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javlar
Posts: 1921
Location: Kalmar, Sweden
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 Posted: Fri, 2nd Sep 2005 06:58 Post subject: Anonymous |
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Time for a little ranting and raving. Baleur wrote a couple of his thoughts like this some time ago. Been thinking about doing the same so here goes.
I really dislike one thing above all others when it comes to gaming today: The "Hero-factor".
Pretty much 99% (minus simulations and sportsgames) of all games that gives you control over one character has this flaw. What do i mean, i'll tell you what i mean.
Most games start out with you creating your character or getting introduced to the guy you will be playing. To start with you'll be whacking sewer rats with you -1 club or shooting lowlife criminals with your baretta. Slowly the story evolves and before you know it you'll be facing one or more of the following situations:
1. You stumble across something way worse than what you expected the mission to contain. OH NOES the world is going to be destroyed unless you can single-handedly kill the publicly loved mega-evil boss, but what will everyone think of you?!
2. You are not as casual as you think young one! The blood of an ancient great god flows through you, you must rid the world of evil/good.
3. Oh my god! The scientists at this military installation wasnt just researching new fancy weaponry! They have created a new breed of muscle-bloated super-mutants, and they want your blood! And if you dont stop them, they will kill all life as we know it, gosh!
4. Even though you're just a notorios no-care-person you HAVE to get your life together and do the right thing, which is to face adversity and become the protector of the world. Yes indeedy.
I can think of a few more but you get my drift.
Anyhow, after this moment in the game, when you realize the crucial thingy. Everything changes, now it's a race against evil/good and often time. At the end of the game you are either the most powerful warrior/wizard in the new world which you created by slaying the beforehand UNKILLABLE boss. The other option is that you kill the boss and when the coppers come to pick you up you just fling the evidence in their face and they all go "Wow man, you went through all this alone, you're a true hero, gogo".
Ok here comes the point: The games of today all put you in the position of a great hero or criminal/evil mastermind. YOU are fucking GOD. At the end at least. Never ever do you get to play a somewhat anonymous avatar. It could just be something like a copgame where you face some extraordinary situations like shootouts or whatever. But no it's always You vs 10.000 enemies and you just kick their sorry little asses cause ur so damn great.
Some of you may say "Well, there are alot of war-fps-games that arent like that, like almost all of the newer WW2-games". Yeah sure, take Brothers in Arms or Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault as examples. They try to capture the feeling of "being one of the men". But it doesnt matter cause you know damn well that your friends Bobby and Joey didnt kill 4000 of the 4300 enemies you met. No, you did.
There we go, discuss 
Gaming - Intel Quad Q9450 @ 3.2GHZ | Radeon HD 4870 X2 2GB | SB X-Fi | PC6400 8GB | 300GB Velociraptor
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Sep 2005 07:20 Post subject: |
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Um, right. So you'd like to play more games where nothing you do matters and there's no plot?
Yes, games aren't realistic... If they were, people would just play real life instead. It's a lot more rewarding in that scenario.
Games are about entertainment and nothing more.
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Sep 2005 07:39 Post subject: |
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| aladrinkelahn wrote: | Um, right. So you'd like to play more games where nothing you do matters and there's no plot?
Yes, games aren't realistic... If they were, people would just play real life instead. It's a lot more rewarding in that scenario.
Games are about entertainment and nothing more. |
Yes. Today's games are flawed for many other reasons, not because you always get to play as the hero.
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Supino
Posts: 699
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Sep 2005 09:19 Post subject: |
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I for one agree with you javlar! I would like to see a game where the player was more one with the world, not king of the world. It would feel much more rewarding progressing in that kind of world. Fallout for example did this very well!
On the other hand this is what Multiplayer and MMORPGs are all about.
I know you are a RPG fan Javlar. The essence of RPGs is that you progress to GOD-like powers. In many ways thats what makes them fun. But I see your point here...
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copywrong
Posts: 707
Location: Here today, gone tomorrow...
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Sep 2005 11:13 Post subject: |
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Only game I can think of right now that at least tried to simulate an ordinary working policeguy is SWAT 4. No heroics, you were not alone and there were no supermutants.
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kosmiq
Posts: 2304
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Sep 2005 16:38 Post subject: |
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To make you happy, Fallout has all of those things pointed out... Does that makes it one big flaw? Nope, it is still one of the most kickass-uber-1337 games ever made (if not THE ONE)...
Also I do not really care as long as the game is fun, entertaining and simply make me forget everything else and have me stuck infront of the pc/xbox 24/7 with just that game.
Behold his GLORY! Bow for the technical master!
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javlar
Posts: 1921
Location: Kalmar, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Sep 2005 04:17 Post subject: |
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| Submiqent wrote: | I get your point, but it's kind of a problem with game design atm (imo). It's difficult (until recently/before hl2) to create truly great AI/buddies to fight with. Tell me what was the last game you played when you accaulty cared what happened to that guy to the left of you?
The enemy doesn't have to seem convicing cause they die in 0.01-3.00 seconds (depending on player skill ) and designers have tried to create convincing friends, but have to resort to using cinematic clips to "make you care".
You mention the teammates in brothers of arms (many other games are similar in this regard) and how they wont/cant kill nearly any enemies. I agree with you on this one, it sucks, but (again imo) the developers would let the squad progress/kill stuff if they could be sure it wouldn't break anything. i.e. would you have any respect for your teammate if he tried to use a grenade when the enemy has just gotten into close combat with him? ect ect and it kind of breaks the immersion if your mate accidently runs into an explosion that would have killed you 8 times over, but he lives (cause he has to).
Imo, if the game industry could get you caring/making realistic AI then we would see alot more women gaming.
My $0.02 |
There we go, agreed 
But the thing is: will we ever see the friend to our left taking a fmv-sequence on his own, sniping some bad-guys and securing the all-so-sought-for-installation? No. We and the producers want that someone to be US. Noone else.
And i understand the people saying that hero-games are the way to go. I'ts AWESOME to see your player advance from nothing to EVERYTHING. I'm not saying that all games should be non-hero. All im saying is that the next game that introduces a story where your friend/sidekick is the one who makes the saving hero-thing will have me enthralled for sure. That's all.
My "point" is that games are like 40 years behind movies. Movies realized some time ago that the "hero-concept" wont make a movie anymore. My question is when that will hit the gaming-scene. Hopefully soon if you ask me.
Gaming - Intel Quad Q9450 @ 3.2GHZ | Radeon HD 4870 X2 2GB | SB X-Fi | PC6400 8GB | 300GB Velociraptor
HTPC - Antec Fusion Remote | AMD Athlon 7850 X2 | PC6400 2GB | 74GB Raptor
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upstart_69
Posts: 1094
Location: Right behind you!
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Sep 2005 04:49 Post subject: |
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i agree to an extent. however i just believe this is true with the blockbuster type games, and you just need to dig a little deeper to find those types of games. they might not have the best gfx or anything but they are there. thats why i keep around copies of police quest series games, wing commander games, jagged alliance, silent storm, stuff like that. none of those are 'one hero defeats the masses of evil and saves the day' type games. its true, they need to make more games like this and they could become blockbusters but producers looks at the bottom-line and lets face facts, its so much cheaper to create a by-the-numbers type game than an original.
and your point about hollywood being 40 yrs ahead? i dont really agree with that at all. look at the latest blockbusters there too. spiderman, x-men, whatever has 'the rock' or vin diesel or whoever else in it. and besides, the media is different. all movies have to do is tell a story, not create an interactive universe for you to explore. and they have much broader appeal and more of an audience. so there is room for more independent filmmakers and so on to make movies independent of the big studios. but believe me, the big studios do the same thing as publishers, make as many by-the-numbers cookie cutter type movies as they can. its great working with a small crew and having creative freedom but with creating games thats largely impossible, except in the case of community mods and so on.
so anyways, in the mainstream you will always find the cookie-cutter hero type games. you just have to dig deeper to find other more creative titles.
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Baleur
Posts: 2343
Location: South Sweden
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Sep 2005 14:58 Post subject: |
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wow someone remembered my name (nick)!!!
Yep, agree, its getting really old to be a huge unstoppable hero, i dont want every npc in the gameworld to be all "ooh aaaah" at me, i want to prevail because of SKILL, not because i can fuckin stop time or something.
Let me be 1 soldier in an army in the LOTR universe, let me continue in the game by being better than the other 10000 soldiers, let me become a "hero" like Aragorn because i fight Good, not because some non-existing gamegod SAYS so.
Let me end up with a 1vs1 fight with Sauron because i was GOOD enugh to get there, no matter how many quicksaves it took me. Dont let me face Sauron because the game says so, oh sorry frodo died from friendly fire, oh no sorry again gandalf died before he could defeat the balrog which would now attack the rest of the party, so its up to ME to fight it and actually DODGE its attacks, since being a good gamer is the only way to win.
But no, dont worry, gandalf ressurects! He turns back time, and tries to win against the balrog again,. and again, and again..
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 RAM: 4gb Kingmax DDR2 800mhz Video: Asus GeForce 250GTS 1gb Sound: Asus Xonar.
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crossmr
Posts: 2965
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Sep 2005 23:15 Post subject: |
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I think your signature kind of explains why most games are that way. Its interesting you hold that opinion yet hold Army of Darkness in enough regard to use it in your signature. That movie was all about the most average joe who needs to become a hero against... the undead. He's held as some hero because of a prophecy etc.
Why do people enjoy that movie? Becuase its hilarious, but the plot is basically that of most games.
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Baleur
Posts: 2343
Location: South Sweden
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 00:59 Post subject: |
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crossmr i know you want to make a point there, but you are wrong.
the dude in army of darkness is a normal guy, thrown into odd circumstances and is simply forced to do his best to get trough em, when he got attacked by the little miniatures of himself he didnt have any divine means to prevail, he only did what anyone would be able to do, drinking hot water. Just an example.
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 RAM: 4gb Kingmax DDR2 800mhz Video: Asus GeForce 250GTS 1gb Sound: Asus Xonar.
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crossmr
Posts: 2965
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 04:47 Post subject: |
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Yes, and not every game surrounding a "regular" person involves a supernatural ability. While he doesn't have any supernatural abilities of his own, he does:
Time travel
attach a chainsaw to his arm
use a magic potion
fight the undead
fight miniature versions of himself
have an evil clone of himself made
have a battle of wits with "magic books"
Pay very close attention to the second one. It may not seem supernatural because people lose hands all the time, and people own chainsaws..but I can guarentee you no one would fight that effectively with a chainsaw attached to a fresh stump that quickly. The hero always has a quirk..whatever it is. Sometimes its a super natural power, sometimes its a chainsaw strapped to your arm. Not to mention the movie is filled with plenty of "super natural".
You have to realize the main attraction for most people to game is to be something they're not. To lose themselves. Its hard to lose yourself when you're starring in a mirror.
Intel i5 6500 3.2Ghz, Geforce 970GTX 2GB, 16 GB Ram, Windows 7
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 04:50 Post subject: |
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You're actually having a serious discussion about a comedy trilogy? =))
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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manwithplanxyz
Posts: 1009
Location: Somewhere in the past looking for the future
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 04:58 Post subject: Re: Anonymous |
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| javlar wrote: | Time for a little ranting and raving. Baleur wrote a couple of his thoughts like this some time ago. Been thinking about doing the same so here goes.
I really dislike one thing above all others when it comes to gaming today: The "Hero-factor".
Pretty much 99% (minus simulations and sportsgames) of all games that gives you control over one character has this flaw. What do i mean, i'll tell you what i mean.
Most games start out with you creating your character or getting introduced to the guy you will be playing. To start with you'll be whacking sewer rats with you -1 club or shooting lowlife criminals with your baretta. Slowly the story evolves and before you know it you'll be facing one or more of the following situations:
1. You stumble across something way worse than what you expected the mission to contain. OH NOES the world is going to be destroyed unless you can single-handedly kill the publicly loved mega-evil boss, but what will everyone think of you?!
2. You are not as casual as you think young one! The blood of an ancient great god flows through you, you must rid the world of evil/good.
3. Oh my god! The scientists at this military installation wasnt just researching new fancy weaponry! They have created a new breed of muscle-bloated super-mutants, and they want your blood! And if you dont stop them, they will kill all life as we know it, gosh!
4. Even though you're just a notorios no-care-person you HAVE to get your life together and do the right thing, which is to face adversity and become the protector of the world. Yes indeedy.
I can think of a few more but you get my drift.
Anyhow, after this moment in the game, when you realize the crucial thingy. Everything changes, now it's a race against evil/good and often time. At the end of the game you are either the most powerful warrior/wizard in the new world which you created by slaying the beforehand UNKILLABLE boss. The other option is that you kill the boss and when the coppers come to pick you up you just fling the evidence in their face and they all go "Wow man, you went through all this alone, you're a true hero, gogo".
Ok here comes the point: The games of today all put you in the position of a great hero or criminal/evil mastermind. YOU are fucking GOD. At the end at least. Never ever do you get to play a somewhat anonymous avatar. It could just be something like a copgame where you face some extraordinary situations like shootouts or whatever. But no it's always You vs 10.000 enemies and you just kick their sorry little asses cause ur so damn great.
Some of you may say "Well, there are alot of war-fps-games that arent like that, like almost all of the newer WW2-games". Yeah sure, take Brothers in Arms or Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault as examples. They try to capture the feeling of "being one of the men". But it doesnt matter cause you know damn well that your friends Bobby and Joey didnt kill 4000 of the 4300 enemies you met. No, you did.
There we go, discuss |
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THINGS WE THINK!!!!!!!!!
| Clevesa wrote: | | Murder is the best way out of this that I see. |
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Baleur
Posts: 2343
Location: South Sweden
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Narog
Posts: 108
Location: 2nd Ring of the 7th Circle
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 13:22 Post subject: |
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I agree with the first post. A few days ago I tried that expansion for Gothic II (Raven something..) and after playing it for a couple of hours I remembered why I stopped playing the original game. Spending countless hours killing wolves and giant rats is not something I do for fun.
RPG's should be more than killing increasingly difficult creatures for exp...
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Ispep
VIP Member
Posts: 4117
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 13:30 Post subject: |
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Games as a medium are still in their infancy. What is kind of worrying though is that the same thing that has happened to the Music and Film industry is occuring in the game industry - they are streamlining everything in order to mass produce the same kind of crap in order to make money with the least amount of investment (not just in terms of cash).
I know what you are saying but the problem is you've distorted an arguement which really doesn't exist. Games like you describe can be some of the most entertaining - the problem is the vast majority of titles out there in the market all follow the same formulas and take no risks.
So the market is saturated with the same old shit. A title like you can describe however could theoretically be on the best games ever so I don't think the underlying model is the problem. But you make some good arguements that I agree with, there just isn't enough games to the contrary.
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javlar
Posts: 1921
Location: Kalmar, Sweden
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 19:18 Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: | I think your signature kind of explains why most games are that way. Its interesting you hold that opinion yet hold Army of Darkness in enough regard to use it in your signature. That movie was all about the most average joe who needs to become a hero against... the undead. He's held as some hero because of a prophecy etc.
Why do people enjoy that movie? Becuase its hilarious, but the plot is basically that of most games. |
I can agree to some extent that the Army of Darkness films are based partially on an average joe becoming a he-man.
But honestly, what does that have to do with my post? My post was about games all following the same boring formula, i wasnt saying that i cant appreciate a game such as that nor a movie. Neither did i say anything about me being totally biased and would never touch such a game. I like alot of those games but it's getting stale.
And the reason i have the signature is because i love Ash (the character from Army of Darkness for the ones who didnt know that) and also cause the icon kicks ass 
Gaming - Intel Quad Q9450 @ 3.2GHZ | Radeon HD 4870 X2 2GB | SB X-Fi | PC6400 8GB | 300GB Velociraptor
HTPC - Antec Fusion Remote | AMD Athlon 7850 X2 | PC6400 2GB | 74GB Raptor
Server - Athlon 64 X2 4200+ | Radeon HD 3450 | SB X-Fi | PC5300 2GB | 4TB+ total space
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crossmr
Posts: 2965
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Sep 2005 19:42 Post subject: |
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| Baleur wrote: |
Yes, but that is due to the universe of the Movie, where fantastic shit happens. You wouldnt call 1 orc out of a 10000 orc army a superhero would you? Yet it is way more "magical" than bruce campbell ever was |
And what universe was that? oh wait... it was set in ours..in our present time, then something supernatural occured. Hardly very different than most games. I also think that even with the low production values, most of us can agree the movie is awesome. This is why games follow this formula. A low-budget game that follows this formula will appeal to its intended audience, because those are the same people who loved Army of Darkness.
| Quote: | I can agree to some extent that the Army of Darkness films are based partially on an average joe becoming a he-man.
But honestly, what does that have to do with my post? My post was about games all following the same boring formula, i wasnt saying that i cant appreciate a game such as that nor a movie. Neither did i say anything about me being totally biased and would never touch such a game. I like alot of those games but it's getting stale.
And the reason i have the signature is because i love Ash (the character from Army of Darkness for the ones who didnt know that) and also cause the icon kicks ass |
It goes to the point of your post that regardless of whether or not people think it might be getting stale, they sell, and people generally enjoy them. To a game developer, thats the ticket to at least trying to break even so you can do it again. Players generally don't want to sit around looking in the mirror at a carbon copy of themselves doing mundane things. Sure some do, and some want to play games where they get to have sex with goats, problem is, neither of those would be hit games. The developers would probably go out of business. An "alter-ego" that gets to do something exceptional is what appeals to the vast majority of players.
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Narog
Posts: 108
Location: 2nd Ring of the 7th Circle
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| Posted: Mon, 5th Sep 2005 07:45 Post subject: |
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Well, you can do exceptional things without being a demigod who can kill thousands of the same low-level creatures that you couldn't even hurt at the start of the game when you were just a peon.
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crossmr
Posts: 2965
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon, 5th Sep 2005 09:24 Post subject: |
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There are plenty of games out there where you don't play as a demi-god.
What you're really saying is that you don't like games that have a level progression. The point of a level progression is to build those great powers. It only stands to reason that after a lot of practice you'd be able to easily defeat the opponents you first faced if they themselves didn't improve.
You want to start the game with a character who doesn't develop in anyway..
Getting betters guns is also a form a development.
Asteroids is probably what you're looking for..though technically you'd get better playing it so it'd get easier.. I guess you cna't play games at all.
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Narog
Posts: 108
Location: 2nd Ring of the 7th Circle
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Sep 2005 19:02 Post subject: |
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How you can compare (hell, equal even) ingame level progression with personal gaming experience is way beyond me.
Anyways.. I've never said I don't like level progression. I said I don't like games where you start as a peon and end up as a demigod by slaughtering wildlife.
RPGs in general should be more realistic. Just because you have orcs and other unrealistic creatures doesn't mean the player should be able to become a demigod.
In my opinion there should be realistic limits to skills and attributes. A newbie shouldn't have to hack on a veteran character's head with a sword for an hour just to see the text "immune" pop up with each blow. WTF? Immune to people hitting you in the head with a fucking sword?? Come on.
Also, finding better guns is not really what I'd call level progression, getting your skills and attributes increased by using them is. For example getting your stamina increased by running or your sword skill increased by chopping up badguys. Boiling Point had this system and it worked fine (except for the fact that the game was unoptimized and buggy).
That's one way to do level progression.
The other way is to do like in most generic RPGs, i.e. level progression by killing 2000 badgers with a rusty dagger and spending the gained experience points on increasing your hitpoints and crossbow skill...
While this is the common way to do it in RPGs it's the exact reason why I don't play those games.
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crossmr
Posts: 2965
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Sep 2005 02:11 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A newbie shouldn't have to hack on a veteran character's head with a sword for an hour just to see the text "immune" pop up with each blow. WTF? Immune to people hitting you in the head with a fucking sword?? Come on. |
So then what you don't like is magic?
You have to realize that most of the gameplay you're referencing doesn't come from RPGs. they come from action adventure games like Diablo, or Dungeon Siege. These are not roleplaying games. Maybe your anger at the gameplay comes from your poor choice in choosing games. If you want real roleplaying games they are very rare. Just because the industry decides to call them RPGs at some sort of grab at credibility, doesn't make them so. I can't call you a fish for year.. in a year.. you won't be a fish. If you are, that'd be sweet
Desslock defined what a real roleplaying game was in a column he wrote for PC Gamer last year. It was over looked by most of the industry becuase they were busy riding the "rpg" gravy train.
Giving someone a sword and level progression doesn't make it a roleplaying game.
A roleplaying game is playing the role of your character in a world where you can make choices that have a meaningful & lasting effect on the world in which yuo're playing. This is almost impossible for a computer game to accomplish. Why? Because they're whores for instancing things. This is generally only accomplished if you sit down and play a campaign of D&D or other PnP RPG of your choice.
You complained that you didn't like becoming a demi-god and being able to slaughter all the monsters you had trouble with in the beginning. Play Doom and find tons of ammo for the BFG 9000..same effect. In any game in which your character improves in some manner, be it via equipment or skills, the monsters you started on are going to be easy. Thats the nature of improving yourself. If the starting enemy was at the same ability as the end enemy, the game would be rather pointless. After 20 minutes of getting used to the game, you'd like be able to just march right through it.
The rules of real roleplaying game systems have to often be altered to be used on the PC. In a regular game of D&D you get the experience for overcoming challenges. Not killing mosters and getting phat lewt. That means if you sneak by the 5 bugbears your DM, if he's a good one who knows his stuff, should give you an appropriate award for overcoming that challenge. In the PC version of the game you pretty much just have to slaughter them because the programmers can't accomplish that. That's why you see such a grindfest in a lot of these adventure games. They decided, why bother with the story.. its not like people are going to progress through it. Games like Dungeon Siege, Diablo, etc are the non-monthly paying form of your average MMORPG, which again isn't an RPG.
I think you just need to be a little more choosy about what you play. There are plenty of good games out there. But I"d recommend staying away from anything Fantasy as it pretty much always includes stuff like immunities.
Intel i5 6500 3.2Ghz, Geforce 970GTX 2GB, 16 GB Ram, Windows 7
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Sep 2005 04:18 Post subject: |
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humm GTA games doesn't really go under any of those catagory.. that might be why they are successful? lol..
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crossmr
Posts: 2965
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Sep 2005 05:56 Post subject: |
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There have been plenty of popular games that fall under these catagories, Baldur's Gate for example. Fall-out is another one. GTA is popular because the gameplay is fun in general (though honestly once you tool up you can pretty much go on an unstopped kill spree). I used to like to get a hiding spot that had an overhang on it to protect from chopper fire and just blow stuff up all day. GTA has a good story well put together with really open gameplay. Allows for a little relaxing between "doing things".
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