Limit to weapons, abilities, tools etc. you are able to simultaneously carry
- Tap x to do one thing, hold x to do another thing
- Hold x to switch to another four-slot toolbar with a different set of abilities
- Lock-on combat
- Undefeatable camera auto-centering |
Amen, brother. ✝ |
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 19:30 Post subject: |
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| Bendi wrote: |
| FireMaster wrote: | Some games are better with mouse & kb esp when you need precision aiming.
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Precision aiming with a gamepad? TF? Why do you think console games have aim assist enabled by default?
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ok granpa put your glasses on and read what I wrote again.
| qqq wrote: | | FireMaster wrote: |
Some games are better with controller esp when you need precision movement. |
That's not the case actually, nearly ever. M/Kb is near universally better, in every genre, because the benefits are not only precision aiming. The binary nature of wsad is also an often overlooked benefit, where you have your fingers over 3 dirrectional buttons at all times and the switch in trajectory is instant as opposed to having deadzones and time for the stick to travel. As are the numerous buttons of the keyboard. Remember that contextual actions were invented due to the lack of buttons, so you will have one button do 3/4/whatever actions that only become available when the game is scripted to. Therefore limiting and automating the design of many games.
Also, besides aiming with a mouse, there's also how you can react to something, how you turn, how you track an emey/situation.
The analogue movement of the left stick is vulgarly overrated and inflated because games that REQUIRE you to do some very specific and weird degree of movement and speed just dont exist. Games are not made that way. So analogue movement remains a fictional advantage that doesnt translate to actual game design. There are m/kb games that are impossible to play on a pad. There is no controller game in existence that cant be played on m/kb. Devs even say as much, there was a GDC conference, i think about PC and console UI design. And the presenter pointed this out, its easier for a dev if he thinks for controller first, because everything can be easily mapped on a mouse/keyboard. But the other way around doesnt apply, if you design for m/kb first.
Other than racing games i can't think of a single instance of 2 sticks being better. Almost every console game ever having assists for everything should be a clear indicator how subpar the dual stick controller is for everything. |
controlling cars and flying vehicules with WASD doesn't give you the same precision as a stick. You have more degrees of control between side and up on a controller simple as.
Degrees of walking/running/driving speed is locked on a kb as well. While it's gradual on a controller. On a button combo masher (DMC, Bayonetta etc) game with zero aiming there isn't really much of an advantage to using mouse & kb.
Last edited by FireMaster on Fri, 19th May 2023 19:39; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 19:34 Post subject: |
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tbh i play all my games with a dancepad(alternatively banana controller) to shit on people for being bad at the game.
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 19:36 Post subject: |
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Even in games like Dark Souls the problem I have with controllers is I can't move my camera while pressing buttons with my thumb. On m+kb, I can do all this simultaneously. I particularly noted having way better situational awareness in the Arkham games with mouse than I could've had with a controller for this reason.
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| Posted: Fri, 19th May 2023 20:09 Post subject: |
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| FireMaster wrote: |
controlling cars and flying vehicules with WASD doesn't give you the same precision as a stick. You have more degrees of control between side and up on a controller simple as.
Degrees of walking/running/driving speed is locked on a kb as well. While it's gradual on a controller. On a button combo masher (DMC, Bayonetta etc) game with zero aiming there isn't really much of an advantage to using mouse & kb. |
True about cars, thats why i singled out racing games. What it does give you is the ability to move the camera 360 degrees while driving in any direction and perform actions, shooting, whatever. Even if a game doesnt have aiming, like those you mentioned, you do have a free controling camera. Any game from any genre that has a free camera that you control freely will be better on m/kb. Its only with fixed camera perspective like the original god of wars, dmc where the mouse is negated where you're left with keyboard only for controls and it becomes the worst choice.
In a brawler game, think even the Arkham games. You have instant awareness and reactions 360 degrees. You dont need to lock on enemies or have copious amounts of magnetism that stick you to enemies, because you can near instantly orient the camera using the mouse to face any enemy. And you can keep track of them while they move. Also in arkham games and spiderman and others, shooting your web or batrope or whatever is always with automated points that the game highlights. Controlling the camera with the mouse you could ditch that. You could shoot a web or rope in mid air without automation because you could aim it where you want.
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