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 Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:02 Post subject: I see you, I kill you! |
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I'd like to start a discussion about FPS games, modern FPS games in particular.
What I love about my favourite FPS games, that I still play in multiplayer (CSS, TF2, UT2004, UT 3, some others) is the fact, that all battles can turn out in a great many different ways, based on player skill in combat. Combat. What I mean is, if someone gets a jump on you, you'r not dead by default. You hear the sounds, turn around, you still have quite the chance of survival.
Same thing if you attack more people at once, if you're good, you can kill 3-4 people attacking at once easily, because you dodge their shots, while you land yours.
In modern shooters, like MW, MW2 and the likes, which I did play a lot in multi, even though I don't own them, the situation couldn't be more different. I call these shooters: whoever sees the other one first, wins.
I find it, that movement is simply not that important in these newer games, especially since the game absolutely rewards standing in one place while shooting with greatly superior accuracy. People thus also camp a lot, and camping is very effective (camping is also rewarded with kill streaks - which call in all sorts of unfair stuff, like air strikes). The only skill in these games is aiming, and placing yourself in a position, where you have more of a chance of seeing your enemies, before they see you (in some cases known as camping).
Why did moving and shooting get the huge nerf bat? Those were skill games, these new Call of Derp shooters don't require half the skill the old shooters did, and don't even have a quarter of the skill ceiling.
What new game should a player like me look forward to? I just honestly, with no arrogance included, find these new shooters beneath me.
What do you think about this "see you first, kill you first" design philosophy of modern FPS-es?
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:11 Post subject: |
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im not a fan of it. i like the idea that skill will win the day, not relying on fluke to just happen to come up behind someone. its one of my main beefs with crysis 2's multiplayer...
i like tf2, where i can get attacked from behind by a soldier, while im a bow wielding sniper, WHILE im out in the open, and still come out on top if im the better player.. which is usually 
crysis 2, if someone sees you first, they will most of the time kill you, unless you fluke it, or theyre not very good. likewise, if you come up on someone and get that first shot in, youre almost certain to win the fight.
so yeah.. not particularily fond of this style of gameplay... in theory it would 'reward' stealthy players, who are all about thinking tactically and not rushing in... but in practice, it rarely ends up that way. i dont think it'll be long before i uninstall crysis2, and get back into tf2.
only question is: will i get bored of it first, or will crytek actually do some work and get around to blocking the unauthorized keys
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:31 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | im not a fan of it. i like the idea that skill will win the day, not relying on fluke to just happen to come up behind someone. its one of my main beefs with crysis 2's multiplayer...
i like tf2, where i can get attacked from behind by a soldier, while im a bow wielding sniper, WHILE im out in the open, and still come out on top if im the better player.. which is usually
crysis 2, if someone sees you first, they will most of the time kill you, unless you fluke it, or theyre not very good. likewise, if you come up on someone and get that first shot in, youre almost certain to win the fight.
so yeah.. not particularily fond of this style of gameplay... in theory it would 'reward' stealthy players, who are all about thinking tactically and not rushing in... but in practice, it rarely ends up that way. i dont think it'll be long before i uninstall crysis2, and get back into tf2.
only question is: will i get bored of it first, or will crytek actually do some work and get around to blocking the unauthorized keys |
But tactical play is completely in TF2. I play scout and spy mainly, and both are very tactical, positioning is very important, but it won't win you the cake.
I love playing spy in good pubs, where people are aware, but even with spy, there are two things to consider: getting behind players, that are aware and moving fast across the battlefield is not a simple as camping. Second, if you are discovered, even a spy, you can kill your enemy, if you dodge well, and trick your opponent.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:37 Post subject: |
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I feel exactly the same; which is why i cant play anything else than bc2 or mag. Even if you get shot at from behind you can still run for cover or just turn around and shoot and turn the tide.
| chiv wrote: | | i like tf2, where i can get attacked from behind by a soldier, while im a bow wielding sniper, WHILE im out in the open, and still come out on top if im the better player |
Exactly, and thats the most rewarding aspect in a fps. Modern shooters like CoD miss that, but players dont notice, cuz they wouldnt manage to pull anything off anyway
ASUS TUF B550M-PLUS | RYZEN 5600x | RTX 3060TI | 16GB DDR4
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:37 Post subject: |
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I agree completely. That's part of the reason I always preferred Counter-Strike Beta versions(5.2 and up) over the steam versions( 1.0 and up). In the betas, you basically *had* to run/jump around and use movement, or you'd be a very easy target. This was made more difficult in the later versions because of changes to the movement system( partially to remove bunny-jumping).
Playing some Black Ops multiplayer, where movement is already very limited especially as it relates to jumping, and where sprinting is penalized by long recovery time before you can shoot, there are actually servers which will kick/ban you if you "jump and shoot", so to speak. It's gotten completely ridiculous.
I'd say it's part of the dumbing-down thing though. Only poor players and/or campers gain advantage from not being able to use movement as a way of "dodging bullets".
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:42 Post subject: |
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| Radicalus wrote: | | chiv wrote: | im not a fan of it. i like the idea that skill will win the day, not relying on fluke to just happen to come up behind someone. its one of my main beefs with crysis 2's multiplayer...
i like tf2, where i can get attacked from behind by a soldier, while im a bow wielding sniper, WHILE im out in the open, and still come out on top if im the better player.. which is usually
crysis 2, if someone sees you first, they will most of the time kill you, unless you fluke it, or theyre not very good. likewise, if you come up on someone and get that first shot in, youre almost certain to win the fight.
so yeah.. not particularily fond of this style of gameplay... in theory it would 'reward' stealthy players, who are all about thinking tactically and not rushing in... but in practice, it rarely ends up that way. i dont think it'll be long before i uninstall crysis2, and get back into tf2.
only question is: will i get bored of it first, or will crytek actually do some work and get around to blocking the unauthorized keys |
But tactical play is completely in TF2. I play scout and spy mainly, and both are very tactical, positioning is very important, but it won't win you the cake.
I love playing spy in good pubs, where people are aware, but even with spy, there are two things to consider: getting behind players, that are aware and moving fast across the battlefield is not a simple as camping. Second, if you are discovered, even a spy, you can kill your enemy, if you dodge well, and trick your opponent. |
not saying its not IN tf2, what im saying is that a fight, once started, could go either way.
by contrast, in crysis 2, once a fight starts, it usually goes to whoever spotted the other and fired first. |
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 17:44 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | | Radicalus wrote: | | chiv wrote: | im not a fan of it. i like the idea that skill will win the day, not relying on fluke to just happen to come up behind someone. its one of my main beefs with crysis 2's multiplayer...
i like tf2, where i can get attacked from behind by a soldier, while im a bow wielding sniper, WHILE im out in the open, and still come out on top if im the better player.. which is usually
crysis 2, if someone sees you first, they will most of the time kill you, unless you fluke it, or theyre not very good. likewise, if you come up on someone and get that first shot in, youre almost certain to win the fight.
so yeah.. not particularily fond of this style of gameplay... in theory it would 'reward' stealthy players, who are all about thinking tactically and not rushing in... but in practice, it rarely ends up that way. i dont think it'll be long before i uninstall crysis2, and get back into tf2.
only question is: will i get bored of it first, or will crytek actually do some work and get around to blocking the unauthorized keys |
But tactical play is completely in TF2. I play scout and spy mainly, and both are very tactical, positioning is very important, but it won't win you the cake.
I love playing spy in good pubs, where people are aware, but even with spy, there are two things to consider: getting behind players, that are aware and moving fast across the battlefield is not a simple as camping. Second, if you are discovered, even a spy, you can kill your enemy, if you dodge well, and trick your opponent. |
not saying its not IN tf2, what im saying is that a fight, once started, could go either way.
by contrast, in crysis 2, once a fight starts, it usually goes to whoever spotted the other and fired first. |
We agree, we agree, I just wanted to expand on what you were saying.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 18:46 Post subject: |
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I'm also sick of COD and it's clones. My favorite multiplayer games are stuff like TF2, L4D, Quake 3 (I know, ancient but fun) & Killing Floor and the UT games.
What attracts me to these old fashion games (L4d excluded) is all the fun and crazy stuff going on all the time. You know, stuff that on top of being entertaining, will on occasion be plain laugh inducing when rocket jumpers and limbs go flying everywhere.
These games also make me live longer pr. spawn, as opposed to COD where it feels more like "Spawn, run for 5-10 sec, death! Or Hey! I got a kill! Shit! I'm dead!".
All in all, I just prefer either Ultra Realistic games like ARMA, Op: Flashpoint1 or Crazy but fun games like Quake and TF2 etc.
COD and it's clones are pretending to be realistic military games, but they are far from it, and yet they contain some elements of realism, and this Imho completely fucks up those games, and pisses me of because I feel the games don't have a logical set of rules like if it was a true Military Sim.
I mean, it's pretty annoying trying to play realistic in an attempt to rack up some kills just to be repeatedly killed by a knife spamming moron who picked a perk called ninja, which makes him silent, and who has mastered the "running in circles while knife spamming".
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 18:56 Post subject: |
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Yes, interestingly, CoD forces usually very evened out KD ratio. My KD in games like UT, TF2 or CSS are often 5-6, especially when I go scout in TF2 (even good pubs just can't handle the great mobility of a good in-snipe-out scout. In CoD, where I play against people with aim as good as my TF2 opponents, and I can barely get higher than 2 - true, I just can't camp, and I move about all the bloody time, which gets me killed by campers on many occasions.
You see, let's take a scout vs. scout in tf2 - you need to dodge, and aim in the fraction of a second, and you need to do that a lot. Really good scouts kill you in two shots, unless you move completely unpredictably (not just left-right-left-right).
Truth be told, I somewhat blame the derp controller for this, no matter how godlike you are, you just simply can't do as many things as well as you can with a M+K. I have never seen any skill videos from the derpbox of someone playing scout even half as well as a mediocre scout on PC. I'm not exaggeration. We all know where the bulk of the CoD sales come from.
Yes, I love to bitch about consoles ruining our glorious PC gaming master race fun, but in this case I think it's spot on.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 19:36 Post subject: |
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I'm not fps player, I only play some sp game from time to time. I'm only wondering something. Isn't the second approach more realistic and is in games also for a long time? I'm pretty sure that in old Rainbow Six games, players were not awarded for running around and firing.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 19:37 Post subject: |
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| fawe4 wrote: | | I'm not fps player, I only play some sp game from time to time. I'm only wondering something. Isn't the second approach more realistic and is in games also for a long time? I'm pretty sure that in old Rainbow Six games, players were not awarded for running around and firing. |
R6 games were tactical games though, planning was important.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 20:08 Post subject: |
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To me the most rewarding "skills" in a FPS online games should be movement and awereness of surroundings. Preferably at a furious pace. In those games an unskilled player hardly ever beat a skilled player. I miss UT and Quake, theres been a long time since ive felt the same satisfaction as "godliking" a full 20people server in a couple of minutes...
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 20:26 Post subject: |
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i didnt notice this until now.... so this is why im not enjoying new fps fames...
I feared it was because I’m getting older….
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 20:31 Post subject: |
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Blame consoles for this, as you already know FPS on consoles dont require skill.
Missing the UT days myself, that was fucking awsome.
huge ass player/server count, custom maps, mods (Tactical ops anyone? the ultimate CS killer)
Q6600/Club3D 4890/2GB DDR2/WiN7\XP/1.5 TB/23 Inch LCD
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:06 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:47; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:18 Post subject: |
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Hmm, loads of tf2 players, we should get together mates!
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:23 Post subject: |
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youre way off. we want games where skill determines the outcome, NOT chance and luck.
counterstrike had recoil, and rewarded precise shooting, yet we praise it as an ideal shooter, so clearly youre misunderstanding.
its not about lacking recoil or not rewarding precise aim. far from it.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:31 Post subject: |
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| me7 wrote: | If I get this right, you guys demand shooters that don't punish run-and-gun tactics. You want to bunny hop with an assault rifle and still be able shoot precisely, without recoil and lack of stability in your (the character's) hands.
...and games that try to simulate recoil and force you to prone for precise shooting are simplified and derp.
Am I the only one who feels confused?  |
The problem with COD (As I said before) is that it tries to be realistic, but fails and therefore it's a more confusing game.
You want a realistic military shooter, play Arma 2. That game has realistic "rules" so to speak, meaning won't have to worry about Insta kill knife spamming idiots with 100% silent movement, and you will have stuff realistic Air support (when you call for support, it actually takes some time before it arrives AND it can be directly controlled by your team mates), instead of Killstreak spamming.
In short, with games like ARMA you KNOW that a bullet can kill you while a knife stab by a moron running in circles won't.
This is much better than trying to mix real life with fantastic moves. You want crazy/fantastic, play TF2 and watch the battlefield go nuts in cartoon violence.
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:38 Post subject: |
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| me7 wrote: | If I get this right, you guys demand shooters that don't punish run-and-gun tactics. You want to bunny hop with an assault rifle and still be able shoot precisely, without recoil and lack of stability in your (the character's) hands.
...and games that try to simulate recoil and force you to prone for precise shooting are simplified and derp.
Am I the only one who feels confused? |
Yes, requiring you to stay in one place to shoot is realistic, yet simplified. We don't want realistic, we want gameplay, that pushes gamers to the edge, one, that requires them to do many tasks in parallel, and do them well to succeed.
Like a scout in TF2. You have to keep track of your enemies, select the perfect timing to jump in near a soldier, a heavy and a medic, to kill the medic. You need situational awareness to the max, chose the timing of your assault, like when the heavy is shooting someone, and the soldier is reloading. You have to pay attention, to where they think you will go, and dodge that place (and the incoming missle), all the while chasing the medic, and pumping him with lead. Then you have to follow your escape plan through, and escape - you did have an escape plan before going in, right? Also, this whole deal has to go through your head lightning fast, we're talking 3-4 seconds here, and in the meantime you have to aim to perfection, to pull it off.
No, it's not realistic, because soldiers in real life don't double-jump. Games have evolved to this fast paced combat back in the 90s and early 00s for a reason, because armed with a keyboard and mouse, people were capable of incredible things.
CoD and other games of the like limit, what you can do. You are forced in to a certain passive-camping gameplay, because that's what was rewarded, not extraordinary skill, like in games of the past. A game like TF2 or UT is superior in every way, every conceivable way for a hardcore gamer than this modern warfare shit.
FPS games of the past also have loads higher skill ceilings. I've put 250 (I think) hours in my scout in TF2, I dominate pubs, like there's no tomorrow, even the really good ones, yet I die in 1-2 seconds to any pro scout, I barely even hit them, I just can't predict how they move, and they can predict, how I move.
So do I want realism? Realism could work, but realistically, the success of combat depends very little on the skill of one man, it depends on the team work of many. So either make a realistic shooter, where you need great tactics and team work - OR make a twitch shooter, where you need great skill (TF2 combines these two btw, not realistic, but very team work dependent). Utter shit, like modern warfare are realistic in how moving in a real life situation affects your aim, but then again, it doesn't simulate the teamwork required.
All in all, modern shitware is just that ... shitware for people who want to feel 1337 while playing a shooter with a controller.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:39 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | youre way off. we want games where skill determines the outcome, NOT chance and luck.
counterstrike had recoil, and rewarded precise shooting, yet we praise it as an ideal shooter, so clearly youre misunderstanding.
its not about lacking recoil or not rewarding precise aim. far from it. |
Yes, but give me a desert eagle, which had good accuracy whilst on the move, and you just made me a serial killer. Moving is still very important in CS and even more so in CSS. Moving is not important in modern shitware.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 21:57 Post subject: |
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| Kyorisu wrote: | | me7 wrote: | If I get this right, you guys demand shooters that don't punish run-and-gun tactics. You want to bunny hop with an assault rifle and still be able shoot precisely, without recoil and lack of stability in your (the character's) hands.
...and games that try to simulate recoil and force you to prone for precise shooting are simplified and derp.
Am I the only one who feels confused? |
And what you want games that don't punish people for camping? You want to prone on the ground with sniper rifles and kill anyone who dares have the crazy idea of moving?
Good games like Quake and UT are an entirely different ball game. You need to constantly move, aim, think and time things all at the same time. Any derp can hide behind a door and kill people who walk past but that derp won't have a chance in hell in a fast paced shooter like Quake or UT.
Realism is boring at times. Seriously go outside right now and be amazed as nothing of interest is happening unless you're some kind of nature buff. Pseduo realistic games are fun don't get me wrong but if I can't get into a firefight with my attacker I get bored fast. I consider myself an above average player but nowhere near being a pro of any sort (I don't want to be one either). Still I find in public games with people who are often much less skilled than me rather than fight me they'll run away or only engage if I'm preoccupied. I didn't have this problem in Quake or UT, in those games every bastard who was in eye sight would gun for me or anyone else and fight like a man and die like a man. I'm sick of gutless cowards that recent popular games have created with their flawed "realistic" mechanics. |
Even funnier is, when these 12 year old know-nothings start shouting "pwnzored!" and the likes after every kill they get - with their camping sniper asses from half a mile away. Yes, CSS had its fair share of trolls, but at least you were ridiculed there, if you didn't back it up with skill. Now, in modern shitware, these stupid 12 year olds, who couldn't speak proper english, if their life depended on it, reinforce each other. They are allowed to empower their own silly behavior. Pretty funny too.
Last edited by Radicalus on Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:04; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:02 Post subject: |
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| Radicalus wrote: | | chiv wrote: | youre way off. we want games where skill determines the outcome, NOT chance and luck.
counterstrike had recoil, and rewarded precise shooting, yet we praise it as an ideal shooter, so clearly youre misunderstanding.
its not about lacking recoil or not rewarding precise aim. far from it. |
Yes, but give me a desert eagle, which had good accuracy whilst on the move, and you just made me a serial killer. Moving is still very important in CS and even more so in CSS. Moving is not important in modern shitware. |
Funny, In real life, the Desert Eagle is a powerful but heavy gun, so it's actually not very good due to it's weight and powerful recoil. 
It's sexy, but useless
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
Last edited by maul_inc on Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:05; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:04 Post subject: |
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| Radicalus wrote: | | Kyorisu wrote: | | me7 wrote: | If I get this right, you guys demand shooters that don't punish run-and-gun tactics. You want to bunny hop with an assault rifle and still be able shoot precisely, without recoil and lack of stability in your (the character's) hands.
...and games that try to simulate recoil and force you to prone for precise shooting are simplified and derp.
Am I the only one who feels confused? |
And what you want games that don't punish people for camping? You want to prone on the ground with sniper rifles and kill anyone who dares have the crazy idea of moving?
Good games like Quake and UT are an entirely different ball game. You need to constantly move, aim, think and time things all at the same time. Any derp can hide behind a door and kill people who walk past but that derp won't have a chance in hell in a fast paced shooter like Quake or UT.
Realism is boring at times. Seriously go outside right now and be amazed as nothing of interest is happening unless you're some kind of nature buff. Pseduo realistic games are fun don't get me wrong but if I can't get into a firefight with my attacker I get bored fast. I consider myself an above average player but nowhere near being a pro of any sort (I don't want to be one either). Still I find in public games with people who are often much less skilled than me rather than fight me they'll run away or only engage if I'm preoccupied. I didn't have this problem in Quake or UT, in those games every bastard who was in eye sight would gun for me or anyone else and fight like a man and die like a man. I'm sick of gutless cowards that recent popular games have created with their flawed "realistic" mechanics. |
Even funnier is, when these 12 year old know-nothings start shouting "pwnzored!" and the likes after every kill they get - with their camping sniper asses from half a mile away. Yes, CSS had its fair share of trolls, but at least no one took you were ridiculed there, if you didn't back it up with skill. Now, in modern shitware, these stupid 12 year olds, who couldn't speak proper english, if their life depended on it, reinforce each other. They are allowed to empower their own silly behavior. Pretty funny too. |
Which reminds me. COD is the only only Online game I have played where there's always a Crapload of foulmouthed children and sad Fucks (Didn't expect that on a PC version, but hey! It's COD). 
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:07 Post subject: |
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| maul_inc wrote: | | Radicalus wrote: | | chiv wrote: | youre way off. we want games where skill determines the outcome, NOT chance and luck.
counterstrike had recoil, and rewarded precise shooting, yet we praise it as an ideal shooter, so clearly youre misunderstanding.
its not about lacking recoil or not rewarding precise aim. far from it. |
Yes, but give me a desert eagle, which had good accuracy whilst on the move, and you just made me a serial killer. Moving is still very important in CS and even more so in CSS. Moving is not important in modern shitware. |
Funny, In real life, the Desert Eagle is powerful but heavy gun, but it's actually not very good due to it's weight and powerful recoil.
It's sexy, but useless |
True as that may be, my point was to prove, that CSS was and is closer to UT or quake, than to MW2. Sure, you don't have missles and ripper blades, but you HAD to move, and move well to kill and stay alive. In MW2, every time I moved a lot, I died. Every time I stayed in one good spot - or moved through a few tactically - I racked up the kills. Great game, yeah!
And as much as people hated bunny hopping in CS or CSS, it isn't easy to pull off, especially in the heat of battle.
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:09 Post subject: |
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| maul_inc wrote: |
Which reminds me. COD is the only only Online game I have played where there's always a Crapload of foulmouthed children and sad Fucks (Didn't expect that on a PC version, but hey! It's COD). |
I don't know, if it's because I'm getting older, but these days, I simply have no tolerance for loudmouth 12 year olds. I might be wrong, but I swear, when I was twelve, we didn't badmouth other players, especially older ones - and better ones. Of course, when I was twelve, we played DOOM 
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:10 Post subject: |
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| Kyorisu wrote: | | And what you want games that don't punish people for camping? You want to prone on the ground with sniper rifles and kill anyone who dares have the crazy idea of moving? |
Actually I don't want anything since I'm not interested in multiplayer shooters.
I just know people who praise Battlefield 2 and consider it a true PC game because you can't run-and-gun and a big MGs are only useful when you strategically pick a position to prone at the beginning of a confrontation - otherwise you can't hit shit due to the recoil.
Apparently there are two kinds of elitists, the Battlefield 2 elitists and the Unreal Tournament elitists, each of them considering the opposite extreme of the spectrum of shooters as "skill based".
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Apr 2011 22:11 Post subject: |
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| me7 wrote: | | Kyorisu wrote: | | And what you want games that don't punish people for camping? You want to prone on the ground with sniper rifles and kill anyone who dares have the crazy idea of moving? |
Actually I don't want anything since I'm not interested in multiplayer shooters.
I just know people who praise Battlefield 2 and consider it a true PC game because you can't run-and-gun and a big MGs are only useful when you strategically pick a position to prone at the beginning of a confrontation - otherwise you can't hit shit.
Apparently there are two kinds of elitists, the Battlefield 2 elitists and the Unreal Tournament elitists, each of them considering the opposite extreme of the spectrum of shooters as "skill based". |
My longass post (a few ones back) explains, how both these are pretty deep games - one for it's tactical team play, the other for the twitch skill. MW and the likes require none of the above. They just require camping, and sometimes, getting in to position - to camp.
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