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 Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 18:24 Post subject: this is another thing im pig fucking sick of....Big Brother |
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| Quote: | Ministers have been accused of building a national DNA database "by stealth" by retaining profiles of nearly 40,000 children never convicted of a crime.
The government confirmed there were 39,095 DNA profiles of 10-18 year olds who were never cautioned or charged.
The government - which is allowed to keep DNA samples on file - says the database is an important police tool.
But Lib Dem spokesman Chris Huhne said there was "no excuse" for storing the DNA of "blameless children".
'Startling figures'
Last month a government-funded inquiry recommended that DNA profiles of people who had never been convicted of a crime should be removed from the database, which it said should be controlled by an independent body.
But currently samples from anyone in England and Wales - innocent or guilty - can be kept on file indefinitely.
In Scotland DNA samples taken when people are arrested must be destroyed if the individual is not charged or convicted - unless they are accused of a violent or sexual crime.
Junior Minister Meg Hillier confirmed on Friday that there were 349,934 DNA profiles of under-18s on the database - 87.1% of which had been either convicted, cautioned, or had received a final warning.
She also acknowledged there were 39,095 DNA profiles of youngsters who were never cautioned or charged.
Mr Huhne, the Lib Dems' home affairs spokesman, said: "These startling figures show that the government is building a national DNA database by stealth.
Dominic Grieve
Conservatives
"There can be no excuse for storing the DNA of innocent adults, let alone children, who are entirely blameless."
He said many people with criminal records were not on the database and said the government could not be trusted with its security.
For the Conservatives, shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve said there should be a Parliamentary debate on the issue, and the DNA database should be put on a statutory basis.
"This is yet more evidence that the DNA database is totally arbitrary with tens of thousands of innocent kids on it but not every offender in our prisons," he said.
'Cold cases'
But the Home Office argues the database has revolutionised the way the police protect the public and is a "key" instrument in the fight against violent crime, burglaries and rape.
It says that in a 12-month period between 2006 and 2007, DNA evidence had been used in police investigations into 644 rapes, 222 other sexual offences, 1,900 violent crimes and more than 8,500 domestic burglaries.
The UK has the largest police DNA database in the world, with more than four million people on file, and it has been used to solve a number of "cold case" inquiries in recent years.
In England and Wales people who give samples during arrest, but are later not charged or are cleared, can apply to the chief constable to have them removed in "exceptional circumstances".
#Ministers have been accused of building a national DNA database "by stealth" by retaining profiles of nearly 40,000 children never convicted of a crime.
The government confirmed there were 39,095 DNA profiles of 10-18 year olds who were never cautioned or charged.
The government - which is allowed to keep DNA samples on file - says the database is an important police tool.
But Lib Dem spokesman Chris Huhne said there was "no excuse" for storing the DNA of "blameless children".
'Startling figures'
Last month a government-funded inquiry recommended that DNA profiles of people who had never been convicted of a crime should be removed from the database, which it said should be controlled by an independent body.
But currently samples from anyone in England and Wales - innocent or guilty - can be kept on file indefinitely.
In Scotland DNA samples taken when people are arrested must be destroyed if the individual is not charged or convicted - unless they are accused of a violent or sexual crime.
Junior Minister Meg Hillier confirmed on Friday that there were 349,934 DNA profiles of under-18s on the database - 87.1% of which had been either convicted, cautioned, or had received a final warning.
She also acknowledged there were 39,095 DNA profiles of youngsters who were never cautioned or charged.
Mr Huhne, the Lib Dems' home affairs spokesman, said: "These startling figures show that the government is building a national DNA database by stealth.
This is yet more evidence that the DNA database is totally arbitrary with tens of thousands of innocent kids on it but not every offender in our prisons
Dominic Grieve
Conservatives
"There can be no excuse for storing the DNA of innocent adults, let alone children, who are entirely blameless."
He said many people with criminal records were not on the database and said the government could not be trusted with its security.
For the Conservatives, shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve said there should be a Parliamentary debate on the issue, and the DNA database should be put on a statutory basis.
"This is yet more evidence that the DNA database is totally arbitrary with tens of thousands of innocent kids on it but not every offender in our prisons," he said.
'Cold cases'
But the Home Office argues the database has revolutionised the way the police protect the public and is a "key" instrument in the fight against violent crime, burglaries and rape.
It says that in a 12-month period between 2006 and 2007, DNA evidence had been used in police investigations into 644 rapes, 222 other sexual offences, 1,900 violent crimes and more than 8,500 domestic burglaries.
The UK has the largest police DNA database in the world, with more than four million people on file, and it has been used to solve a number of "cold case" inquiries in recent years.
In England and Wales people who give samples during arrest, but are later not charged or are cleared, can apply to the chief constable to have them removed in "exceptional circumstances". |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7563850.stm
Will it ever end, tell you what, be done with it and just have everyone's on file.
Wankers, utter wankers.
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 18:54 Post subject: |
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I like it how how anytime some government improves it's abilities of inspection or investigation of possible / existing threats there are those who jump screaming "OMG Big Brother 1984 is here".
DNA samples can solve many possible crimes in the future and give criminals second thoughts about making mistakes.
And unless your government arrests people for being spotted masturbating in their flat during lunchtime, youre not living Oceania.
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nouseforaname
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Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:02 Post subject: |
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| mark322 wrote: | | I like it how how anytime some government improves it's abilities of inspection or investigation of possible / existing threats there are those who jump screaming "OMG Big Brother 1984 is here". |
The government can improve their ability to suck my dick. No-fucking-body has the right to keep my DNA on file, for any reason EVER. Fuck those cunts.
asus z170-A || core i5-6600K || geforce gtx 970 4gb || 16gb ddr4 ram || win10 || 1080p led samsung 27"
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:06 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | | [The government can improve their ability to suck my dick. No-fucking-body has the right to keep my DNA on file, for any reason EVER. Fuck those cunts. |
Why are you so afraid of having your DNA on file? They got you Name, date of birth, citizenship and address, then why not your DNA?
Last edited by oxyeL on Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:07; edited 1 time in total
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Przepraszam
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Posts: 14467
Location: Poland. New York.
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:07 Post subject: |
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After seeing all those Law and Order episodess...dont know if that happens in real life but mistakes happen >><<
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nouseforaname
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Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:11 Post subject: |
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| mark322 wrote: | | nouseforaname wrote: | | [The government can improve their ability to suck my dick. No-fucking-body has the right to keep my DNA on file, for any reason EVER. Fuck those cunts. |
Why are you so afraid of having your DNA on file? They got you Name, date of birth, citizenship and address, then why not your DNA? |
Because they have no fucking right to, that's why. And who knows what this information would be used for in the future -- there is far more than just crime fighting that it could be used for.
asus z170-A || core i5-6600K || geforce gtx 970 4gb || 16gb ddr4 ram || win10 || 1080p led samsung 27"
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:14 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | | mark322 wrote: | | nouseforaname wrote: | | [The government can improve their ability to suck my dick. No-fucking-body has the right to keep my DNA on file, for any reason EVER. Fuck those cunts. |
Why are you so afraid of having your DNA on file? They got you Name, date of birth, citizenship and address, then why not your DNA? |
Because they have no fucking right to, that's why. And who knows what this information would be used for in the future -- there is far more than just crime fighting that it could be used for. |
Like what? I can't see any possible way of how law obeying people could possibly get harmed by this.
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Cohen
Posts: 7155
Location: Rapture
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nouseforaname
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Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:32 Post subject: |
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| mark322 wrote: | | nouseforaname wrote: | | Because they have no fucking right to, that's why. And who knows what this information would be used for in the future -- there is far more than just crime fighting that it could be used for. |
Like what? I can't see any possible way of how law obeying people could possibly get harmed by this. |
genetic predisposition to disease can be used against you in many ways.
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:34 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | | mark322 wrote: | | nouseforaname wrote: | | [The government can improve their ability to suck my dick. No-fucking-body has the right to keep my DNA on file, for any reason EVER. Fuck those cunts. |
Why are you so afraid of having your DNA on file? They got you Name, date of birth, citizenship and address, then why not your DNA? |
Because they have no fucking right to, that's why. And who knows what this information would be used for in the future -- there is far more than just crime fighting that it could be used for. |
Exactly. To mark
To mark322
Who says that information is going to be stored with privacy in mind. It could be used against you to frame you for crime, it could be mismangaged. For example it could be sold to research companies. This has happened before in our government. Government computers get taken, files become public, they even ended up selling our personal information to mass marketers and phone lists. We hire non-government agencies to monitor these programs that are based in the US, and that means that US privacy laws apply to Canadian cit. Just naming a few. Until it is not an idiot system I don't want my DNA on file.
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:43 Post subject: |
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Your personal information will leak, with or without your DNA info. If the government really wants they can frame you without your DNA.
People are over estimating their own government when they actually believe these conspiracy theories that their own government can frame anyone they want, and do whatever they want above the law without getting caught. Stop being paranoid. The government is composed by regular people, with no 'super conspiracy' powers, and are monitored all the time by all kinds of politically untied and opposition entities. It will be almost impossible for your government to conduct these conspiracy theories you fear from that much.
In the end everyone will know everything about you if they would want to and you can't stop that.
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 19:45 Post subject: |
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| pistolshrimp wrote: | | Who says that information is going to be stored with privacy in mind. It could be used against you to frame you for crime, it could be mismangaged. For example it could be sold to research companies. This has happened before in our government. Government computers get taken, files become public, they even ended up selling our personal information to mass marketers and phone lists. We hire non-government agencies to monitor these programs that are based in the US, and that means that US privacy laws apply to Canadian cit. Just naming a few. Until it is not an idiot system I don't want my DNA on file. |
You said nothing that couldn't happen already... There's so many information about you that can be leaked and exploited, that it makes your DNA almost useless for people since it can't be used for nothing more than identification, using current technology of course. What will happen in the future is another issue.
Anyway the possibility that the the number of murders / rapes would drop drastically thanks to DNA profiling still has much more value than the possibility of it being leaked or abused against innocent people (something which can be done already even without having their DNA).
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 21:59 Post subject: |
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they dress it up as 'protecting people'. no. its not. ive done fuck all wrong. get rid of my data. you have o right to keep it. oh 'just in case you ever do commit a cr.....oh bollox, you talk shit. get rid of it.
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Phluxed
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Posts: 4911
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 15th Aug 2008 23:42 Post subject: |
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I pretty much am in agreement with x_dror.
I basically am of the state of mind, they can get my DNA easily if they want to frame me for something. Break into my house, steal some of my shit, tadah, my DNA, me framed.
I'd happily give my DNA to my government as long as they use it not only for the ability to exclude people from crimes but also to use it in mass research on DNA.
Venter decoded human DNA but we're not exploring it on mass scale. I'm really interested to see where it can go. I'd also like a free report on my DNA telling me which diseases I'm susceptable to etc. Something every child should now have at birth, but doesn't. We're wasting science, and for the betterment of the human race I would gladly give up my DNA.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 00:20 Post subject: |
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| Phluxed wrote: | I pretty much am in agreement with x_dror.
I basically am of the state of mind, they can get my DNA easily if they want to frame me for something. Break into my house, steal some of my shit, tadah, my DNA, me framed.
I'd happily give my DNA to my government as long as they use it not only for the ability to exclude people from crimes but also to use it in mass research on DNA.
Venter decoded human DNA but we're not exploring it on mass scale. I'm really interested to see where it can go. I'd also like a free report on my DNA telling me which diseases I'm susceptable to etc. Something every child should now have at birth, but doesn't. We're wasting science, and for the betterment of the human race I would gladly give up my DNA. |
^ Mirrors my thoughts exactly.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 04:50 Post subject: |
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Any evidence may be used AGAINST you in a court of law. AGAINST. see?
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Phluxed
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Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 05:10 Post subject: |
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See what? I understand that concept man.. but if someone wants to frame me, they can literally just break into my house, steal my comb or swap my toothbrush, my clothes, whatever, and tadah, they have evidence to frame me.
If there is a database of my DNA, and they use that DNA to frame me, it just expedites the process, but at least there is a paper trail.. I dunno, your point there is completely moot.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 05:42 Post subject: |
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| X_Dror wrote: | ]Your personal information will leak, with or without your DNA info. If the government really wants they can frame you without your DNA.
People are over estimating their own government when they actually believe these conspiracy theories that their own government can frame anyone they want, and do whatever they want above the law without getting caught. Stop being paranoid. The government is composed by regular people, with no 'super conspiracy' powers, and are monitored all the time by all kinds of politically untied and opposition entities. It will be almost impossible for your government to conduct these conspiracy theories you fear from that much.
In the end everyone will know everything about you if they would want to and you can't stop that. |
I am not really thinking about conspiracy, at least toward me. I think it might be a fuck up in the system. DNA office Mismatch, Mass data collecting has LOTS OF MISTAKES. (I am sure there are a few people here that can verify that) Your country is really small so it can manage that type of stuff better. My country (canada) and our neighbours (us) are run by a different system, everything is entered by computer data clerks who don't give a shit. I worked for the system and I saw first hand the fuck ups. People make mistakes.
I am taking my own experiences into account too, a bunch of medical files, women who had abortions (med files are the most private) ended up on someone's front lawn for everyone to see. (I don't have the link but I am sure there is one) I thought that was disgusting.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 09:27 Post subject: |
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| pistolshrimp wrote: | | X_Dror wrote: | ]Your personal information will leak, with or without your DNA info. If the government really wants they can frame you without your DNA.
People are over estimating their own government when they actually believe these conspiracy theories that their own government can frame anyone they want, and do whatever they want above the law without getting caught. Stop being paranoid. The government is composed by regular people, with no 'super conspiracy' powers, and are monitored all the time by all kinds of politically untied and opposition entities. It will be almost impossible for your government to conduct these conspiracy theories you fear from that much.
In the end everyone will know everything about you if they would want to and you can't stop that. |
I am not really thinking about conspiracy, at least toward me. I think it might be a fuck up in the system. DNA office Mismatch, Mass data collecting has LOTS OF MISTAKES. (I am sure there are a few people here that can verify that) Your country is really small so it can manage that type of stuff better. My country (canada) and our neighbours (us) are run by a different system, everything is entered by computer data clerks who don't give a shit. I worked for the system and I saw first hand the fuck ups. People make mistakes.
I am taking my own experiences into account too, a bunch of medical files, women who had abortions (med files are the most private) ended up on someone's front lawn for everyone to see. (I don't have the link but I am sure there is one) I thought that was disgusting. |
But what about all the crimes that could be solved or prevented thanks to this system? Nothing is perfect, but there's always the lesser evil.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 09:55 Post subject: |
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| mark322 wrote: | | pistolshrimp wrote: | | X_Dror wrote: | ]Your personal information will leak, with or without your DNA info. If the government really wants they can frame you without your DNA.
People are over estimating their own government when they actually believe these conspiracy theories that their own government can frame anyone they want, and do whatever they want above the law without getting caught. Stop being paranoid. The government is composed by regular people, with no 'super conspiracy' powers, and are monitored all the time by all kinds of politically untied and opposition entities. It will be almost impossible for your government to conduct these conspiracy theories you fear from that much.
In the end everyone will know everything about you if they would want to and you can't stop that. |
I am not really thinking about conspiracy, at least toward me. I think it might be a fuck up in the system. DNA office Mismatch, Mass data collecting has LOTS OF MISTAKES. (I am sure there are a few people here that can verify that) Your country is really small so it can manage that type of stuff better. My country (canada) and our neighbours (us) are run by a different system, everything is entered by computer data clerks who don't give a shit. I worked for the system and I saw first hand the fuck ups. People make mistakes.
I am taking my own experiences into account too, a bunch of medical files, women who had abortions (med files are the most private) ended up on someone's front lawn for everyone to see. (I don't have the link but I am sure there is one) I thought that was disgusting. |
But what about all the crimes that could be solved or prevented thanks to this system? Nothing is perfect, but there's always the lesser evil. |
I want those crimes to be solved too. I want those people who were wrongfully convicted in the first place to have a second chance at a hearing. That is what is fair.
I just don't believe in a police state(US) or Prov.(Can), which is what DNA data base is. As an idea it is great but I have lost my belief that it would be used for the greater good. Here it takes 2 or more years for a criminal to get to a trial. Air India bomber is out today. From my experience, it will just be used against you. True criminals don't have to pay for what they do here. We have such an imperfect system that my conscience can not agree with it. As of yet anyway.
I don't believe anything would be solved or prevented because we do not have those safe guards in effect. There is no way we can prevent a crime, unless it is on tv.
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Phluxed
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Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 12:23 Post subject: |
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I'm a walking crime... of FASHION. STOP THAT.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008 13:49 Post subject: |
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I think your all over paranoid. A DNA database would be great and everyone should be legally obligated to give a sample. Unless your planning to do a major crime theres no reason for you to oppose it. This would help catch criminals so much that there wouldn't need to be long investigation's most of the time. Crime rates may take a nose dive once people realize that leaving anything behind will lead to a 100% conviction rate.
For those who think this process would be abused and used to frame others... The only people would could successfully pull it off is the governments that adopt this method. But lets face it they would never need to go that far to frame you in their own country in their own courtrooms in the first place.
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ChinUp
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nouseforaname
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon, 18th Aug 2008 01:09 Post subject: |
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yeah, just imagine how lazy cops will be when they already have slam dunk DNA evidence.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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WaldoJ
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| Posted: Mon, 18th Aug 2008 01:17 Post subject: |
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but you'll only get shafted if you dun follow the rules of the governaments 
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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| Posted: Mon, 18th Aug 2008 07:19 Post subject: |
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Just wondering something here.
How NuclearShadow, mark322, X_Dror all think this is a good step of gov. All have military training. I am a synic
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| Posted: Mon, 18th Aug 2008 07:33 Post subject: |
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| pistolshrimp wrote: | Just wondering something here.
How NuclearShadow, mark322, X_Dror all think this is a good step of gov. All have military training. I am a synic |
I don't have army training =/ And I doubt Phluxed has either.
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Phluxed
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Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon, 18th Aug 2008 13:08 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: | | pistolshrimp wrote: | Just wondering something here.
How NuclearShadow, mark322, X_Dror all think this is a good step of gov. All have military training. I am a synic |
I don't have army training =/ And I doubt Phluxed has either. |
Zero army training.
And we are on the exact same wavelength too. Basically the exact same thoughts and feelings on the matter.
I really don't have an answer as to what drives this. I am a very government oriented person. I can be one of those "If people were perfect, communism would never fail" kind of people. I really feel that one day things will change and the paranoia of the government will fail.
I really really really hope one day I can be part of that. I have a dream of becoming part of the Canadian government in my 50s or something... |
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I know police officers who don't want their DNA taken, i wonder why.
