While up at BioWare's headquarters in Edmonton, I had the opportunity to throw some questions at company co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk. I was curious about how the duo felt about the current RPG landscape in general, and why we're seeing more and more western-style RPGs while JRPGs have, at least among North American audiences, fallen somewhat to the wayside.
"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience.
"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."
Zeschuk admits that there are definitely exceptions coming from the East (Demon's Souls is currently one of his favorite games), but North American definitions of role-playing have simply evolved beyond those of their counterparts on the other side of the world. "We have big debates on whether GTA is an RPG, for example. It's got all the elements, it just doesn't have the numbers. And what gamers here want is that higher depth, that higher integration of features...Mass Effect 2 is in some ways a continuation of that evolution."
I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Zeschuk, but I no longer have any patience for JRPGs whatsoever (Half-Minute Hero notwithstanding, obviously). I'm curious to see what JRPG fans think of Zeschuk's stance, though. Do JRPGs really suffer from a lack of evolution?
Now I'm not really a fan of JRPGs, and I love Bioware games, but even so... Does he really think thier games feature that much evolution? I mean, their games have the same buildup and story through the generations, and all that really changes is the wrapping. Basic Bioware formula: "epic intro, you are the only one who can save the world, but you'll have to hurry as some horde is coming... except you have the time to do all these sidequests/explore these planets". I mean, c'mon: NWN, KOTORs, Mass effect, Dragon Age: One intro/tutorial sequence + 4 main quest planets/places + ending. Same good old structure all the way. Heck, even the stories are all the same, just with different background. In KOTOR, we were Jedi, Dragon Age "Gray" Wardens, Mass Effect "SPECTREs", Jade Empire some special water... monk or something...
I really don't want to rip on these games, as I love all of them. It's just that his claims - even though completely true - are just as true for their own games. Bioware just learned to dress them up as if they were completely new and innovative.
The fact is, IMO most modern "western" type RPGs are just as shitty as JRPGs, with some exceptions, like Bioware's products, and the witcher for example. But if I had to choose between dragon age and the wicher in regards to the amount of gaming evolution, it wouldn't really be a hard choice for me.
I am a huge fan of JrPG's and it annoys the tits of me when they fucking change, its always for the worse.
*Awaits some FFXII Fan to tell me how it was better than FFX etc....*
Jrpgs do turn based fighting better than anyone, the battle system used in mass effect was shite (game was ok but I thought it was highly overrated (KOTOR was superb though)
ragnarus wrote:
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ?
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
Bioware is right, but so is DrHobo's comment. Their games haven't really evolved much and if so, some of that eveolution actually goes backwards. Before Dragon Age their games were just becoming more and more cinematic, and more and more simplified at the same time. And shorter, with each new title. Mass Effect was a crowning example of that and the trend will probably continue, aside from some Dragon Age sequels, hopefully. Sad, really, because i could trade whole ME trilogy for another, single game of Dragon Age's scale.
Funny thing, in this context, is that their best game in years is one that goes back to the roots, instead of "evolving" further.
Last edited by Aquma on Sun, 3rd Jan 2010 11:22; edited 1 time in total
I'd have to say that both JRPGs and western RPGs has gone really downhill the last few years. I used to love JRPGs and while I still it's difficult to find games that are enjoyable. So far I've been able to play one JRPG on current gen consoles that i really enjoyed and played all the way trough and that game was Tales of Vesperia. Personally I believe a lot of the decline to be the more linear game play along with the removal of the classic world map then again those two kinda go hand in hand i guess.
But more importantly I haven't found many western RPGs either to be very good. Yes i did enjoy playing trough dragon age but overall the game felt kinda simple, short and with a weird combat balance. I personally believe they both need to go back to their roots and take a good look at what made older games so successful.
jap rpgs suck ass. japs can come up with some great art design and their production values are usually quite good, and they can come up with great story concepts, but when it comes to games, jesus fuck, they cant tell them for SHIT.
gameplay might be ok in some of them, but their characters are always so insanely fucking unlikable cunts, and the writing/dialog is always terrible.
love their anime, love their movies, but their games are fucking terrible.
Loved Jrpgs in the psx days, now frankly I find them tiresome... slow-paced combat and long-winded dialogs make me want to quit and play Serious Sam instead...
Then again you may argue "western" rpgs aren't much better... combat is more fun, but story/characters are usually very generic and uninventive. A matter of taste I guess...
I love bioware games tbh but i think they could be better on some story arcs... Feels like there is always a special position for u, in mass effect its the specter and in dragon age its the wardens, mostly the same thing. Think that started in NWN if i am not mistaken with the "nine" or something... dont remember. Anyways they are activly developing their gamestyles, the new import saves from Mass effect 1 to mass effect 2 etc.
So in that regard Bioware is more activly developing their games then the JRPG companies at making changes, imo.
I dont really play alot of JRPG games. Find their story arcs quite strange at times and not to mention most of the casts in those games are compromised of "kids". Tried a few but didnt really appeal to me...
Anyways i heard square enix is working on a new combat system for their new games if i am not mistaken. Think they make those JRPG hehe. So seems they are picking it up.
mhhmmm cant wait for ME2 at the end of this month....
whats a good example of a JPRG, wonder if i ever enjoyed any lulz.
The Last Remnant, Final Fantasy, 29037432986 titles on anything sony related.
In a nutshell, some weird fantasy like theme usually, eyes the size of baseballs, 30 foot long swords, you get the picture.
...badly written with horrible unlikable characters...
i couldnt even get to the first city in last remnant because all the characters id met in the opening were such unlikeable fucks that i just couldnt summon up the interest to restart the game after closing it. i might try again some day.. maybe..
SaGa Frontier 2. My favorite JRPG. The epic tale, spanning over 80 years, concerning a man and his egg.
JRPGs are more about telling a story. Unfortunately, these days, the story is utter shit. The characters are unmanly men with very weird tastes in clothes.
"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience.
"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."
Only way this statement could be accurate would be if it was said by someone from CD Projekt Red about both JRPGs and BiowareRPGs.
jap rpgs suck ass. japs can come up with some great art design and their production values are usually quite good, and they can come up with great story concepts, but when it comes to games, jesus fuck, they cant tell them for SHIT.
gameplay might be ok in some of them, but their characters are always so insanely fucking unlikable cunts, and the writing/dialog is always terrible.
love their anime, love their movies, but their games are fucking terrible.
play various games before making such a stupid comment lol
whats a good example of a JPRG, wonder if i ever enjoyed any lulz.
The Last Remnant, Final Fantasy, 29037432986 titles on anything sony related.
In a nutshell, some weird fantasy like theme usually, eyes the size of baseballs, 30 foot long swords, you get the picture.
...badly written with horrible unlikable characters...
i couldnt even get to the first city in last remnant because all the characters id met in the opening were such unlikeable fucks that i just couldnt summon up the interest to restart the game after closing it. i might try again some day.. maybe..
Actually, I started it, hoping and convincing myself that it will get better. Unfortunately, the gameplay turned out to be repetitive as fuck, with zero tactical or strategic depth due to the characters' seemingly random (!!!) choice of attack/action skills on your order, and nonexistent character development...
The interesting and unique story that's supposed to be a selling point of JRPGs was nowhere to be found either... And as you mentioned, characters were bland, and annoying as hell. Shame, as I liked the overall atmosphere of the world they created.
fawe4 wrote:
Only way this statement could be accurate would be if it was said by someone from CD Projekt Red about both JRPGs and BiowareRPGs.
My thoughts exactly. But as someone said, Bioware RPGs not changing/evolving is not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, if you have a recipe for a good game, why change it. But then, don't make comments that blame the failure of the RPGs an entire region on the lack of evolution.
last remnant was pretty shitty, if you want to find a good jrpg you have to look through the shit storm (get final fantasy 6 for the snes or is it a case of HO HO IM TOO ADVANCED TO PLAY SPRITE BASED GAMES)
it's also the same for WRPG games... you have to search through the same shit storm which was actually produced by bioware in order to find the odd semi decent game which in this case would be KOTOR, everything after that is bioware repeating and trying to recreate although they fail each time
square actually moved forward, it turned shitty when they merged with enix though. I will always prefer jrpgs probably cause I was raised playing them for the snes, my best moments of gaming sit with jrpgs and quite frankly they're fucking fantastic if you find the right ones. i'm tired of bland WRPGS that repeat the exact same bullshit over and over, you don't need to bring new stuff to the table everytime but you could atleast attempt to change the game around rather than make it the exact same ie mass effect/dragon age
Hey kids
listen to this man, he really speaks my mind better than anyone else
This guy summarized my thoughts far better than I could ever have hoped to.
Dead on on every point - especially the feminine male characters (what the fuck is up with that, seriously?) and 90 minute cut scenes (last jap game I played was MGS 4 and that had the same problem - 90% cutscenes, 10% gameplay - bleh).
I can never be free, because the shackles I wear can't be touched or be seen.
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