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 Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 04:24 Post subject: Germany Sues 3,500 eDonkey Users |
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Calling it the "biggest single action against illegal file-sharing internationally," the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry said Tuesday that 3,500 eDonkey users are facing criminal prosecution in Germany. The group was targeted for uploading up to 8,000 music files using the peer-to-peer network. Since 2004, Germany has cracked down on over 7,000 file swappers, averaging a settlement of 2,500 euros in each case.
Police searched 130 premises to gather evidence, the IFPI said, noting that each individual faces at least thousands of euros in fines. "The music industry has run numerous education campaigns aimed at audiences from parents to schools and internet users. Most people clearly know that file-sharing without permission is illegal - unfortunately it takes legal actions such as this make a real impact on behaviour," commented IFPI chairman John Kennedy.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Germany_Sues_3500_eDonkey_Users/1148417870
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 05:28 Post subject: |
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its funny because those people probably wouldnt have bought the shit they downloaded because most probably sucked.
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 09:44 Post subject: |
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| kirkblitz wrote: | | its funny because those people probably wouldnt have bought the shit they downloaded because most probably sucked. |
doesn't fucking matter.. stealing is stealing
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 11:21 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 11:59 Post subject: |
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| MAD_MAX333 wrote: | | kirkblitz wrote: | | its funny because those people probably wouldnt have bought the shit they downloaded because most probably sucked. |
doesn't fucking matter.. stealing is stealing |
jesus, its not stealing...
when you steal a cd, you reduce the amount of available copies, hence you take away from someone the chance to buy that disc.
you´re directly harming the producer, when you dload stuff you re not.
you may harm the producer, or you may not, depending on whether you wouldve
bought the disc if it was available on the net.
you really cant compare stealing physically and digitally. |
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 12:24 Post subject: |
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D_A_Kuja: i really hope not.. but some bitch in Norway are trying to do like they do in US. To take private persons who download stuff from (mainly) DC++
But companies don't have the same rights on that information like they have in the US.
So fuck her. Im downloading until they stand on my door.
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 12:27 Post subject: |
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The producers and the artis have a trademark on their music/films. And when you take that without permission or paying for it, isnt that stealing ?
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 12:34 Post subject: |
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| fraich3 wrote: | | The producers and the artis have a trademark on their music/films. And when you take that without permission or paying for it, isnt that stealing ? |
A trademark is there so you cant sell the product yourself if you didnt buy the license for it. Most ppl arent selling off stuff they leech, they keep it for themselves. |
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 12:36 Post subject: |
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| D_A_Kuja wrote: | | fraich3 wrote: | | The producers and the artis have a trademark on their music/films. And when you take that without permission or paying for it, isnt that stealing ? |
A trademark is there so you cant sell the product yourself if you didnt buy the license for it. Most ppl arent selling off stuff they leech, they keep it for themselves. |
Touche.
But the artikel also says that if were people that uploaded stuff that got caught, not the people that were just downloading.
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 12:51 Post subject: |
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D_A_Kuja: Got to agree with what you are saying in the most part. I do think that digital theft is a real thing, but it shouldn't be compared and tried in the same way as physical theft. We don't need to turn this into a debate on piracy as we have all done it, this may not be a warez forum but it certainly has its links to it.. Downloading music is not breaking copyright/trademark or anything of that nature, when you purchase a CD/DVD/Game your buying both the right to use the material (private none profit use) and also the material with which the item came in, be that the box, dvd, manual or anything else..
Why should a downloader be made to pay retail price for a product which he only stole the license.. that probably being the least expensive (or profitable) part of the item itself. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me.
I do agree with MAX also, it is a crime to download material you do not own a license too, however I also believe in the somewhat old school "rights" (possibly not real rights or laws, but Ill go with them anyway) where by you could download and use a product for a number of days freely without issues then after those days you must buy the license (eg. go and buy the product in a shop) or remove it from your drive.. This is generally a rule put in place to allow the legal transfer of old game roms  !
anywho.. I'm done.
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 13:01 Post subject: |
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I think digital theft and physical theft are about equal. With insurance the difference is only minor. I mean, the person didn't lose anything they will still have the item replaced.
Take away from someone the chance to buy the disk? Nowadays supplies are effectively infinite. They can just get one of the millions of other copies. Thats ridiculous reasoning.
As is the bullshit about whether you would have bought it or not. You think the people who physically steal things from shops would have bought everything they stole?
The only difference is how easy it is to get away with one compared to the other.
Don't try and justify what you do with crap like this. At least admit what you are doing is essentially theft.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 13:06 Post subject: |
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| [sYn] wrote: |
Why should a downloader be made to pay retail price for a product which he only stole the license.. that probably being the least expensive (or profitable) part of the item itself. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me.
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The cost of the physical item is negligible at best. You're paying for the interllectual property. People don't buy music CD's for the case, or the CD itself, they pay for the data on the disk. Thats whats valuable.
I thought you would be smart enough to realise this.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 13:36 Post subject: |
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Haha, saw that yesterday on TV, a reporter was asking how many homes were in fact searched, and the answer was 130. All the others were only leeching, some only a couple of songs, but a spokeswoman for the industry said that all suspects are serious offenders. She continued that each song illegally obtained will result in a fine of approx. €1000. WTF is that, Sony only had to pay like ten bucks fine per cd for their rootkit, yet customers have to pay a million times more. Greedy assholes.
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 13:47 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | I think digital theft and physical theft are about equal. With insurance the difference is only minor. I mean, the person didn't lose anything they will still have the item replaced.
Take away from someone the chance to buy the disk? Nowadays supplies are effectively infinite. They can just get one of the millions of other copies. Thats ridiculous reasoning.
As is the bullshit about whether you would have bought it or not. You think the people who physically steal things from shops would have bought everything they stole?
The only difference is how easy it is to get away with one compared to the other.
Don't try and justify what you do with crap like this. At least admit what you are doing is essentially theft. |
How dont you get this?
Assuming I just dloaded something that I wouldntve bought no matter what,
in another case I m stealing something from a store that I also never wouldve bought.
The difference here is clear, in the latter case I´m reducing the amount of copies available for sale, in the former I´m not harming the industry in the slightest way (as long as I m not distributing it).
Sure, stealing a physical copy of a product hardly makes a difference financially, but thats not the point here.
PS: Yes, I do buy stuff I would pay for if it wasnt available on the net. |
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 14:25 Post subject: |
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u have to question the police resources ....
130 homes searched ??? you would think 130 drug dealers could have had their doors kicked in instead....
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 14:28 Post subject: |
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| whoKnows wrote: | | a spokeswoman for the industry said that all suspects are serious offenders. She continued that each song illegally obtained will result in a fine of approx. €1000. WTF is that, |
lol that would never hold up in court
Imagine going into a shop.. stealing 5 albums.... each had say 10 songs on it.
Do you think the court would tell you to pay $50,000 ??? lol
If you did that here then you would prob get diversion (which basically means.. this is your first offence.. you get no penalty.. but if u do it again u will be charged)
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kumkss
Posts: 4834
Location: Chile
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 15:17 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | [sYn] wrote: |
Why should a downloader be made to pay retail price for a product which he only stole the license.. that probably being the least expensive (or profitable) part of the item itself. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me.
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The cost of the physical item is negligible at best. You're paying for the interllectual property. People don't buy music CD's for the case, or the CD itself, they pay for the data on the disk. Thats whats valuable.
I thought you would be smart enough to realise this. |
i disagree. when i buy a music cd for example, i do it most of the time because of the case, photos in it, letters, or just to have some quality cd in my collection. not for the music itself, because, you can have them as mp3, wich can be played in most of modern equipments.
btw. isn't a counter sense, that music equipments plays the mp3?
but, yeah, stealing is stealing. now, the funny thing is that i bet most of those 3.500 ppl, were only "deppositarys" of the shared content, and didn't actualy use them. so, if the lawyer is good enough, they can even get an absolutory sentence.
anyway, they deserve it because they're using edonkey
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 17:41 Post subject: |
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| kumkss wrote: | | AnimalMother wrote: | | [sYn] wrote: |
Why should a downloader be made to pay retail price for a product which he only stole the license.. that probably being the least expensive (or profitable) part of the item itself. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me.
|
The cost of the physical item is negligible at best. You're paying for the interllectual property. People don't buy music CD's for the case, or the CD itself, they pay for the data on the disk. Thats whats valuable.
I thought you would be smart enough to realise this. |
i disagree. when i buy a music cd for example, i do it most of the time because of the case, photos in it, letters, or just to have some quality cd in my collection. not for the music itself, because, you can have them as mp3, wich can be played in most of modern equipments.
btw. isn't a counter sense, that music equipments plays the mp3?
but, yeah, stealing is stealing. now, the funny thing is that i bet most of those 3.500 ppl, were only "deppositarys" of the shared content, and didn't actualy use them. so, if the lawyer is good enough, they can even get an absolutory sentence.
anyway, they deserve it because they're using edonkey |
In most cases the cd covers also gets out on the net, and a color printer is pretty common these days.
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 18:04 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | [sYn] wrote: |
Why should a downloader be made to pay retail price for a product which he only stole the license.. that probably being the least expensive (or profitable) part of the item itself. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me.
|
The cost of the physical item is negligible at best. You're paying for the interllectual property. People don't buy music CD's for the case, or the CD itself, they pay for the data on the disk. Thats whats valuable.
I thought you would be smart enough to realise this. |
Ouuuchh.. I think you took my point to literally.
My comments where based around the fact that the companies themselves state that a large amount of the price is based around the marketing and packaging of a product. The overall IP of the data is without a doubt the valuable commodity but as a singular unit it isn't that huge. OF COURSE people dont buy a CD for the packaging, but it DOES matter, people do buy the real deal to have it physically, producers of these products know this, why else would so much money be spent on creating a nice looking CD cover commissioned by some topofhisday artist..
Anyway, without figures no one can really prove the point, but my opinion still totally stands that physical and digital theft may be the same thing, but in my opinion they're certainly not comparable.
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 18:10 Post subject: |
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| [sYn] wrote: |
why else would so much money be spent on creating a nice looking CD cover commissioned by some topofhisday artist..
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To attract attention to the disk when it's on the shelves? Thats at least one aspectr.
I agree, marketing is a big factor, but that applies equally to the physical and the digital product.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
Last edited by AnimalMother on Wed, 24th May 2006 18:21; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 18:21 Post subject: |
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| D_A_Kuja wrote: |
The difference here is clear, in the latter case I´m reducing the amount of copies available for sale, in the former I´m not harming the industry in the slightest way (as long as I m not distributing it).
Sure, stealing a physical copy of a product hardly makes a difference financially, but thats not the point here.
|
If we're not talking about harming the industry financially, what are we talking about?
Reducing the amount of copies for sale is hardly a factor as most producers of the products we're referring to fabricate far more of a product then is ever sold.
Lets say you're just stealing the disk, because most users don't bother to download the manual and boxart and print it all out. Then the difference is even less.
Hypothetically, lets consider this scenario. Knowing that a company has produced far more disks then it will ever sell, would you class taking a few disks from the production facility as theft? Considering that the company would never be aware that any disks went missing.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 20:26 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | D_A_Kuja wrote: |
The difference here is clear, in the latter case I´m reducing the amount of copies available for sale, in the former I´m not harming the industry in the slightest way (as long as I m not distributing it).
Sure, stealing a physical copy of a product hardly makes a difference financially, but thats not the point here.
|
If we're not talking about harming the industry financially, what are we talking about?
Reducing the amount of copies for sale is hardly a factor as most producers of the products we're referring to fabricate far more of a product then is ever sold.
Lets say you're just stealing the disk, because most users don't bother to download the manual and boxart and print it all out. Then the difference is even less.
Hypothetically, lets consider this scenario. Knowing that a company has produced far more disks then it will ever sell, would you class taking a few disks from the production facility as theft? Considering that the company would never be aware that any disks went missing. |
You´re assuming the company has produced more discs than they ll ever sell, which is true in many but by far not all cases. Some companies underestimate their product and are unprepared, hence experiencing a shortage.
Yes, taking discs from the production facility is theft, same as it is stealing it from a store,
or downloading it from the net.
But these kinds of thefts arent on the same level, on one side is a physical theft that directly harms the industry (assuming that there isnt a vast amount of copies), on the other side a digital theft that only interferes with the license agreement as long as the data is not distributed further. |
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 21:41 Post subject: |
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You're talking about stealing a car. By downloading you're merely duplicating what's already there. Some things you need now because licenses are just rediculously high. There is no real direct correlation between those who pirate wares and those who buy the stuff.
Look at games. Arguably the most downloaded games are also those which are bought the most. Similarly with TV eps and films too. Some people like to have the best of both worlds.
the 1000 euro price tag slapped on each song is because hypotetically you could upload that file an infinate number of times. Not for the £1 it would cost you to get it from itunes or whatever.
For college I did a presentation on warez. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warez is a pretty good article with points for and against.
I'm not against people sharing files, but I am against people selling them at a cost. There's a big difference between using it for personal use and making money out of something you don't own.
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_SiN_
Megatron
Posts: 12108
Location: Cybertron
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 22:31 Post subject: |
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| Sublime wrote: | | I'm not against people sharing files, but I am against people selling them at a cost. There's a big difference between using it for personal use and making money out of something you don't own. |
QFT.
Watercooled 5950X | AORUS Master X570 | Asus RTX 3090 TUF Gaming OC | 64Gb RAM | 1Tb 970 Evo Plus + 2Tb 660p | etc etc
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 24th May 2006 23:00 Post subject: |
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Downloading things for personal use is ok in my books. As long as your not making a profit or distributing media's then whats the problem?
Plus, I like to try shit before I buy it. Every game Ive bought for the PC in the last...oh, 5 years lets say, Ive tried first. There's no way Im gunna drop $60 on a new game only to find out that its a complete POS and not worth the money. Its not like you can return videogames nowadays. Once the box is open, your either stuck with it or you have to settle for the trade in value which is a fraction of the initial cost.
I like having the book and the box and the cd inserts and shit like that...something I put on my shelf, not just a burned cd amoungst many.
Its a shame the organized crime groups bring attention to everything and fuck up harmless fun.
Plus, how many kids can afford the newest, best game that comes out? Every other week you gotta bug your parents to drop $60 on a game that is a) shit or b) has no replay value whatsoever.
People will always buy various media's...just now the bar is being raised and those making the media have to include more content for the dollar to make the sale.
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nouseforaname
Über-VIP Member
Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 25th May 2006 00:16 Post subject: |
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For me it's as simple as this.
Download anything from these guys:
| Quote: | * Universal Music Group ($7 billion revenue), which includes A&M, Decca/London, Deutsche Grammophon, Geffen, Interscope, Island Def Jam, Motown, Philips, Rampagge, Universal, and others;
* Sony BMG Music Entertainment ($5 billion), which includes: Arista, (American) Columbia, Epic, J, Jive, LaFace, Ravenous, RCA and others;
* EMI Group ($4 billion), which includes Angel, Blue Note, Capitol, European Columbia, Elektrola, Odeon, Parlophone, Pathé Marconi, Positiva, Virgin and others;
* Warner Music Group (a.k.a. WEA) ($2.5 billion), which includes Asylum, Atlantic, Elektra, Erato, Reprise, Rhino, Rykodisc, Sire, Sub Pop (49% Warner ownership), and others.
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Try to buy, or at least support (going to shows, buying merch) music from these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Independent_record_labels
and btw,
| Quote: | | non-membership in the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) (and its foreign counterparts) is increasingly seen as a prerequisite for a label to be truly independent |
asus z170-A || core i5-6600K || geforce gtx 970 4gb || 16gb ddr4 ram || win10 || 1080p led samsung 27"
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| Posted: Thu, 25th May 2006 09:03 Post subject: |
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D/L for personal use I think is ok, except if you are making money off it. Rude!
For the most part I like to try out different software, see what's out there . I don’t use any of it for professional use but who knows maybe one day I might and I will have a better idea as to what fits my needs and I will learn the new stuff quicker.
As far as movies and music, if you are a real collector you want the legit copy with the case and cover. For me, Richie Havens and Bubba sparx are 2 examples I would of never been exposed to if it wasn’t for d/l’s. I bought those.
I may be delusional but I like (love) to do any type of cover myself, and I think mine are better. hahaha I never grab the real ones.
(I always buy the stuff from a certian director because I feel he gets shortchanged from all the mainstream, not so bright reality TV
I don’t really have any moral issues with this.
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| Posted: Thu, 25th May 2006 11:32 Post subject: |
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I guess most people don't have any moral issues with it because they convince themselves it isn't stealing.
Personally I don't have any moral objections because I see a difference between stealing from a corporation and stealing from an individual.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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