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 Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:38 Post subject: How far would you go to save PC gaming? |
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The title is misleading, for sure, but my original one was too long. More realistically, here's my question.
Most people on these boards speak about the grand old days of Deus Ex, Q3, UT or Age2:AOK with love and nostalgia. They also speak about how we are left to rot by the big companies, as they create the next gears of wars or what have you cookie cutter simple couchbox game.
At the same time, many praise the indie developers, and hope they will be the ones to satisfy the hardcore needs of nostalgic gamers.
The question is coming soon enough.
So, me and 3 of my mates and two artist started working on our indie game two months ago. We plan a release about a year from now. We use the unreal 3 engine, and are making a top down real time tactical RPG futuristic urban warfare game. Accent is on multiplayer. We all work as software developers by day.
I posted question on many forums, on how people would react to such a product, and to my sad realization, very many "hardcore", nostalgic PC gamers said we should release it for free, and see where we can go from there. Our estimated costs up until shipping (marketing included, but projected royalty costs for the engine not included) are 130-150 thousand euros.
And here comes the question: what would YOU do, to support indie games? Do you think they should be sold for 5-15$ (even though content wise they equal a modern game, only the production values are lower), or do you put your money where your mouth is, and pay 40-ish $ for a game that is challenging, but doesn't look/animate so hot?
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I payed 26 euros for MnB:Warband, and 200 hours later, it is the best purchase I made this year.
What do you think?
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:47 Post subject: |
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I support a lot of indie developers and generally try to buy their games as much as possible. I honestly couldn't comment definitively on price, as they're always different, but $30 is generally what I pay for an indie title once I've played it and realised I enjoyed it, so wanted to support the developer.
Games like Zeno Clash, Evochron, Fate, Torchlight, Alien Shooter... etc etc... I've purchased on day of releas and still play today - because regardless of graphics, they're amazing games that suck you in and keep you playing. As for your game idea? I love the sound of it, though the MP-centric part gives me pause for concern and would most likely result in my ignoring it :\ I mean no offence to you whatsoever, I'm just not a MP-oriented gamer.
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:52 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | I support a lot of indie developers and generally try to buy their games as much as possible. I honestly couldn't comment definitively on price, as they're always different, but $30 is generally what I pay for an indie title once I've played it and realised I enjoyed it, so wanted to support the developer.
Games like Zeno Clash, Evochron, Fate, Torchlight, Alien Shooter... etc etc... I've purchased on day of releas and still play today - because regardless of graphics, they're amazing games that suck you in and keep you playing. As for your game idea? I love the sound of it, though the MP-centric part gives me pause for concern and would most likely result in my ignoring it :\ I mean no offence to you whatsoever, I'm just not a MP-oriented gamer. |
Here's the reality of it: creating SP content, once the game play is down and ready is the hardest part. But I am a realist. SP content takes money. Loads more than what I have gathered. Once game play is done, we reach a go/no-go point. Around september (until then we only use UE3 default assets, our own will come in to play only if we decide it's good enough to go forward).
MP is different than what you think. I am not ready to divulge information yet, but it's not direct confrontation. It will require much, MUCH thought over APM.
EDIT: forgot to finish my first paragraph.
I will apply for EU SME (small/medium enterprises) grants. I have done this before and won, although not the amount I want now. If we decide the gameplay is solid enough, we apply, and IF we win (around 40% with my skills in application writing), we will use the funds to create SP with a solid story and decent voice actors.
Last edited by Radicalus on Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:55; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:53 Post subject: |
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If it has a gameplay that I like, I'd pay the 40-ish $.
I bought Over Flanders Field which is a modification (well to be honest is more than a modification) of Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3, and it cost me that amount. It's one of the best games I've ever played. Another version is due to release. I'll pay the bloody $40 or $50 that it will cost. No doubt.
I'll support any game I like.
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:54 Post subject: |
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warband developers arent indie.. they maybe were 10 years.. but thats about it..
everyone these days calls themself indie.. , anything over 20k in costs arent indie anymore if you ask me..
So are you saying you are making game with 150k budged .. with 6 man team as part time hobby, which will be released in a year? let me sum it up.. noone will play it..
Everyone today thinks indie and hc games should be.. simple, small, and well short..
how are you planing to release a real game within a year, with such small team working on it as part time hobby.. and its unreal engine.. not some 2d jump and eat mushrooms ( every indie seems to make those ) game..
Mature hc games will never ask you to release for free.. nor does this forums contain mature hc gamers.. sure 5 out of 100.. thats about it.. those "release for free", were obvious 16 years kidos
if you actually release decent game, slap 15-20 pricetag.. cuz i will never believe you can make full game in such short time..
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 22:59 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | I support a lot of indie developers and generally try to buy their games as much as possible. I honestly couldn't comment definitively on price, as they're always different, but $30 is generally what I pay for an indie title once I've played it and realised I enjoyed it, so wanted to support the developer.
Games like Zeno Clash, Evochron, Fate, Torchlight, Alien Shooter... etc etc... I've purchased on day of releas and still play today - because regardless of graphics, they're amazing games that suck you in and keep you playing. As for your game idea? I love the sound of it, though the MP-centric part gives me pause for concern and would most likely result in my ignoring it :\ I mean no offence to you whatsoever, I'm just not a MP-oriented gamer. |
half of those games were never considered indie games.. its same joke as s2 calling them self indie developers.. while i love them , they been in the field for a long time, got strong financial backing, and theirs games arent indie quality ( which is supbar )
in realitiy noone used indie term, year ago, and now everyone does.. its like new marketing trick..
if you can market your game.. ur not indie, if you can ship to stores, ur not indie.. if you got 150k for a game ur not indie .. if you spent 0 on a game working as couple of friends.. ur indie.. thats about it..
Last edited by Smikis. on Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:00; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:00 Post subject: |
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| Smikis. wrote: | warband developers arent indie.. they maybe were 10 years.. but thats about it..
everyone these days calls themself indie.. , anything over 20k in costs arent indie anymore if you ask me..
So are you saying you are making game with 150k budged .. with 6 man team as part time hobby, which will be released in a year? let me sum it up.. noone will play it..
Everyone today thinks indie and hc games should be.. simple, small, and well short..
how are you planing to release a real game within a year, with such small team working on it as part time hobby.. and its unreal engine.. not some 2d jump and eat mushrooms ( every indie seems to make those ) game..
Mature hc games will never ask you to release for free.. nor does this forums contain mature hc gamers.. sure 5 out of 100.. thats about it.. those "release for free", were obvious 16 years kidos
if you actually release decent game, slap 15-20 pricetag.. cuz i will never believe you can make full game in such short time.. |
Yes, this is why we decided to do a top down, low poly count sandbox/MP game by then. IF we receive funding, then we can hire more artists and fill it up with content. Should that happen, we will push the delay of course.
Also forgot to add, we have modding experience (mostly nwn1), and we have written software from A-Z before, just not games (and sold them). Two of us have ... decent experience with the unreal engine.
Last edited by Radicalus on Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:03; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:05 Post subject: |
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| Smikis. wrote: |
half of those games were never considered indie games.. its same joke as s2 calling them self indie developers.. while i love them , they been in the field for a long time, got strong financial backing, and theirs games arent indie quality ( which is supbar )
in realitiy noone used indie term, year ago, and now everyone does.. its like new marketing trick..
if you can market your game.. ur not indie, if you can ship to stores, ur not indie.. if you got 150k for a game ur not indie .. if you spent 0 on a game working as couple of friends.. ur indie.. thats about it.. |
Oh dear god, what the FUCK are you babblng about? Indie doesn't mean some POS flash or java game, numpty. Indie; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_gaming
"Development houses not supported by a publisher"
So EVERY game I listed came from an independent software house. Where the fuck did you get this preposterous idea that to be "indie" you have to produce something for zero cost? Jesus H Christ... 
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:17 Post subject: |
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If the gameplay holds it own, I personally don't even care much about the graphics. In fact, my whole group of mates who I play my games with doesn't. We've thoroughly enjoyed small games like Plants vs. Zombies, Defense Grid, Madballz, Torchlight, and so on. We've bought each and every one, and I think it was definitely worth my money. Funnily enough, these games are more polished than a game like Alpha Protocol.
The above may not all be from indie developers (Defense Grid for example), but they all cost me less than 30 euros (which is cheap for us, trust me  ).
I'd take more time to polish it up though, why the 1 year rush?
| Smikis. wrote: | | if you can market your game.. ur not indie, if you can ship to stores, ur not indie.. if you got 150k for a game ur not indie .. if you spent 0 on a game working as couple of friends.. ur indie.. thats about it.. |
Marketing for an indie game requires little to no money these days; we have something called the internet now
An indie game is one that is created, developed, published and distributed in-house on a relatively low budget (and 150k is low). Like I said, marketing doesn't have to cost tons, and nor does shipping thanks to the internet.
Last edited by Werelds on Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:20; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:17 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | Smikis. wrote: |
half of those games were never considered indie games.. its same joke as s2 calling them self indie developers.. while i love them , they been in the field for a long time, got strong financial backing, and theirs games arent indie quality ( which is supbar )
in realitiy noone used indie term, year ago, and now everyone does.. its like new marketing trick..
if you can market your game.. ur not indie, if you can ship to stores, ur not indie.. if you got 150k for a game ur not indie .. if you spent 0 on a game working as couple of friends.. ur indie.. thats about it.. |
Oh dear god, what the FUCK are you babblng about? Indie doesn't mean some POS flash or java game, numpty. Indie; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_gaming
"Development houses not supported by a publisher"
So EVERY game I listed came from an independent software house. Where the fuck did you get this preposterous idea that to be "indie" you have to produce something for zero cost? Jesus H Christ... |
everyone is indie then, thats what ur trying to say? thats where your indie logic falls to stall.. ur smarter than that..
can you call witcher developers indie? im sure you do.. cuz they are by your logic , there are so many companies that produce games, and get published by various publishers, its A PUBLISHER not a support group, you develop a game, when its nearing completion , you find yourself a publisher... does that makes it indie?
maybe you should call blizzard indie too , i mean they publish them self.. you know everyone can edit wikipedia.. you sound like console gamer currently..
you just cant be serious with your wikipedia quote..
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:20 Post subject: |
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Dot Dot Dot.
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you develop a game, when its nearing completion , you find yourself a publisher... does that makes it indie?
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No, you dummy. Having a publisher means you are NOT an indie studio. Sheesh. I sound like a console gamer because I linked to an article (Wiki not good enough for you? How about I link to a dozen others?) that expressly defines an independent studio outline? Dude, wait.. what? Seriously man.... are you drunk?
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:23 Post subject: |
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| pwerelds wrote: | | Like I said, marketing doesn't have to cost tons, and nor does shipping thanks to the internet. |
marketing cost tons, maybe you should read some actual indie devs interviews, having internet means nothing, how will you market your game.. spamm forums? pay for some cheap google adds? which will popup in all wrong places, and even if you dont block them, by now noone watch them, its like those alods ( new free mmorpg ) which pops in yahoo or somewhere else.. i look it and i know this game deserves better than that..
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:23 Post subject: |
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Smikis dude... go sleep it off. Seriously.
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:27 Post subject: |
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I'd pay full price for a game that would be considered "old school". A game that isn't extremely shallow or extremely dumbed down. I don't care about fancy graphics at all or some famous actors doing voice acting however I do deeply care about the game play and what it offers. Even though indie games has picked up a lot recently few of them carries any really depth and most of them are simple games catering to pretty much everyone.
Oh and about the game you are working on, It did sound interesting until the multiplayer part. A game like that sounds like it would benefit a lot more from a solid story where you can take a bit more time with your characters. As it is today there is ever barely any games worth buying for the single player part, most PC games today focuses 100% on MP and if there even is SP it's extremely short and shallow. I really don't mind paying full price for games and there is a reason I never used to pirate games and that is because back in the days the games were just so much better and you knew what you would get, today more than half of the game isn't worth playing trough even if they are free.
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:36 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | Dot Dot Dot.
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you develop a game, when its nearing completion , you find yourself a publisher... does that makes it indie?
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No, you dummy. Having a publisher means you are NOT an indie studio. Sheesh. I sound like a console gamer because I linked to an article (Wiki not good enough for you? How about I link to a dozen others?) that expressly defines an independent studio outline? Dude, wait.. what? Seriously man.... are you drunk? |
if ur independent, finding publisher doesnt make you otherwise.. its a cooperation..
can you call those new game studios, which poped out of nowhere.. with millions to back them up, Trion for example.. as indie..
can you call valve indie? they surely began as one , and apart having sierra publishing for them once or twice they are still indie by your logic...
it all boils down to the way you see things, if you want to make everyone indie, go ahead i wont stop you
its a term that noone used a year ago, and now everyone slapping it on everything and everyone, its new marketing trick for products that arent aaa, thats the way i see it..
Last edited by Smikis. on Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:40; edited 3 times in total
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Ashok0
Posts: 1733
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:45 Post subject: |
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First of all I don't believe that indie games can or will save pc-gaming. Sure there's the odd good indie game every year but the bulk revenue is produced by the big publishers like they always has.
Second I don't believe in subsidicing. If it's good enough people wil and shouldl buy it. If it isn't then it would actually do more harm to pc-gaming if people bought it then if they didn't. The last thing we need is getting a horde of crappy games swarming the pc-market for a quick buck.
Thirdly I don't think the pc market is endangered at all. In fact I'm more optimistic then I've been for years. With the popularity of direct download services like Steam and direct purchases from Publishers I believe revenues has rised lately. Didn't PC games stand for a third of the total revenues of UBI according to the latest figures? There's effectively three platforms on the market today; ps3, 360 and the PC. It's not fair to compare consoles vs pc as they're three separate units. I believe the PC is doing just fine both in revenues and game releases. All platforms has their exclusives.
The only thing that ultimately can save PC-gaming is that people stop pirating games. At least the good games. Always follow the money. If there's money to be had on releasing pc-games they will release pc-games. It's as simple as that.
Last edited by Taffelost on Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:48; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:48 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa??? Stop saying "by your logic" - it's infuriating having someone misread my words so intently and then claiming I said something completely different. Valve are not indie, nor were they ever. It does not boil down to how you see it, it boils down to fact;
small development houses without the financial backing of a publisher are, by the very nature of it, INDEPENDENT. They are indie studios and that's that. Just because they put a lot of money (and believe me, $150k is NOT a lot of money these days) into development does not make them any less indie.
Gah. My brain hurts. Make the bad man stop typing, please Lord  |
see now you saying totally new thing, which is more like it..
i still dont see how you can call runic games as indie, they formed after flagship went kaput
and continued on game they were working for years.. even if it was totally new its still something they did for a longtime now, and putting a new face on doesnt make that exactly new.. and they never said it was..
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:50 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jun 2010 23:58 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A PUBLISHER OR ANY KIND OF BACKING, AND THEY ARE ONLY A SMALL DEVELOPMENT TEAM!!!!
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!
/hits the nice ignore button and basks in the heavenly absence of silliness. |
| Quote: | Independent video game development is the process of creating video games without the financial support of a video game publisher. While large companies can create independent games, they are typically designed by an individual or a small team of as many as ten people, depending on the complexity of the project. These games may take years to be constructed from the ground up or can be completed in a matter of days or even hours depending on complexity, participants, and design goal.
Driven by digital distribution, the concept of independent video game development has spawned an "indie" movement.[1] These games often focus on innovation,[2] and have occasionally become extremely successful.[3] |
i suppose you didnt read your own wikipedia link.. did you now, last lane obviously points towards "name it indie, and it will succeed "
Valve doesnt have any kinda of backing and they dont have publisher, their development team certainly isnt huge either.. not to mention indie isnt exclusive to small companies only..
in the end it is as i said before, you can call indie pretty much everyone if you wish..
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Ashok0
Posts: 1733
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jun 2010 00:47 Post subject: |
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For me indie games mean games that are developed by independent developers. Independent as in developers that don't need to be backed up by publisher and that they can do whatever they want with their product. Many studios are under publisher's supervising, and they are forced by them to do what they otherwise wouldn't do. As a result it is mostly term used for developer (or very small development team), that does not need as much financial backing. If you've got team of 20 or more developers, you need hell of a lot more money and these studios basically need to be under publishers, otherwise they wouldn't survive.
And now there's the Valve thing. By my logic they should be classified as indie developers, and partially I would call them indie developers, but they are bit different than let's say Jonathan Blow.
Please note this is just my opinion. I don't consider this to be 100% correct.
And OP: I don't really think PC gaming needs to be "saved". And even if it did - if you are asking whether I would save PC gaming by buying your game without knowing if I like the game, then no.
Intel Core i7 6700K @ 4.6 GHz | Asus Z170 Pro Gaming | Corsair Vengenace LPX 16GB DDR4 3200 MHz | MSI GeForce GTX 1080 FE | Samsung 850 EVO 500 GB + 250 GB | EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2 | Fractal Design Define R5 | Noctua NH-D14
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jun 2010 00:56 Post subject: |
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15-20€
But if the game sucks no one would even go to pay 1$ on it so... polish it, take your time, have a nice and logic gameplay and most important of all, don't let the player feel himself like a stupid kid 
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LeoNatan
Banned
Posts: 73193
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jun 2010 00:59 Post subject: |
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Will there be "follow the white light" mode? I find games too difficult without it! 
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jun 2010 01:04 Post subject: |
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What i feel nostalgic about is the difference or what used to be the difference between PC and console gaming for 15+ years was that console games were about inserting the game and you were ready to play it, simple fun game play. PC was more complex, less forgiving, pushing bounderies, experimenting. I feel there simply isnt a difference anymore, whatever worked for PC in the past 15 years got dumbed down and useless or even gameplay breaking "features" were added just to hype it.
Now how does this matter to you? Make the game the way you think it should be without any compromise, think about gameplay, dont add stuff just to have a big feature list, refine the gameplay, you can only invent the wheel once, try to make it rounder instead of giving it more fancy rims.
also when you sell a full game give it full game content, i see so many games having massive investment in art department, physics and what not, and it ends up being used for only 6 hours of gameplay.Im not a game designer but i recon once you put so much time in building the backbone of the game, adding missions etc is the least time consuming.
Make the game as bug free as possible, dont rush it out, game reviews and the playerbase are unforgiving.
Dont forget about the game once its released! not just patches with the remaining bugfixes, gameplay refinements, a new mission/level. Valve and the devs of for example the game Trine are perfect examples, they add overtime small additions to the game what others might even dare selling as a DLC 1/5th of the full game price. The extended support hits all the gaming news sites and gives a good impression, TF2 got even more popular this way.
Talking about DLCs, as i said its the biggest rip off possible these days, and are often content that should have been in the main game to begin with. a Real expansion pack is the way to go, you have the backbone all programmed, you have the tools and experience to make new art/missions more effectivly which will cost you less in development and the buyer will feel that he gets something solid for his cash.
Digital distribution is great for those who like it but its not a solution for many people especially outside the USA where credit cards arent a common way of payment. i like to have the game available at all times on my shelf ready to install. Not to mention having your game simply on a shelf at a PC game store is bound to get some sales.
DRM ? forget about it, even the most uninformed person somehow hears about it and is scared away by it, not to mention everything gets cracked anyhow. I know you have the right to protect your work, but if you make a good game, keep supporting it, i simply cant see how you cant run a profit out of it. a crappy game with DRM will still get your crappy sales.
I hope this helps
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jun 2010 01:08 Post subject: Re: How far would you go to save PC gaming? |
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| Radicalus wrote: |
And here comes the question: what would YOU do, to support indie games? Do you think they should be sold for 5-15$ (even though content wise they equal a modern game, only the production values are lower), or do you put your money where your mouth is, and pay 40-ish $ for a game that is challenging, but doesn't look/animate so hot?
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I find this statement to be a little bit iffy. As a 3D artist the idea of my work being boiled down to "only" production values, therefore not worth more than a few dollars out of the $50-60 someone pays for a game, is a little bit irksome. By the time a game enters full production the art team will consist of at least 50% more employees than any of the management/design/programming teams.
Essentially, the aesthetically pleasing nature of video game art is part of what makes a game worth full price.
You can answer this question yourself, though. You have a choice between game A and game B:
Game A) Red Dead Redemption. Developed by hundreds of game developers at Rockstar San Diego, in addition to the hundred+ outsourced voice actors/etc. at a cost of over $60million. Several years development time. Huge SP storyline and beautiful art.
Game B) Independent game developed by a handful of people in their spare time at a cost of a few hundred thousand. A little over a year development time. Little to no SP, little to no art.
Would you pay roughly the same amount of money for games A and B?
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