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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24433
Location: Your Mom
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 Posted: Fri, 14th Jul 2023 19:58 Post subject: Cycling: Transgender women barred from female events |
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Some common sense from UCI:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/66203709
| Quote: | Transgender women barred from female events as UCI takes 'precautionary measure
The stance follows a similar decision by British Cycling, with the UCI seeking "to protect the female class".
The UCI said anyone who has transitioned after male puberty could compete in a 'men/open' category.
Female American transgender cyclist Austin Killips won a UCI women's event two months ago.
In the wake of that result, the world body reopened consultation on the issue, saying it heard "the voice of female athletes and their concerns about an equal playing field for competitors".
The UCI has renamed the male category 'men/open' and added "any athlete who does not meet the conditions for participation in women's events will be admitted without restriction". |
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"Thank you to God for making me an Atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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vurt
Posts: 13455
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri, 14th Jul 2023 20:06 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Fri, 14th Jul 2023 21:36 Post subject: |
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Hopefully other sports will follow.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 13:44 Post subject: |
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Did they got their balls removed?
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14081
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 13:49 Post subject: |
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Good. Sporting athletes should be grouped by biological sex not gender.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 14:17 Post subject: |
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Biologically they will be male, but have a testosterone disadvantage.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13437
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 14:25 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:32; edited 3 times in total
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 18:13 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | Good. Sporting athletes should be grouped by biological sex not gender. |
I think they should still be grouped by ability. A female and male with equal talent on say the C tier/class level should be able to play each other.
Sure the top leagues would be all male in most sports, but it is now anyway. They just split them and put them on a different time schedule and segregate them and go 'ignore those others exist, you are the best if we ignore the ones better than you exist".
National Women's Soccer League. You are in the best football player if we ignore MLS exists.
Why is it not the same to go: You are the best football player to exist, if we ignore S tier (or however they would call it) exists.
I mean everyone already knows female soccer league isnt on par with male soccer league, we just 'pretend' they are equal for sake of it so we go can go "You are the best in the world, other than those better than you but they dont count, you play at different times and not together".
Why is that different than class/tier/whatever unisex and pretending the same way? "You are the best, other than s Tier but that doesn't count you play at different times and not together.
(People pretending who is really better doesn't matter, upset about other people that pretend who is really better doesn't matter...to me)
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14081
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 22:04 Post subject: |
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.. to you.
I mean, there are (not talking about the rare cases of intersex people, which obviously do exist) only two biological sexes and both have different strengths and weaknesses based on their biology and if you introduce tiers you'll just have those people with a vag and tits getting way less gold medals and overall wins, since in certain things the majority of them just can't compete with those having a penis. At least the vast majority of them.
No, I think its a good enough system. Not perfect. But good enough. And it suits the vast majority of people.
If people with penises who feel like people with vags feel uncomfortable changing with other people with penises (Which I can understand), lets give them privacy outside the sporting event itself. Different cabins etc.
I understand that there are people who for scientifically valid reasons are born in such a way that they have the body of a certain sex but feel like another. But I don't think that that makes any difference when it comes to sports. It's not about how you feel. Dress as a man, date women, do whatever you like, but at the end of the day, your body is your body, and you're going to have to deal with it. I understand its easy to say for someone like me. But I don't see how declassifying all those people born with vags just because some people born with penises feel like they should have vags, would be a good solution.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 22:38 Post subject: |
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Why I said to me. 
In the end, it's just if you want to be in a group to pretend better people dont exist because you made different sex based leagues so 'less than the actual best can still win gold in something'. Or be in a group to pretend better people dont exist so you can win gold in a different league.
Me personally 'best in' is the best..in it. Best female/male/disabled/whatever is just artificial constraints so people that are actually not best in the world, can gain the best, given the right restraints of who is eligible.
I mean I am the best basketball players in the world. Gold medal worthy. if we phrase it as "Best white male basketball player under 6 foot...that lives on Oaks St with an address ending in 55"
But then again the concept at wanting to be best at arbitrary skills like riding a bike, or kicking a ball is alien to me to start with. So maybe the desire and urge to be able to say you are the best at something, by using a specific denomination restriction to weed out those actually better, so you can say you are the best..isn't as obvious to me as a need.
The fact one is better at it than the other, seems to point to only certain ones should get gold. Best female, and best male, to me really just means "You are #1, at being #2! (well #1 at #1001, as 1000 professional men are better at it)"
Like men are #1 in giving birth, if we divide it by sexes and use only the men's league..it doesn't mean anything.Just means others are better at it, and we need to ignore them to get 'gold' in birthing.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Sat, 13th Jan 2024 22:50; edited 2 times in total
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14081
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 22:48 Post subject: |
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Thing is that there is a natural biological category here that makes it so that for the vast majority of people born in one category they cannot compete with those of another even a their peak. Granted alot of penises wouldn’t be able to compete with peak vags but peak vags will never be able to compete with peak penises in certain areas. Thats just what evolution brought about. It doesn’t mean the one or the other or everything in between is worth less as a human. And it also doesn’t mean peak couleur needs a category of his own just to get a gold medal, I‘m just not good at running and even if I had been running my whole life my slightly shortened achilles tendon just would always be an issue. No problem, I have gold medal in procrastination.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 22:54 Post subject: |
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I didn't say there wasn't a difference.
I was saying why that the urge and need to, and the urge to give 100th place a gold medal saying they are #1, because they can't compete on the level of the pros? is it THAT hard to admit "I am good, but not as good as the best".
It feels a bit like "We all know men are better at sports, but we need to make two winners of best, so it's not misogynistic"
Be like me demanding a middle aged white dude football team, since I am not biologically made to be 6+ foot tall and 250lbs of muscle no matter how I try.
The arbitrary decider comes down to genitals, and not really biological makeup. Because I am just as 'not able to compete' with say basketball players by my biological makeup, as women are.
And some women are WAY better at it than me...SO the rules are convoluted. They ultimately revolve around gender, and not actual biological traits.
To me it smells of the thing most everyone is against "Everyone wins a medal for something" we do to kids and make up categories for the less that the best athletically disposed ones. Just we do it as adults and excuse it.
I guess my point is if females had a thing they dominate in competition wise, and I was really good at it, I wouldn't expect a male version so I can pretend I am the best..knowing Im really not.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 23:01 Post subject: |
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Or middle road, let them cross play in where the overlap is. And separate them out in the top tiers to male and female. But where the skills/ability/physical dispositions overlap (not peak males and not peak females) are, let all them play unisex.
Id wager 85% of the minors to the right before the majors of any sport has equal male and female ability, only where that 'top 1% of men surpass everyone' matters. Seems weird we divide all tiers where they absolutely could be same level of ability against each other.
If you do say, 100m dash in 25 seconds. Race against ANYONE that does that range. Separate them out into gender once they start passing that 15s time. (as the best of the best males will dominate that).
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 23:07 Post subject: |
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You‘d be the best male. Knowing you‘d never be able to compete with the best women. If you ask women in sports they will tell you the same. They know the can‘t compete with the men but they are still proud being the best woman. The women I know who are really into sports watch mens sports as much as womens but they don’t complain about how they are in a different category. Everybody knows this. Just as men wouldn’t be proud winning against women. It just wouldn’t make a lot of sense. (talking about biological men and women obv.)
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 23:16 Post subject: |
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Too much gender pride in it all I say.
Why not be proud you won against women? Is there less achievement in that?
And why WOULD they complain they are in a different category, it's watching top end players? And if we are talking top S tier #1 I agree they need to be divided out at that point.
Like when I was a teen, there was a chick that STOMPED me and my friends on the neighborhood basketball court. None of us felt less achievement when we did win a 1 on 1. Or go "Well yea you are good, but I am still #1 male of the neighborhood".
And her sister that sucked at it, didn't want to walk around going "I am #2 out here, behind my sister if we go by gender"
Do you see my point at least? like my example, the easiest I can think of. If I run a 21s 100m, and sally does also. Why do we need seperate gender leagues? Only the top rank ones when they make it that far would need them separated out to differentiate. The majority of "Not major league material" players all fall into the same bell curve of ability, regardless of genetic differences. The ones that fall out of that bell curve ARE mostly all males. But those that share the overlap in curves, let them compete.
Like male and female local city softball blows my mind. You ALL sort of suck at it. Play each other, you are not peak examples here. You all fall into the bell curve of slightly above average joe, and are on even ground of each other.
If they got some issue with winning against 'girls' or other way around. Thats their fucked up mental problem, not the problem of the common ability 
If I am worried/concerned/feel less achievement about playing against someone of the other gender of equal ability as me. I am the thing that has a problem.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14081
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 23:29 Post subject: |
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Yeah, in my Badminton club we don’t differentiate because we all suck. If we win against a strong womens double we‘d still celebrate. But in professional leagues the differences accentuate rather fast. And in Badminton some even specialize in mixed teams, the stronger man smashing and the more nimble woman at the net. Its a good strategy. But more often than not they will lost against the endurance and power of a mens double. Of course there is some pride involved too. No questions about that.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Jan 2024 23:34 Post subject: |
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Yea, only where it matters, should it matter I guess is easier way to say it.
Until someone reaches a point where they are outside the venn diagram overlap into where the peak of each genders players are outside the area. Let them overlap in teams.
Like my friend is in a little local bowling league, a male bowling league, and they have female league. And they dont compete. Drop the pride, none of you bowl over a 210...stop acting like 'women cant play on my level' or that "losing to a girl" would hurt your pride.
he claims "Well they use lighter balls, so easier".. And? Nothing stopping you from using a lighter one other than your pride you don't want to be the only guy in a male league using a 9lbs ball (I myself dont care, if I bowl better with a 6lbs kids ball, Id use the hell out of it)
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 08:52 Post subject: |
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I think it is, if both of them are of roughly equal talent, and both went into the ring with the intention of fighting for sport.
Say me and Ronda Rousey got into a ring. it's perfectly ok for both us to swing at each other. I won't win...by a mile. it's actually unfair to ME as we are not even remotely of the same talent. But her being a 'woman' has nothing to do with why I cant hit her. it's because she would be beating my asss.
No one going to go "Can you believe he swung at a girl?" if I swing back at her. Only when its an unfair fight is a problem. And that's regardless of gender. Mike Tyson vs me, unfair.
The issue is only when they would mix at top level like Ronda Rousey did try to do at one point and got floored. Her vs people her actual skill? Fair fight.
It all comes down to male ego really. Women are legitimately worried they can't beat men in the top tier. Men are scared they might get beat by women in lower ones.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13437
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 12:25 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:32; edited 3 times in total
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 12:42 Post subject: |
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Crap is too mild a word, absolute shit as usual.
The rules of sports segregation make absolutely no sense to me.
If I can deadlift 300lbs, and some woman can. Other than "I got beat by a girl, because a woman did 301..my man feelings hurt now" I see no reason to deny them to compete to each other.
Only when either exceed the venn diagram overlap, into exceptionalism for their gender, would it matter to me. Everyone that falls into the overlap that contain 90% of everyone else..let them.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13437
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:01 Post subject: |
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:04 Post subject: |
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No its not.
You are missing the point that other than the top end, there is a LOT of overlap where they could.
Are you saying low-mid tier there are no men and women that deadlift the same amount? ALL men lift more than women (or all women lift less than all men?). But I guess since SOME top tier men can lift more than women, no women can compete against men in any level?
I can go to the gym down the road and find women that can lift more than the average man. But dont let them compete in any lower comp where they are equally matched. Because the olympic level men can beat them
Don't know how many time I need to say it: ONLY when they start branching out of the 'bottom 90%" would it matter to seperate them. Olympics yea sure, but they are the ones that exceed the level where men start to consistently outdo them. So divide them into sides.
Until they get to pro level where they should be separated as its unfair at that point, stop acting like women cannot keep up on any skill level with men.
The idea that "even random minor league local football teams of men are better than any women" is absurd to me, the men are not even that great (in the big scale of greatness). Plenty of women could hold their own in the same league.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13437
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:34 Post subject: |
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:40 Post subject: |
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You miss the: Until they get to pro level for their gender limits, where they should be separated, as its unfair at that point? Despite me posting it like 12 times?
And being woke? Is this what woke is? Saying people of equal skill at amateur shit should be able to face each other?
I thought woke was the other one: Letting men of clearly higher skill into women sports so they can win because they chopped of thier dick and grew tits...Now it's this too? Woke really is the 'smurf' of comebacks, it can be molded to mean anything I guess.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:42; edited 1 time in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13437
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:42 Post subject: |
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 13:46 Post subject: |
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I didn't say it didn't matter.
Im saying for 90% of people it doesn't.
Why apply a rule to all, that only is applicable for the top 10%. Only seperate that top 10%
Are you trying to tell me, there are no women that are perfectly able to keep up with say..my shitty local city Jax Suns, Minor League baseball team, that sucks ass? That's why they are not allowed in, these subpar male players, are better than any women that could apply to join?
Bullshit, I have seen local players that are women on the women's league that can outrun and out distance them for hits.
But dont let them apply, because players in the major leagues MLB can outdo them..I guess?
Just because the top tier of men can outdo any woman, doesn't mean the rest of the hooligans that do other tiers of sports do also just by nature of being male.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14081
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 14:04 Post subject: |
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Mixing only makes sense in complete leisure sports.
As soon as you enter competitive even amateur sports, you can't have women compete with men, simply because at the same level of skill and training, men will outclass women. Hypothetically speaking, if women in tier A can win against men in tier B it just means they are more advanced in their training and skill, took more time and invest etc. to be there. Men in a similar training bracket will outclass women.
But that doesn't mean you can't have mixed competitions for fun. It just doesn't make sense for any kind of pro or semi-pro competition.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 14:29 Post subject: |
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I see it as if the women did do that situation of more advanced in their training and skill, took more time and invest etc. to be there. Why not let them join in the same league, where they could get paid more for that effort they put in?
Because regardless if they are A tier, and can beat B tier. USUALLY B teir guy sports, pay more than A tier womens. So they work harder, train more, and put more effort into matching men, so they get paid less at the semi-pro job they do.
And even besides that, I dont see the big deal with if they want to let the, both ways:
Woman makes it to B tier skill? Let her join...why not?
Guy in B tier wants wants to join A tier women equal to his skill..why not? (Considering it would be just be A/B/C tiers and not women/men at that point. End up where your non-godlike examples of human skill gets you as you are all in the same clumps of ability).
I feel like the whole statement of "Men are genetically better at it than women" is imply all men, of all sports are those one genetically better. Realistically, MOST of us men are not 'those' men. We are comparing 'gods' so to speak, to us and extrapolating it to all.
For the vast majority of minor/semi pro lower tiers. None of them are 'those' guys. Why they are not in the major/pros. They all fall into the 'not human superheroes' category with most all men and women.
For those good enough to be on major TV channels playing in the pros. Sure separate them as the difference will be skewed. For the 90% of semi/minor that barely make local TV. Let them mix, as they all are in the same overlap of not being god's gift of genetic perfection.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14081
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jan 2024 16:13 Post subject: |
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Men are genetically physically superior for some specific tasks. Normal guys vs normal women, guys win. Exceptional women vs normal guys, women win. But those are just as few as exceptional guys. I don’t see what we’re arguing about anyway.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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