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-=Cartoon=-
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 Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 01:31 Post subject: Would you support a gov invading another country ??? |
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If it was for humanitarian reasons ???
I would and do imho.. i see it as the same as if you see a girl getting raped.. im not gonna stand back and say "Its not my business" .. i realise its not a 1:1 comparision.. but you get my drift.
We dont have much of a "test" for this.. because almost all wars and for ideological or economic reasons... or revenge..
Last time i can think was 1992 in somalia.. and the usa had ZERO will to fight that war for humanitarian reasons... since a "massive" 43 americans died..... compared to more than 4000 in iraqi.. and that had fuck all to do with huamnitarian reasons.
I know our gov (Along with Australia) has done this with zero economic gain (infact it ended up costing alot).. and was for pure humanitarian reasons...and was seen as popular because it was "Doing the right thing"
So what are your thoughts ??
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 01:43 Post subject: |
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No.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 01:47 Post subject: |
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no, ask yourself if you would go there and risk your life for something that doesnt affect you in the slightest? no ? then dont ask your military either.
not to mention , there are country borders for a reason , if everyone respected those we would have alot more peaceful world.
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-=Cartoon=-
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 03:00 Post subject: |
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| Stefan F wrote: | | no, ask yourself if you would go there and risk your life for something that doesnt affect you in the slightest? no ? then dont ask your military either.. |
So if you saw a girl getting raped.. the guy had the knife.. would you leave it because "It doesnt effect you in the slightest?"
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 03:22 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | | Stefan F wrote: | | no, ask yourself if you would go there and risk your life for something that doesnt affect you in the slightest? no ? then dont ask your military either.. |
So if you saw a girl getting raped.. the guy had the knife.. would you leave it because "It doesnt effect you in the slightest?" |
that is the most bullshit fucking excuse for war I've ever read in a post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument
you're refuting the position that those who oppose the war somehow accept the status quo in these hellholes.
what if you saved that girl from being raped by dropping a bomb on her while killing her entire family? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 03:51 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | | Stefan F wrote: | | no, ask yourself if you would go there and risk your life for something that doesnt affect you in the slightest? no ? then dont ask your military either.. |
So if you saw a girl getting raped.. the guy had the knife.. would you leave it because "It doesnt effect you in the slightest?" |
We are talking about >starting< a war, and a war never solved anything.
So my answer is still no, ill fix whatever problem that excists in my own country, whatever happens outside of that is not my problem, that doesnt mean i dont feel sorry for them, if they need blankets , help with maintaining farms or whatever , ill gladly help.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 04:07 Post subject: |
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| Stefan F wrote: | | not to mention , there are country borders for a reason , if everyone respected those we would have alot more peaceful world. |
So you're telling me genocide in Sudan for example isn't your problem? Basically you're totally cool with hundreds and thousands of people, women, children, getting slaughtered because it ain't happening in your country?
Maybe it's because I'm german and therefore I tend to feel like I have a moral obligation to stuff like that. Just imagine, the Nazi didn't seek a hegemony and nobody would have cared for them genociding jews. What a super happy fun place the earth would be!
Wait, that totally sounded wrong O.o
There are a few things I'd fight for. For some of those I'd even die but that's just 2 or 3.
But soldiers get paid for that. Plus I'm sure that in most countries soldiers aren't drafted against their will.
| Stefan F wrote: | | no, ask yourself if you would go there and risk your life for something that doesnt affect you in the slightest? no ? then dont ask your military either. |
So, because something doesn't affect me directly, does that mean I am supposed to not care?
China kicking human rights and poking a stick in it's eye? Hell, why should I care.
Genocides in Africa? They'll stop... eventually... I suppose.
Just what I could think of of the top of my head.
And I stand to say that a war actually solved something.
A war solved our (Germany's that is) problem with a little austrian guy who didn't like jews a whole lot.
War's are brutal, ugly and deadly and they spread nothing but pain, destruction and sadness _but_ did you never do something that you normally wouldn't have done but had to do because it was the right thing? Same thing should go with wars. Instead all the reasons to fight a war are oil and money.
(Excluding Yugoslavia and Afghanistan here because they were/are somehow based on morals)
Believe me when I tell you that I am actually a pacifist or at least I ain't picking fights when I can avoid them, so I ain't a warmonger.
Whatever, been writing too much here. Tried to make my point, don't know if I succeeded that's for you to decide. 
btw. since writing this took a while you may keep any grammar or spelling errors you might come across
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 04:16 Post subject: |
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i lived in Germany for 14 years and i am 50% German , trust me i know the whole feel obligated thing , to quote myself to answer your long post
| Quote: | | that doesnt mean i dont feel sorry for them |
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 04:26 Post subject: |
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And I'll quote myself to get this post started:
| Quote: | | So you're telling me genocide in Sudan for example isn't your problem? Basically you're totally cool with hundreds and thousands of people, women, children, getting slaughtered because it ain't happening in your country? |
Let me imagine that...
"Please you have to help us! Our folks are getting slaughtered!" - "What? Here, have a blanket and don't bother me anymore." - "Oh thank you! Now we have something to cover all those mass graves!"
Yep, the pure thought of feeling sorry for somebody makes the whole difference, I see where I was wrong
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 04:35 Post subject: |
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| Reklis wrote: | And I stand to say that a war actually solved something.
A war solved our (Germany's that is) problem with a little austrian guy who didn't like jews a whole lot.
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WW2 was about hitler invading the rest of europe, not about him killing jews. would the allies have made a full miltary assault against germany if he was "only" doing his genocide thing? well, we'll never know.
i'll be joining doctors without borders next year, but i'll NEVER EVER fire even a single bullet against ppl in another country as long as my own life (or the life of someone near me) doesn't depend on it.
problems aren't solved by killing people, period.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 04:55 Post subject: |
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why dont you take a plane and do whatever you think would help in sudan?
Ill repeat it again, war never solved anything , if you bring up WW2 or whatever other war , you gotta say the line "war never solved anything" to the one who started it.
Ill give you the afghanistan example , "we" are there to help which is a lie in the first place, we never cared about afghanistan, now we only help them so we keep most of them as friends , to protect them from the evil taliban, NATO last year killed 1800 civilians , this year they already killed more civilians than the taliban, and it doesnt matter if its done on purpose, on accident, or being reckless, dead is dead.
If it was so easy to simply drop bombs on the bad guys to solve the problem then you might have a point, but look at the past decades, alot of civilians die cause of us, our own soldiers die, and its impossible to root out every single bad guy.
Second example Iraq, we can only guess the amount of ppl that died in this conflict, even the official numbers are in the 6 digits, this isnt about saddam being good or bad, but were all those dead civilians worth it? not to me , saddam killed ppl too, but at least the blood was on his hands and not the US gov. Ask any iraqy how his 'freedom' feels like after he lost his home, most of his family, his job, and still has to fear his own life on a daily basis.
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2009 03:26 am Post subject:
And I'll quote myself to get this post started:
Quote:
So you're telling me genocide in Sudan for example isn't your problem? Basically you're totally cool with hundreds and thousands of people, women, children, getting slaughtered because it ain't happening in your country?
| Quote: | Let me imagine that...
"Please you have to help us! Our folks are getting slaughtered!" - "What? Here, have a blanket and don't bother me anymore." - "Oh thank you! Now we have something to cover all those mass graves!"
Yep, the pure thought of feeling sorry for somebody makes the whole difference, I see where I was wrong |
I gave the blanket example as a way of helping that didnt involve killing even more people, you cant be a pacifist by still having excuses to >start< a war.
No where state they cant bother me after the blanket, you assume too much.
In the end it doesnt matter if we feel sorry or not, both of us will be able to sleep well tonight, and laugh about random stuff tomorrow, so dont act like im some horrible person.
I suggest you join the red cross and go to sudan yourself, my responsibility is my own family, when they are ok i do my best around the neighbourhood, and if everyone thinks like that, the world would be a better place.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 04:55 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | problems aren't solved by killing people, period. |
This.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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HubU
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 05:33 Post subject: |
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As long as they invade Poland, I'm pretty ok with that.
"Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life." ~Berthold Auerbach
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-=Cartoon=-
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 06:51 Post subject: |
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Przepraszam
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 07:09 Post subject: |
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| HubU wrote: | | As long as they invade Poland, I'm pretty ok with that. |
noooooooooooo! my dreams are crushed with one post  |
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Frant
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 09:26 Post subject: |
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A government should never take it upon itself to deal morality on other sovereign nations. That's why UN was formed in the first place. Unfortunately UN has become a joke these days, doing nothing but passing ridiculous resolutions that nobody gives a crap about.
Dismantle UN (you can't really save it at this point) and create a global task force where basic human rights is one of the few creeds governing it. And when they intervene, it's with surgical precision, not an invasion of a nation. And the reasons must be pretty damn dire to warrant an intervention in the first place. Look at Darfur! Where were UN, US etc. when thousands and thousands of Africans were slayed by the janjawid militia by orders of the arab leaders? Nowhere. Instead US went to Iraq which was a fairly stable country (on suicide bombers or wars between different islamist sects) with very little unrest among the population.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 12:53 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | A government should never take it upon itself to deal morality on other sovereign nations. That's why UN was formed in the first place. Unfortunately UN has become a joke these days, doing nothing but passing ridiculous resolutions that nobody gives a crap about.
Dismantle UN (you can't really save it at this point) and create a global task force where basic human rights is one of the few creeds governing it. And when they intervene, it's with surgical precision, not an invasion of a nation. And the reasons must be pretty damn dire to warrant an intervention in the first place. Look at Darfur! Where were UN, US etc. when thousands and thousands of Africans were slayed by the janjawid militia by orders of the arab leaders? Nowhere. Instead US went to Iraq which was a fairly stable country (on suicide bombers or wars between different islamist sects) with very little unrest among the population. |
Somehow you stated the point I was trying to make with far better eloquence 
| HubU wrote: | | As long as they invade Poland, I'm pretty ok with that. |
I remember Germany did that, didn't work too well ;D
| Stefan F wrote: | | Text that is too long to quote |
First, I'm not trying to make you look like a horrible person. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and that's a good thing (most of the time).
Second, the way invasions normally go are totally inappropriate and over the top:
"Come on, let's bomb this place until nothing hostile moves... or nothing at all for that matter."
Stupid. Plain and simple.
That the americans pretty much failed in their "liberation" if Iraq, that's something we don't have to debate on, I think most people agree with that.
The problem they face, and the militaries in Afghanistan face is that modern warfare isn't two militaries against each other head on, it's a full paid (moderatly) well equipped military force against guerrillas who, these days, aren't afraid of bombing themselves away. And that is something the military forces of the world have no idea how to deal with.
| FireMaster wrote: | | current wars are not for good inentions nor "applying democracy" it's for controlling resources and massive profit, massively sugar coated of course |
What he said.
Thinking about it, the last war that was even remotely because of good intentions was the war in Kosovo.
The Serbs started genociding the Albanias, the NATO went in there... and kinda fucked shit up, but anyway. That's a war that wasn't fought for profit.
Wars are useless, yes.
Killing never solved anything, yes.
But idly standing by as thousands of people get slaughtered never solved anything as well.
Problem is, places like Darfur, you can't solve that peacefully with diplomacy because the militias don't give a damn about diplomacy, UN sanctions and what not.
Show me a way to resolve that non-violently I'm all for it but how are you supposed to get someone stop fighting that doesn't listen to you at all?
But as there is no profit to gain in that region, we'll watch that a little bit longer I suppose.
Again, far longer than I wanted, whatever.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 13:04 Post subject: |
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No. As stated before war is not the solution to any problem. You have my country as a model. Yes we are ''free'' now but in fact we are a broken country. I don't know what would have happen if someone choose to help us. Maybe things would be better, but who knows (and look @ Bosnia, they had help and they're still knee deep in shit)?
I realized that if you worry too much about things that doesn't involve you you'll have headache and you'll probably have sleeping disorder  . I'm not saying that it's good that people are getting killed in Sudan, Iraq or where ever, but I'll try to live my life as best as I can...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 15:13 Post subject: |
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I read somewhere in here that someone said "Wars never solved antything". That is simply not true. What if the US didn't invade NK, and they had nuclear weapons? Everyone knows how unstable NK is, and if they had nuclear weapons, they would probably start another war. The second world war also stopped the Nazi regime.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 15:19 Post subject: |
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| HubU wrote: | | As long as they invade Poland, I'm pretty ok with that. |
if they invade Poland that would mean more polish bastards spreading everywhere. As if here aint enough as it is
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 16:13 Post subject: Re: Would you support a gov invading another country ??? |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | If it was for humanitarian reasons ???
I would |
your gov succeded in another brainwasher, congrats
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Frant
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deelix
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 19:09 Post subject: |
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I would have to say no because in the end I think a war would just place more hardship on the people you were trying to protect. It is kinda like one country playing moral police to the other. plus in the end if one country did overthrow another they would just place their own people in charge and corruption would just happen again.
I don't think you can really compare an invasion and rape of a women on the street, except that rape is often used as a tool of war.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Apr 2009 19:20 Post subject: Re: Would you support a gov invading another country ??? |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | If it was for humanitarian reasons ???
I would and do imho.. i see it as the same as if you see a girl getting raped.. im not gonna stand back and say "Its not my business" .. i realise its not a 1:1 comparision.. but you get my drift.
We dont have much of a "test" for this.. because almost all wars and for ideological or economic reasons... or revenge..
Last time i can think was 1992 in somalia.. and the usa had ZERO will to fight that war for humanitarian reasons... since a "massive" 43 americans died..... compared to more than 4000 in iraqi.. and that had fuck all to do with huamnitarian reasons.
I know our gov (Along with Australia) has done this with zero economic gain (infact it ended up costing alot).. and was for pure humanitarian reasons...and was seen as popular because it was "Doing the right thing"
So what are your thoughts ?? |
While doing it for humanitarian reasons it sounds nice and certainly could have pure intentions but simply can bring pure hell to the people. The problem is that even if we overthrow whomever is oppressing the people we will leave the people will a more damaged then before country. The only real solution would to be to stay there and hold their hand for a very long time. We would have to offer security , education , food, and more. While also trying to teach these people to be independent themselves. Then when we finally do let of their hand they could very easily still end up in the same scenario we got them out of.
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-=Cartoon=-
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-=Cartoon=-
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Location: South Pacific Ocean
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