What's up with gamers not demanding quality these days?
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AKofC




Posts: 4359

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 17:30    Post subject: What's up with gamers not demanding quality these days?
Majority of them seem content with half baked products that developers let out into the market because people still buy them anyway.

If gamers are content with the dumbing down or 'streamlining' as developers call it, of games then this only leads to developers not bothering to make great games anymore since a lot of people still buy mediocre games. This allows them to achieve profit with minimal effort.

And if anything, they argue that modders will make these half baked products better, which is worse since it encourages developers to not give a shit and just let the modding community finish their game.

Now I'm not saying developers should not be in it for the money, because they should be. That's how capitalism works. But as gamers, we should make them actually work for that money by providing quality games and not half assed 'efforts'.

Anybody else notice this trend as well?
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korkin




Posts: 495

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 17:32    Post subject:
Not me
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NuclearShadow
Banned



Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 17:33    Post subject:
Amen I've been saying this for years now and sadly every one that passes it gets worse and worse.
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Karmeck




Posts: 3341
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 17:51    Post subject:
You are getting old, just like back in the day then ppl were against rock n role and Elvis. You dont understand if you don't want to. IT's part of human nature not to like what you cant understand then you are older, young ppl are more open.


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korkin




Posts: 495

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:16    Post subject:
I don't feel like games are getting worse... I gave it some thought and came to the conclusion that it's due to me not playing every single game that comes out but only select ones that seem to interest me.

I remember playing Hitman 1 and I feel that the latest installment in that series is much better. Generally I feel games improve with each iteration. Also I feel like there are many new intellectual properties coming out that are fresh like Mirror's edge. Speaking of IP's and old IP's that are dug out from the grave I think the prince of persia series did quite well on improving itself.

Last but not least argument; let's compare games from the gaming crash of 83 to today's games. ET vs any fucking game that you can buy in a store.

In conclusion, bad games existed since the days of Pong and will continue to exist in the future when crysis will run on your cellphone and kids will hide their holoporn under their bed mattress.
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Surray




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Location: Europe
PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:23    Post subject:
Growing market + more complex graphics = higher production cost = fewer devs/publishers willing to take risks = more mainstream games = more dumbed down games = more of the same = seemingly lower quality games


Likot Mosuskekim, Woodcutter cancels Sleep: Interrupted by Elephant.
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GeorgeIvanovich




Posts: 361

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:26    Post subject:
Karmeck wrote:
You are getting old, just like back in the day then ppl were against rock n role and Elvis. You dont understand if you don't want to. IT's part of human nature not to like what you cant understand then you are older, young ppl are more open.



No, young ppl are more easy to get fuked...and they even like it Laughing
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Flowmo




Posts: 627

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:28    Post subject:
Look, there's 3 parties involved in games.

- The developers
- The publishers
- The players

Developers do what they are supposed to do. Brainstorm, select ideas, work em out, make it playable, release it. To release it, developers need publishers. Publishers then say "ok, we'll publish it and give you a bonus if you finish it before x date" where "date" is a completely unrealistic timeframe to finish it. A lot of "smaller" developers might be extremely interested in this bonus. Bigger developers (like Rockstar, Valve and 3DRealms) don't give a fuck and say "yeah stfu, you'll release it when it's finished".

Other smaller developers might think to themselves "hmm neat bonus, what can we scrap from the game to try and reach that deadline?" Eventually, features get scrapped, simplified (or "streamlined"...) and then there's about 1/3 of the original idea left which results in a crappy game.

Then the players get to play it and say "meh, this sux, it's too simple" and go pirating or something.

Point of story:
Developers mostly *WANT* to release badass games, but don't get the time to work out their ideas cuz they are being pushed by the publishers. Less players buy the game -> Less money -> Smaller budget for the next game -> Even more crap games.

Seems like it's a viscious circle where publishers ruin it in some stage of the development... Sad


"YARR! We be stealin' yer games an plundrin' yer gold!" sez the pirate.
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AKofC




Posts: 4359

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:29    Post subject:
It doesn't have anything to do with age as anyone of any demographic should be able to see this trend. One of my issues with it is how games these days want to hold the players hand. I have no issue with most games from Europe which do not treat the player as a child.

Holding the players hand can be anything from an arrow telling you where to go, to simplification of core elements in a game to cater to a wider audience.

While this does increase your audience, it doesn't necessarily mean its a good move with regards to game play.


Also the existence of bad games have nothing to do with this topic. While dumbing down games are bad, it doesn't really mean that these games are automatically bad. They just aren't as good as they could be with a bit more effort from the developers. That is my issue with all this.

As NuclearShadow has mentioned, every year games seem to be getting simpler and simpler. Innovation goes out the window and everything follows a tested formula. I'm afraid that a time will come when the audience developers are now catering to will find upcoming games to be too dumbed down.

How will the gaming industry escape from that stagnation?


Gustave the Steel
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Raap




Posts: 956

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:30    Post subject:
Surray wrote:
Growing market + more complex graphics = higher production cost = fewer devs/publishers willing to take risks = more mainstream games = more dumbed down games = more of the same = seemingly lower quality games


Yah, basically what Surray says. It's not game designers that decides what games to make anymore, it's the marketing departments. And graphics and such now cost so much to bring up to the 'standards' that less resources are available for gameplay. The gaming industry is the new movie industry.

The Golden Era of Gaming only lasted for about 10 years though, ending somewhere around 1999-2001'ish.
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xyzg




Posts: 1835

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:37    Post subject:
I don't think Developers are choosing to make half-baked games, more a case of economics and time restraints then game makers lacking the passion to make a better game.
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AKofC




Posts: 4359

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:38    Post subject:
Yes, developers must cater to the mainstream market, which is why this topic addresses the sad truth that a majority of gamers seem to not mind the sub par games being released today.

So really, what is it with gamers these days?


Gustave the Steel
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Raap




Posts: 956

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:49    Post subject:
The problem with gamers these days, is that everyone's a gamer these days. Back in the 90's it really was more of a 'nerd' thing. So when everyone's a gamer, but since the majority of them aren't nerds, developers need to make casual and easy games to appeal to people that don't necessarily spend most their time playing games.
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FireMaster




Posts: 13396
Location: I do not belong
PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:58    Post subject:
Raap wrote:
The problem with gamers these days, is that everyone's a gamer these days. Back in the 90's it really was more of a 'nerd' thing. So when everyone's a gamer, but since the majority of them aren't nerds, developers need to make casual and easy games to appeal to people that don't necessarily spend most their time playing games.


as in dumbing down games dramaticaly to have a bigger audience which results in $$$$$
it's all a business after all not leonardo davinci
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AKofC




Posts: 4359

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 18:59    Post subject:
A nerd thing? I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone born in the 80's, regardless of social label, has played games on the NES right?

However your point regarding the casual gamer is valid. I however don't see why developers must hold their hand all the way through the game. Give them a bit of a challenge. That's not to say you dump them straight into game with no idea what to do. Give them a bit of an introduction to your game, and then gradually increase the difficulty or something.

It's because of the casual gamer that games are now becoming more like movies. In a bad way.


Gustave the Steel
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xyzg




Posts: 1835

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:01    Post subject:
AKofC wrote:
Yes, developers must cater to the mainstream market, which is why this topic addresses the sad truth that a majority of gamers seem to not mind the sub par games being released today.

So really, what is it with gamers these days?


Maybe because the new generation of gamers don't know any better perhaps. Older gamers have the experience of what has come and past before and perhaps have higher expectations?. Truth is even back in the day there were still loads of sub par games released back then too. I don't mind sub par games being released I just choose not to buy them thats all.
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AKofC




Posts: 4359

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:02    Post subject:
Again, I know that it's all about business and raking in the dollars and I'm not faulting developers, or even the sinister publishers for that.

The problem as I've mentioned is with the casual gamer treating games as interactive movies and not games.

While games with an interactive story are generally a good idea, I don't want the game play to suffer because of it.


Gustave the Steel
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AKofC




Posts: 4359

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:04    Post subject:
I'm saddened that that could very well be the case xyzg.

Someone should bring up an old classic to par visually with the current generation, since visuals are the first thing casual gamers seem to go for. Maybe then casual gamers can see what they've missed.


Gustave the Steel
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NuclearShadow
Banned



Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:14    Post subject:
korkin wrote:
I remember playing Hitman 1 and I feel that the latest installment in that series is much better.


I'll agree that Hitman 1 had its share of problems but Bloodmoney made it into a game that stealth isn't even required. You can literally just shoot everyone to death with ease. The other Hitman's this is basically impossible as not only were you not a one man army but in some maps the target would escape if they know they are in danger. The game would have been perfect if they didn't let players go Rambo.


Also as far as bad games came in the past this is true there were bad games. But how many developers from those do you see still alive and kicking? Not much thats for sure. Releasing a bad game in the past lead to bad sales which lead to bankruptcy. Nowadays people just buy the shit anyways and then continue to buy from the same developers who continue the process. It really is a case of games getting worse and its largely do to people believing hype and being graphics whores. Developers are basically thinking why should they make a awesome game that could take years to make when they can throw together something pretty looking and make the millions of dollars right now.


Last edited by NuclearShadow on Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:24; edited 1 time in total
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FireMaster




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Location: I do not belong
PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:15    Post subject:
Visuals and graphics take 90% of the work and space hence the pretty eye candy but 5 hours gameplay
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oxyeL




Posts: 7152

PostPosted: Tue, 19th Aug 2008 19:19    Post subject:
NuclearShadow wrote:
korkin wrote:
I remember playing Hitman 1 and I feel that the latest installment in that series is much better.


I'll agree that Hitman 1 had its share of problems but Bloodmoney made it into a game that stealth isn't even required. You can literally just shoot everyone to death with ease. The other Hitman's this is basically impossible as not only were you not a one man army but in some maps the target would escape if they know they are in danger.

The game would have been perfect if they didn't let players go Rambo.

Still it gave you the proper motivation to finish all missions on Silent assassin, the fact that you can doesn't mean that you should .
Besides it was superfun to kill everyone on the map and pile all the corpses in one place. Twisted Evil
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Phluxed
VIP Member



Posts: 4911
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 00:48    Post subject:
I don't pay for games unless they meet my standards (or they're an mmorpg).


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Sin317
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Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 10:25    Post subject:
i'm kinda waiting for sabin to jump all over you ^^ (OT)
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Panzer86




Posts: 57

PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 10:30    Post subject:
It all started to turn to shite after the Xbox was released and at the end of its lifespann when Xbox 360 was announced.
And this whole retarded platform war started, and the publishers/devs saw how much they could earn on it.

That was when i started to see a decline in games for the PC atleast, more and more console ports started to show up, and the PC exclusives got less & less.
Now im not saying i hate console games or anything, but consoles have always been a bit on the lighter side.
What i mean by that is "mainstream" and not so "complex", sure there are exceptions but overall this is how it looks like and always have.
As i turned older i wanted more mature games, so thats why i changed to the PC, cause thats what most of the games was made for.

The PC has always had more deep and advanced games, but now when 80% is ported over from the consoles you are lucky if you see 1 title like that per year.

But i have hope, they PC is always a step ahead of the consoles, and the PS3 & Xbox360 are getting older and soon the PC will be large steps ahead of them again.
I figure a lot of the console fanboy graphicwhores will get interested in PC gaming sooner or later when they see 1337 haxxor graphics.
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Joutilas




Posts: 77

PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 12:13    Post subject:
Large part of the issue comes from the fact that everybody is after the big bucks. If you make a game, it needs to have the budget of a hollywood production and the revenue one as well.

Games don't necessarily need to have millions of dollars invested into them, or have developer teams of hundreds of people - look at Spiderweb Software's games or Mount & Blade as an example!

The problem is that there isn't really any middle ground: either you are a tiny indie dev with no marketing or publishers, or then you are a part of a major multinational corporation. When a small dev makes a succesful game, they are bought by a bigger corporation. And their next production is totally different from what they used to do in the past.

This is all just a symptom of a bigger issue in our societies today, where just "making a living" isn't enough - you need to earn like a rockstar... But that's a totally different discussion.
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FireMaster




Posts: 13396
Location: I do not belong
PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 12:24    Post subject:
Xbox is by far the cause of PC fall down , microsoft doing whatever they can to promote their console and of course they succeeded
but have no fear these days are over we see each day a title announced for the PC or ported to the PC
latest PCGA reports says the overcome of PC gaming industry is 10,5 billion dollars , most of the profitable games are online multiplayer ones and also as I said lots of titles are being announced so 2009 is gonna be an awesome year for us PC gamers

PC on the rise again , hell yeah Cool
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Submiqent




Posts: 1213

PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 15:32    Post subject:
Ah this thread is so bullshit. You guys just don't remember the shit games from back in the day, you only remember the good stuff. I can guarantee you there's as much shit percentage wise nowadays as there used to be. How about trying to list all the shit games you remember from 10-20years ago. Same amount as today, these new ones hurt more cause you're pinin' for super mario or final fantasy 3 or whatever.

Karmeck's right, just gettin old.


(imo Razz)
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FireMaster




Posts: 13396
Location: I do not belong
PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 15:40    Post subject:
it's not matter of getting old or nostalgia I can name many uber crap old games on the old platforms and PC ( just take a look at AVGN lol )

it's just that a lot more now are in business and consoles are a big deal when it comes to profit , nonetheless PC is being resurected by many titles this fall and next year don't worry
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Raap




Posts: 956

PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 15:50    Post subject:
Submiqent wrote:
Ah this thread is so bullshit. You guys just don't remember the shit games from back in the day, you only remember the good stuff. I can guarantee you there's as much shit percentage wise nowadays as there used to be. How about trying to list all the shit games you remember from 10-20years ago. Same amount as today, these new ones hurt more cause you're pinin' for super mario or final fantasy 3 or whatever.


Huh? Just about everything is shit nowadays. And I could list for hours the great games from 1990-2001'ish, while I would probably only need one hand to list the great games from 2001-2008.
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korkin




Posts: 495

PostPosted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008 16:13    Post subject:
Raap wrote:
Submiqent wrote:
Ah this thread is so bullshit. You guys just don't remember the shit games from back in the day, you only remember the good stuff. I can guarantee you there's as much shit percentage wise nowadays as there used to be. How about trying to list all the shit games you remember from 10-20years ago. Same amount as today, these new ones hurt more cause you're pinin' for super mario or final fantasy 3 or whatever.


Huh? Just about everything is shit nowadays. And I could list for hours the great games from 1990-2001'ish, while I would probably only need one hand to list the great games from 2001-2008.


Ha, sucks to be you. I. for one, couldn't count the games I enjoyed from 2001-2008 on one hand or even 10.
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