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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 02:07 Post subject: To the Mods, Admins: Specifically Jenni |
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To Jenni:
You banned me the other day for using a short term version of pakistani, which i use on a daily basis with actual pakistani's who take no offence to the term yet a pic display "Kill the Jews" - I am refering to the pic in the world news section - is of no concern it seems? Its ok right?
Could it be ur biased in some way and ur personal feelings are conveyed through ur actions by being a mod? Im not saying that u believe the kill the jews shit, so dont think that. What I'm saying is, is u ban and such based on ur personal feelings rather than taking things in context and free speech - which, being a former op of an irc chan, I had to obstain from it as its not good practice...u have to be objective - if someone of the pakistani culture complain, fine, no problem - but as far as I know, no one did as Im sure u would have stated it and no one else seemed to take any offence to it, so it only leaves the option that u personally took offence to something which I personally dont think a mod should do.
Ive seen enough ppl bash Iranians like mad in the World News section and Max takes his lumps and will argue back to a degree or, totally disregard the post and do nothing if no one else takes offence to the statement.
By rights, if anyone calls me a Canuck, they should be temp banned, as I was. Anyone using the term Brit should be temp banned. Anyone using the term Yankee should be temp banned....see where I am going? They are all slang terms for different ppl who live in the respective countries...and like i said, i work and socialize with pakistani's and refer to them in the term I used which got me banned, and they take no offence to it.
Perhaps it has something to do with my religious beliefs and a bias toward those? Let me explain...in that thread by fisk, we got into a spiritual conversation. I dont think death is such a gloomy morbid thing as I don't believe u really die. Anyway, I did give my respects and who knows, he could have maybe got something useful from the posts, but u simply deleted it for no reason...If he had asked to keep it strickly to paying respects then by all means, but he didnt as far as I am aware, unless he pm'ed u - which I would like to know if he did still because then to FISK, I am sorry man, my mistake.
Then shortly after deleting those posts u ban me for something, imo, totally ridiculous.
I don't know how u feel about my spiritual beliefs, but like I said before good modding does not include letting ur personal beliefs, ideas and feelings into it...u have to be objective
Anyway, something I just had to say
No hard feelings still, I can live and let die, but since u temp-banned me, I thought I should atleast give my opinion of the situation
Edit: I forgot to add, the pic of the Kill the jews thing doesnt offend me as it does add a perspective to the arguement and was not intended in a racial way, so the guy who posted it shouldnt be banned, if thats what u think Im gettin at. I believe in free speech and even if he did believe that, i still think he is entitled to his view. Now if numerous ppl complained, then I think action should be taken. But like max said, any graphic images of whatever sort of nature should be linked and given with a warning which I think is exactly what should be done. That way ppl can view it if they wish, or choose not to, so if ur offended well, then its ur own fault.
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 02:20 Post subject: |
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*claps*
That is the first "Oi why was I banned" thread which actually made sense, possibly in the history of the internet. I think you have a good point, how much of it is valid I don't know but mods certainly shouldn't remove posts or ban people unless there is something serious going on. I can understand why the use of the word "paki" was seen as a bad thing, it is often used as an insult here in the UK, Im not sure why, I guess our idiotic culture made us belive it was offensive  . Maybe not a banning offence, but you should of been slapped for it.
As for the removal of your post, if it was going along the same routes I think it was (I didnt read it, this is mearly speculation) then I am totally with you, that should not have been removed! I would have done the same, as I belive the same thing. I do tend to stay away from such things as to not let me beliefs reach others when they are hurting..
Anywho, although this thread is calm and collected, you might want to think about doing it in PM next time  .. *doo bee doo..* im bored..
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 02:26 Post subject: |
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| [sYn] wrote: | *claps*
That is the first "Oi why was I banned" thread which actually made sense, possibly in the history of the internet. I think you have a good point, how much of it is valid I don't know but mods certainly shouldn't remove posts or ban people unless there is something serious going on. I can understand why the use of the word "paki" was seen as a bad thing, it is often used as an insult here in the UK, Im not sure why, I guess our idiotic culture made us belive it was offensive . Maybe not a banning offence, but you should of been slapped for it.
As for the removal of your post, if it was going along the same routes I think it was (I didnt read it, this is mearly speculation) then I am totally with you, that should not have been removed! I would have done the same, as I belive the same thing. I do tend to stay away from such things as to not let me beliefs reach others when they are hurting..
Anywho, although this thread is calm and collected, you might want to think about doing it in PM next time .. *doo bee doo..* im bored.. |
Why, her reason's were done publicly...i thought i'd return the favour |
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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Scaramanga
Banned
Posts: 777
Location: just around the corner first street left 2nd house on ur right
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 05:23 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | Scaramanga wrote: | we say paki here all the time to the pakis and they dont mind at all so i dont see what the problem is/was
i just love those pakis  |
I thought they considered it offensive myself, but meh.
As for you getting an explanation Syco, I wouldn't count on it. There have been numerous other members, myself included, who have been temp banned, but explanations are never forthcoming. |
Well, if Jenni atleast doesnt comment, then i will assume I am right (which I am anyway) and that she is biased and doesn't preform her duties to par
Hopefully tho, she is far more mature than that
I mean, actions against others when it comes to an unprovoked attack, should be clarified - I would never spit on someone and not tell them why i did it... |
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Griffon
Banned
Posts: 1875
Location: Belarus
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 08:12 Post subject: |
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!!!
Excellent post Syco, I'm with you bud!
About Hitman: Movie (2007)
Vin Diesel is a hardcore gamer, and absolutely loves the Hitman series. For that reason I have faith that he wont destroy the movie.
Response: Well, Uwe Boll probably loved the Alone in the Dark games.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 08:45 Post subject: |
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Here in England if you use the term paki you're going to get fined or worse, prison. Yet the double standards on racism allow people to call be a Brit.
I follow the rules set down by the boards admin. If I had seen the kill the jews picture I would have banned the poster too. as for bashing the Iranians, well that's not racism, that's xenephobia, which as of yet is not illegal.
Griffon, I knew you would have posted on this thread. Remember that your post was a lot more abusive than the thread starters in this case.
I just follow the rules to make this board a lot more pleasant for the people that come here.
No racism, no abuse. Those are just two of the rules. Respect those rules and you'll have no problem posting here.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 08:48 Post subject: |
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In the tribute thread to fisk's Grandfather it went way, way off topic. I'm sure fisk didn't want to read about you beliefs in that thread. That and only that is the reason I deleted the off topic posts. The thread was about his Granddad, it should only have been about him.
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Griffon
Banned
Posts: 1875
Location: Belarus
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 09:06 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | Here in England if you use the term paki you're going to get fined or worse, prison. |
That's the most retarded thing I ever heard in my whole life... Where is the damn Democracy ? I would understand if someone would run outside and start screaming Heil Hitler or something like it, but when you just say 'Paki' you could be put in prison ? That's retarded... damn.
+ We are not in England, we are on NFOrce...
You're going to ban Scaramanga too for saying he loves pakis ?
And yea my Post was more offencive, but to whom ? To people who don't even read NFOrce ? (they don't have time to waste on NFOrce, they are busy reading Torrah <- it's facts, don't ban me )
+ My post was never Rasict, and you know it... so do I...
About Hitman: Movie (2007)
Vin Diesel is a hardcore gamer, and absolutely loves the Hitman series. For that reason I have faith that he wont destroy the movie.
Response: Well, Uwe Boll probably loved the Alone in the Dark games.
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 09:20 Post subject: |
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racism sucks, and should not be posted in any forums,
And yes saying the word paki can get you a nice fine in England
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Griffon
Banned
Posts: 1875
Location: Belarus
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 09:25 Post subject: |
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| uploader wrote: | racism sucks, and should not be posted in any forums,
And yes saying the word paki can get you a nice fine in England |
Agree, racism does suck. But saying paki doesn't make you rasict Maybe British people think it does... but it doesn't, I know a lot of guys in my school (Canada) who used/using this word, no one gets offended, not teachers not pakis(maybe some get, but no one said they were offended...)
Double Standards suck even more... bah, I don't wanna come to England 
About Hitman: Movie (2007)
Vin Diesel is a hardcore gamer, and absolutely loves the Hitman series. For that reason I have faith that he wont destroy the movie.
Response: Well, Uwe Boll probably loved the Alone in the Dark games.
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Saner
Posts: 6877
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 10:15 Post subject: |
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| Griffon wrote: | | Jenni wrote: | | Here in England if you use the term paki you're going to get fined or worse, prison. |
That's the most retarded thing I ever heard in my whole life... Where is the damn Democracy ? I would understand if someone would run outside and start screaming Heil Hitler or something like it, but when you just say 'Paki' you could be put in prison ? That's retarded... damn.
+ We are not in England, we are on NFOrce...
You're going to ban Scaramanga too for saying he loves pakis ?
And yea my Post was more offencive, but to whom ? To people who don't even read NFOrce ? (they don't have time to waste on NFOrce, they are busy reading Torrah <- it's facts, don't ban me )
+ My post was never Rasict, and you know it... so do I... |
I live in England, and I have never ever ever heard of anyone being put into Jail for using that term by itself.
Personally its not something I would ever use, but I also doubt anyone has been put in prison for using the term, if that where the case the BNP would be doing election broadcasts from inside a jail cell.
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa! |
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 11:39 Post subject: |
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Like i said numerous times before, posting here is like playing the lottery. It depends on wich moderator reads your posts and what mood she/he is in whether someone gets banned or not. There are threads in wich some mods post and all of a sudden another mod shows up and decides to close, move or delete the thread. Moderation on nforce could use some more consistency.
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 12:04 Post subject: |
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Or the mods should be temporary mods. The mod status they get only lasts 6 months. Less if you mess up
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 17:38 Post subject: |
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It's not racist at all. And I haven't heard of any1 fined for calling some1 else a paki. It's obviously meant different in other countries but there's a bigger problem with the mods at the mo. That is banning people who's opinion is in-different to their own. Instead of counter-arguing their points you simply close the topic or delete / edit the posts.
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 17:39 Post subject: |
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| whoKnows wrote: | | Like i said numerous times before, posting here is like playing the lottery. It depends on wich moderator reads your posts and what mood she/he is in whether someone gets banned or not. There are threads in wich some mods post and all of a sudden another mod shows up and decides to close, move or delete the thread. Moderation on nforce could use some more consistency. |
True.
Also, i've never heard of anyone going to jail for using that term to describe race, or even fined for that matter. I know of plenty of people who use it on a regular basis, although I don't because I think it is offensive towards them.
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TheSaint
Dalai Lama
Posts: 6586
Location: Cook Islands
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 18:02 Post subject: |
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I do not find paki in anyway rasicm and therefor i think jenni was not right to ban SycoShaman, however i did not see or beleve that jenni has banned you for personal reasons so lets just keep it on a mistake.
Hope you take this as an excuse?
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 18:40 Post subject: |
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| Griffon wrote: | | Jenni wrote: | | Here in England if you use the term paki you're going to get fined or worse, prison. |
That's the most retarded thing I ever heard in my whole life... Where is the damn Democracy ? |
Thats probably because its utter crap. I live in Bradford for craps sake, I think I've seen all there is to see when it comes to racist acts and using that word wouldnt even get you a slap on the wrist!
Fine? Banned? What laws have you been reading?!
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TheSaint
Dalai Lama
Posts: 6586
Location: Cook Islands
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 20:05 Post subject: |
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ok calm down i think jenni got the point
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Griffon
Banned
Posts: 1875
Location: Belarus
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 22:10 Post subject: |
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What's with the oversensitivity lately?
Some people here (meaning people on this forum) should really start thinking.
First of all, in the voice of George Carlin: "THEY'RE JUST WORDS"
And before you start with this: "B..b..but the meaning", I'll recite both Bill Hicks and Frank Zappa at the same time:
They're just words!
---
What matter is why it's said, and with what intent. If we start to limit the usage of our language, we shoot ourselves in the foot.
In Sweden we have this word for it, it's "Moralkärring", or, roughly translated "Moral hag" - which means that you argue against this, not out of real concern, or thought - but just to whine about morals, where they have no place.
1. Listen to what the person says / Read what he writes
Hints of derogatory intent: "Those fucking yanks, they're all alike, kill them all"
Hints of racist intent: "Damn pakistani ragheads, they should fucking go home"
NOT (necessarily) racist: "Yo my nigga! How's it hangin' man!"
NOT racist: "Three white men were seen cheering Mr. White..."
NOT racist: "Three black men were seen cheering Mr. Black..."
2. If you suspect a racist behavior, why not just ask if it is? Instead of just "OH DAMN RACIST!!" ... racism is overused everywhere. It's like as if as soon as you have a problem/discuss anyone who isn't of the same culture as yours, you suddenly become branded as a racist.
This damned oversensitivity is disturbing. Seriously, what has happened with all this limitation of proper linguistical usage? No liberal society should impose legal threats on simple descriptions.
"I dislike jews", "I dislike paki's" - for instance, does this really mean that this person is a racist? Not necessarily - notice the difference between:
"Jews are idiots", "Paki's are morons" -
In the first case the person perhaps isn't open minded, perhaps he is? Some people can express: "I like the african culture!", but it's suddenly forbidden to show anti-preferrential opinions? "I do not like the muslim culture!, Because..." ?
It's only descriptive, it isn't force fed to the reader.
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I could rant on forever, but what really should be heard here is to distinguish, and stop being oversensitive to words.
"Black" in any sentence does NOT indicate racism in any way.
Start using your brain and grasp the context, before you hit the ban-button.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 22:16 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | Here in England if you use the term paki you're going to get fined or worse, prison. Yet the double standards on racism allow people to call be a Brit.
I follow the rules set down by the boards admin. If I had seen the kill the jews picture I would have banned the poster too. as for bashing the Iranians, well that's not racism, that's xenephobia, which as of yet is not illegal.
Griffon, I knew you would have posted on this thread. Remember that your post was a lot more abusive than the thread starters in this case.
I just follow the rules to make this board a lot more pleasant for the people that come here.
No racism, no abuse. Those are just two of the rules. Respect those rules and you'll have no problem posting here. |
Generalizing iranians by calling them all terrorist's isnt racist? what is it? a friendly remark?
And i do respect those rules, but racism is not defined by you...think outside urself for a moment and realize that what u may find offensive, isnt offensive to all..hence the OBJECTIVE view point mods are supposed to have. Like i said, if anyone complained fine, but no one did hence ur fault in relation to ur mod duties.
And following the rules for modding means deleting posts about certain subjects which u seem to be biased too? I didnt see that anywhere on here...and funny, a few of the other mods didnt take it as a racist remark, especially one worth a temp ban, maybe a slap on the hand as syn said or make a fact that it can be considered racist in some countries...ur arguement is flawed and wrong. And based on how u replied, u have no arguement, straight goods.
And please, I wanna see this law in England where u GO TO JAIL for callng someone a paki? Cuz if thats the case, the UK makes the US look like the land of pure freedom and non-censorship
Last edited by SycoShaman on Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 22:38; edited 1 time in total |
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 22:26 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | What's with the oversensitivity lately?
Some people here (meaning people on this forum) should really start thinking.
First of all, in the voice of George Carlin: "THEY'RE JUST WORDS"
And before you start with this: "B..b..but the meaning", I'll recite both Bill Hicks and Frank Zappa at the same time:
They're just words!
---
What matter is why it's said, and with what intent. If we start to limit the usage of our language, we shoot ourselves in the foot.
In Sweden we have this word for it, it's "Moralkärring", or, roughly translated "Moral hag" - which means that you argue against this, not out of real concern, or thought - but just to whine about morals, where they have no place.
1. Listen to what the person says / Read what he writes
Hints of derogatory intent: "Those fucking yanks, they're all alike, kill them all"
Hints of racist intent: "Damn pakistani ragheads, they should fucking go home"
NOT (necessarily) racist: "Yo my nigga! How's it hangin' man!"
NOT racist: "Three white men were seen cheering Mr. White..."
NOT racist: "Three black men were seen cheering Mr. Black..."
2. If you suspect a racist behavior, why not just ask if it is? Instead of just "OH DAMN RACIST!!" ... racism is overused everywhere. It's like as if as soon as you have a problem/discuss anyone who isn't of the same culture as yours, you suddenly become branded as a racist.
This damned oversensitivity is disturbing. Seriously, what has happened with all this limitation of proper linguistical usage? No liberal society should impose legal threats on simple descriptions.
"I dislike jews", "I dislike paki's" - for instance, does this really mean that this person is a racist? Not necessarily - notice the difference between:
"Jews are idiots", "Paki's are morons" -
In the first case the person perhaps isn't open minded, perhaps he is? Some people can express: "I like the african culture!", but it's suddenly forbidden to show anti-preferrential opinions? "I do not like the muslim culture!, Because..." ?
It's only descriptive, it isn't force fed to the reader.
---
I could rant on forever, but what really should be heard here is to distinguish, and stop being oversensitive to words.
"Black" in any sentence does NOT indicate racism in any way.
Start using your brain and grasp the context, before you hit the ban-button. |
Exactly, they are just words...thats how I take things...but Jenni decided to take it different and I just wanted to show the ops that they have a mod who bases banning ppl on personal beliefs and such rather than factual reasons...and by deleting my posts, she censored me, which i find offensive as this is an open, liberal forum and ppl have posted things way worse than information about Wicca and Shamanism, espeically when the thread is spiritual in nature, I dont like ppl attacking my personal beliefs, no matter if its in a backhanded way or not..and since she didnt address that fact in her reply, I presume that I am 100% correct. See, if I attacked someone's spiritual beliefs by accident, I would apologzie and make it clear that it wasn't intended, what she hasnt done.......maybe she should be temp-banned for being prejudice/racist...? Seems like that is a very fair option and logical one to boot. Ops/Admins, any thoughts?
Again fisk, I didnt use it in a racist way, nor did I intended on it being taken that way...cuz like u said, they are just words...fuck, Im half black, call me a "nigger" all u want, doesnt bother me cuz Im not..Im a human and clean...since "nigger" means low life, scum type of thing and Im certainly not that
I just wanted to make a point that she is way to quick to ban ppl, not only me but others I have seen since she became a mod...perhaps a power trip? perhaps filling a void? who knows? I would like to know tho.
As the other mods on nforce seem to be fair when it comes to racism and stuff like that, even if they don't share ur view - I don't want one bad apple spoiling it for everyone know what mean?
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 22:36 Post subject: |
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| TheSaint wrote: | I do not find paki in anyway rasicm and therefor i think jenni was not right to ban SycoShaman, however i did not see or beleve that jenni has banned you for personal reasons so lets just keep it on a mistake.
Hope you take this as an excuse? |
Sorry man, but when I am censored on something that is not offensive, not "evil", not anything negative, Wicca and Shamanism arent negative or evil Jenni, and when it so near and dear to my heart, well fuck, I get bothered and I can't like, Im a tit for tat type of guy. This is why i think she should be banned for the same period of time I was...which was about 2 days, but her inital ban period was 4.
See Saint, I came to this conclusion cuz the post's were fine until I happened to mention to drak that another name for Wicca is Witchcraft, but not the hollywood, mythical shit...its another term for "Craft of the Wise". Same as any Pagan religion. Then all of sudden, she deletes my post's and ban's me for nothing...Thats VERY offensive to me, just as much and prolly more as she took paki offensivly
She obviously lacks knowledge about the subject, saw the term and automatically thought i was being rude or something in relation to fisk, or maybe she has a prior bias to it, I dunno really. But I would like to.
Im sorry, but when uneducated (in respect to the subject) ppl take action against me and I am not wrong, then yeah, i get mad...its an abuse of power and the fact that this site has ENOUGH ppl coming here daily, I think things like that take away from the value and atmosphere.
Anyway, i thought i'd explain myself a lil more...which, Jenni, Im still waiting for from you - I explained myself as u were offended by the term paki, so please, u've offended me, explain ur reasoning for attacking my spiritual beliefs? Im not instigating either, but I think I do deserve an explanation...if u would like to give it to me in private, thats fine, but I do want and deserve one...just as anyone else on here or in life would.
EDIT: And just to add to the temp banning of Jenni and why it fits the rules perfectly
"No racism, no abuse. Those are just two of the rules. Respect those rules and you'll have no problem posting here" - taken from the first post by Jenni in this thread...she clearly states that she should be banned...the bias toward my beliefs....religious discrimination is same as racism and i think the banning would be a form of abuse as its a smoke screen for a more hostile action and response - can mods ban themselves? 
And Jenni, if fisk did get mad at what i was typing about, in a conversation with someone else, Im sure he would have said something and I would have apologized and edited my posts...but it seems u made the decision for him...how many other ppl are u gunna make decisions for regarding a ban when ur views conflict? interesting....mods are allowed to assume things and ban those based on assumptions, rather than fact....?.....fisk didnt complain, so it WAS UR DECISION based on your bias, dont try to pass the buck, its a cop out and fooled no one i think, didnt fool me to say the least and offends me even that much more - how arrogant and rude.
Another EDIT: When u reply Jenni, please address all the things I have touched on...not only in the reply to Saint, but to the others and urself aswell - and honesty would be the best policy i think in this case, so I encourage u to use it. Because really, attacking my spiritual beliefs and then after i clearly tell u, u offended me and ask for an explanation, u use the biggest cop out ever which only in itself demonstrates u have a prior bias or lack of knowledge to Wicca (yes, WITCHCRAFT) and or Shamanism and its now 3 times as offensive because u think im stupid...perhaps basing it on other personal things I have shared and will continue to in this form, Im refering to marijuana and the like, I remember before u were made a mod, u used to comment every now and again on that and clearly disliked me. Everything u have said so far demonstrates ur bias...so dont say its not there.
really, if u would have read the post's you deleted you would have seen my link www.witchvox.net that has plently good links for all things Pagan, not just Wicca. So don't tell me its nothing personal. Please, have the fortitude to speak up..I dont mind being disliked, but we can dislike each other in a mature adult fashion and not pull childish things on one another IE the banning and censorship of myself.
Last edited by SycoShaman on Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 23:04; edited 1 time in total |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 22nd Jul 2005 23:04 Post subject: |
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I said in the thread I wanted you all to take it elsewhere.
I have nothing against Wicca/Shamanism, but to be frank, what you said about your conviction, even if intended to comfort me, didn't really belong there. It all went off-topic, and suddenly it derailed into a discussion on neo-paganism, racism, etc.
Then I said: "Please, please - take this elsewhere" (to both you and Jenni, and whoever else it was who participated in that discussion).
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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