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LeoNatan
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 Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007 23:56 Post subject: Silicon Knights sues Epic |
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| Quote: | Silicon Knights Serves Epic Games With Lawsuit, Claims Unreal Engine 3 Negligence (Updated)
Silicon Knights, developer of upcoming Microsoft-published Xbox 360 action game Too Human, has sued Epic Games due to grievances with Epic's handling of its widely-licensed Unreal Engine 3. News of the suit came from Epic Games, which notified the press of the legal action. Silicon Knights issued a press release, and the full lawsuit was made available by San Francisco-based law firm Krieg, Keller, Sloan, Reilley & Roman LLP. Microsoft has claimed a lack of involvement in the suit.
The thrust of the complaint seems centered around E3 2006, where Too Human was demonstrated and subsequently criticized for, as the lawsuit describes, "technical problems and generally unpolished appearance." Silicon claims that Epic withheld a "very useable version" of the Xbox 360 engine for its own purposes, only delivering a fully functional version of the software in November of that year--roughly eight months past the original March 2006 deadline. |
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/48041
Sorry if it has been posted before (didn't see it), but actually made me laugh, so I'm posting. |
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:02 Post subject: |
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lmao fucking retards. I hope Epic choke slams them into a sewer
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:05 Post subject: |
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^i thought the same at first... read closer, epic really did foul up. i know of 2 off the top of my head, one other game and this... sk are the only ones to file a lawsuit
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:09 Post subject: |
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Well I'm sure if they read the contract better, they'll see that Epic is not obligated to provide them with every little beta of the engine. Moreover, what reason does Epic have to deny them the engine? An engine's quality is measured by the quality of its games, and holding back just to make their game look better is plain silly.
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:10 Post subject: |
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Whatever their reasons they still have a legitimate complaint. By licensing the engine (which costs a ridiculous amount) they are entitled to any upgrades as soon as they become available.
If they believe that epic withheld an updated build, which subsequently had a negative impact on the marketing of their game then I can see their grievance. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on an engine license, the least they can expect is epics full support.
I bet Silicon Knights tried for an out of court settlement, something like $50,000 compensation, and when epic refused it came to this.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:24 Post subject: |
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Doesn't seem like Epic's style TBH. They have a reputation with some of the funnest games and amazing engines, curious what their motivation for doing this was.
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:31 Post subject: |
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LOL at this hole thing - Silicon Knights sues Epic , because they can`t optimize the engine to run they new game smooth on xbox360 
hahahahhaha thats funny shit , looks like its true what they say that in America every thing has to have a instruction how to use it even a Screw driver or a sign that Coffee is hot
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:32 Post subject: |
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Well the engine is Epic's so even if there was something wrong I'm sure they knew how to code around it and so forth. SK has/had nothing to do with GOW, to me it seems like their just jealous that the game did so good. GOW isn't the first game released that used the engine. Look at RS:Vegas. Those gaems that used it obviously didn't have any troubles so what's SK's deal?
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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:37 Post subject: |
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Their deal is they suck at development, they can't release the game, and they want money.
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Parallax_
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 00:53 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | By licensing the engine (which costs a ridiculous amount) they are entitled to any upgrades as soon as they become available. |
All license costs are under NDA, so anything is speculative. But in fact, UE3 costs are determined on a per-case basis, so licensing costs vary a lot from project to project.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759
Read their claims, it is ridiculous to say the least. What Silicon Knights are trying to do is:
1) Gain the funds that Epic earned from GoW
2) Terminate their UE3 license agreement, yet retain all license rights.
Now it might or might not be the case that Silicon Knight did not get the 360 code in time for E3 - although I have my doubts this was the case. Epic has a long history of supporting licensees. They have given away all the content from their games to help people get started. This was done with both UE2 and UE2.5, among other things. Developers who license UE3 receive an account with direct access to Epic's Perforce source control system, for checking out work in progress, obtaining bug fixes and code updates, and monitoring revision history to keep abreast of day-to-day development activity on UE3.
Take a look at the development fiasco that is Too Human. The game has been in development since pre-1999. Originally slated as a 5-disc game for Playstation, but shortly before its "completion", Nintendo announced an exclusive partnership with Silicon Knights, and the game was moved to Gamecube in 2000. After some time and nothing to show for but a pre-rendered trailer, the plans for the Gamecube version was canned - until the game resurfaced as a trilogy on the 360 in 2005. They are not exactly a developer known for their skills, at least when it comes to their almost-vaporware Too Human game. My personal bet is they simply could not optimize UE3 in time for E3. Now they are looking for some extra funds since, as they say, they are "100% self-funded".
Silicon Knights claim that many other UE3 licenses did not get the support they wanted. Well, where are they? I don't see any complains from Ubisoft, EA, Vivendi, or the hundreds of other publishers and developers who licenses the engine. In fact, I see them taking immense advantage of the engine. Look at BioShock, Stranglehold, Blacksite Area 51, Mass Effect, MOHAA, etc, etc.
There's a multitude of other reasons why Epic has everything in the clear in this matter, but I think this covers the basics.
Of course you could always listen to PR-saint Mark Rein: "This morning we were served with a lawsuit by Silicon Knights. We believe the claims against us are unfounded and without merit and we intend to fully defend against them".  |
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 01:00 Post subject: |
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Fair enough Parallax, I didn't really look into the details of the case, but assumed that Silicon Knights must have a legitimate grievance to try and go up against Epic.
Obviously they're getting desperate, Too Human would seem to be a financial black hole, so I guess they need to find the money somewhere!
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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LeoNatan
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Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 01:00 Post subject: |
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Yeah... What, Ubisoft got the right engine to make Vegas, but SK got the shit? Please... Even Roboblitz had the latest version of the engine (at the time anyway).
Oh, and Parallax, it's MOHA, not MOHAA. MOHAA = Allied Assault, MOHA = Airborne. 
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 01:13 Post subject: |
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I think we should give parallax a tag..
Parallax_ [Epic Defender & Specialist] Very good read though Parallax.
No wonder their poor, they don't exactly have a good record of games other than twin snakes for gamecube and eternal darkness
Amiga
Cyber Empires
Atari ST
Cyber Empires
GameCube
Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes
Too Human
Nintendo 64
Eternal Darkness N64
PC
Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain
Cyber Empires
Dark Legions
Dungeons & Dragons: Fantasy Empires
PlayStation
Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain
Too Human
PlayStation 3
Silicon Knights Next-Gen Project [untitled]
Saturn
Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain
Xbox 360
Silicon Knights Next-Gen Project [untitled]
Too Human
Last edited by SpykeZ on Sat, 21st Jul 2007 01:16; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 01:15 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | | Parallax_ [Epic Defender & Specialist] |
Or simply [Epic Fanboi] Nah, I'm a fanboi of theirs as well. How can one not be? |
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 01:57 Post subject: |
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I absolutely loved Blood Omen for the original Playstation though.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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Freudian
Posts: 364
Location: Din mamma!
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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 03:23 Post subject: |
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Enemy Territories is not UT3 game.
I was referring to their games and engines. Sure, you won't be convinced of the engine's greatness until more games are out, but just by looking at screenshots I can be sure of that.
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Freudian
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 03:42 Post subject: |
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I most certainly agree with you that it could all be one huge disappointment, but you know, it's Epic, and I'm a fanboi already, so...
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 03:52 Post subject: |
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| Freudian wrote: | | LeoNatan wrote: | Enemy Territories is not UT3 game.
I was referring to their games and engines. Sure, you won't be convinced of the engine's greatness until more games are out, but just by looking at screenshots I can be sure of that. |
Oh sorry, I'm a bit tired I guess
Why? Did GameTrailers say it will be a great engine? 
No... But my point here is that, sure, it might be a great engine, (though for me it's SO much more about physics than cool lightning effects) but one should wait and see the results before becoming a fanboi.
So... UE3 might make me one of its fanbois in the future, but at this moment I'm far from impressed. |
I think you need to take their reputation into consideration. As stated above Quake wars (if that's the enemy territory you were talking abtou) is using the doom 3 engine.
Vegas was nothing more than a shitty port from UBI soft which they didn't implement the multithreading like they should have, that would have given the game quite the boost in performance.
It more relies on what the developer can do with the engine rather than what the engine is capable of (to a certain extent) |
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 04:26 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: |
If you had a 360 you would see what the UE3 is capable of. As it is, you dismiss consoles as a kiddies toy. Your loss. |
Or he could wait until november and play UT3, which will most definaitly showcase the power of the engine. If that's not enough, wait 1 more month and play Gears PC.
BACK ON TOPIC; I can see their complaint, but they seem paranoid if they think Epic did it to promote their own game. They've NEVER had trouble selling titles in the past, and their software always spoke for itself (UT2004 apparently had some issues with online exploits but I usually just played at LANs so I didn't notice).
If ubisoft did a decent job with the engine(try the 360 version of vegas, ubisoft doesn't develop PC games anymore), I don't see why these people can't.
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Freudian
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 12:35 Post subject: |
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| Freudian wrote: | Well... So far, what games has UE3 given us that tells us it's such a great engine?
I played Vegas - Not impressed at all about the engine.
I played Enemy Territories - Same. |
Vegas, while not being up to the high graphical standard of Gears of War, is none the less a great game to play (of course referring to the console version here). Gears of War, well, if you haven't tried it yet cause you don't like consoles, it is a superb game in many ways.
Of course you have two other little games, Roboblitz and Monster Madness, they are not heavy on the graphics and they are not shooters - what does that tell you? That the engine is capable making more things than just FPS'. In fact a lot more things, puzzle games, racers, etc. Just wait and see for the upcoming games.
How can you confuse Enemy Territory for running on UE3, don't you know anything about engines at all?
| Quote: | What games have I missed where UE3 shows what it's made of?
Or are you simply referring to Epic and the games they've made? |
Except for the games listed above, you have not missed any RELEASED games, but you should definitively pay attention to all the upcoming games that are running on UE3.
Just to name a few:
- BioShock
- Blacksite: Area 51
- Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway
- Elveon
- Fatal Inertia
- Interstellar Marines
- Mass Effect
- Medal of Honor: Airborne
- Mortal Kombat 8
- Section 8
- Stranglehold
- Turok next-gen
- Unreal Tournament 3
- Warmonger
- Undertow
Of course you will be missing quite a few of these if you are sticking with only one system, the PC. There are loads of more unannounced projects that will be using UE3 as well. Just about half the gaming world has licensed this engine, and it isn't because it sucks.
| Freudian wrote: | | No... But my point here is that, sure, it might be a great engine, (though for me it's SO much more about physics than cool lightning effects) but one should wait and see the results before becoming a fanboi. |
The use of physics depend on the game you are playing, because UE3 fully supports any physics system you might want (Ageia, Havok, Meqon, etc). You would know UE3 supports much more than "cool lighting effects" if you had read through the feature list of the engine, or read interviews with Tim Sweeney and Epic.
Yes, I suppose people might call be an Epic fanboy, however I like other engine companies as well, such as id. I know you like Valve, but I don't have much respect for them after they lied about the Half-Life 2 release date, as well as their mediocre engine.
Epic has a long-standing track record of supporting not only their licensees, but especially their community. That makes them differ from any competitor out there. Yes, there are a fair amount of mods for Half-Life 2, but the number doesn't even come close by a mile to the amount of UT2004 mods there are, and Valve's community and SDK support is very poor in comparison. Just ask any mod team |
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 14:40 Post subject: |
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What about Roboblitz? It's an UE3 game, and it should make Freudian's mind.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 16:25 Post subject: |
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for a publicity stunt, this would be too obvious and also dangerous, so i think that the case might be a genuine one, where somebody fucked up and somebody else sues em for it.
I hope the outcome of the law-suit will get the same publicity, because often one never gets to hear the verdicts, but only that a sued b and then all further info ends up somewhere in the void of out-of-court settlements or the verdicts are ignored by the press...
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007 16:28 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | What about Roboblitz? It's an UE3 game, and it should make Freudian's mind. |
that fucker never installed right on my system, so i guess i should sue epic too |
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