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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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 Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 20:11 Post subject: Is this argument valid? |
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This is only for evaluation purposes, to see if you believe the argument is valid, it is not a representation of what I believe:
This image above was used by a hamburger restaurant, clearly displaying a person eating a hamburger. This is degrading towards everyone who are obese or overweight as it promotes eating. The problem with food commercials today is that many of them are outright revolting for those who have eating disorders, they tend to commercialize and exploit consumerism by promoting an "eating lifestyle". It puts those of us who are, I emphasize genetically and socially predisposed in a severe disadvantage to all other members of society. It is becoming tiresome to see these images in commercials and the general disapproval through genetic norms by society. A vast percentage of our population suffer from obesity and are greatly affected by these type of messages. I think we need to have a societal awareness against messages like these that promote an unhealthy lifestyle that discriminates against so many.
I suggest that food companies keep an as neutral and unbiased representation of nourishment as possible, and not using "lifestyle" as an argument to further promote obesity. Naturally this also applies to soft-drinks, and other edibles as well. We need a society that is fair to everyone, and does not exploit and take advantage of people.
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1. If you do not think that the argument is valid, then how so? Which of the premises do you disagree with and why?
2. Would the same argument be valid in another case, if so which and why?
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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vaifan1986
Posts: 4641
Location: Birthplace of the necktie.
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 20:18 Post subject: |
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Everyone willing to debate is refreshing the steam site xD
Micek:
i7 4790K @ 4.6GHz- Gigabyte Z97X-Gaming 3 - 980 WF3 \o/ - 16GB Corsair - WD 4TB - Mountain of SSDs - Dell UltraSharp U2414H 24''
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 20:19 Post subject: |
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I don't see 'lifestyle' in this photo. I see a normal person eating any old hamburger.
My position is that I am fine with 'lifestyle' advert. Be it cigarettes, booze, hamburgers, whatever.
I am intelligent enough to see through it and make my own decisions.
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kumkss
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TSR69
Banned
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 20:33 Post subject: |
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Looking at the picture, this woman looks like she has a tantalising spiritual experience while eating this oversized burger. It would probably better fit an anti obesity ad. If you really are without ethics I would show good looking, healthy people eating oversized burgers while being cool and having fun, like Coca Cola commercials.
I don't think that people with obesity should be offended, they just get confronted with themselves. On the other hand people with anorexia shouldn't be watching commercials at all I guess. While Mchart is intelligent enough to make his own decisions, many in the USA are getting clearly brainwashed. I think it is highly unlikely that majority of the obese people have eating disorders. It's a cultural brainwashing thing (ads, commercials). The commercials shouldn't be changed, they shouldn't be there.
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Invasor
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tonizito
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 20:42 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: | | That would be bad advertisement. No one want's to be an old lady, so it fails to be a lifestyle kind of ad. |
Thanks Don.
Any more suggestions? 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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zipfero
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 22:05 Post subject: |
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 22:16 Post subject: |
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Food companies are just targeting their product to the most profitable user base, world wide obesity is a bless for them!!
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Jul 2012 22:39 Post subject: |
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If we have to stop advertising everything someone, somewhere can't use for some reason or another, we'd have nothing, absolutely nothing. All would be forbidden. If you have a eating disorder or some shit, man up, this world shouldn't stop spinning cause you have a problem.
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 08:51 Post subject: Re: Is this argument valid? |
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| fisk wrote: | This is only for evaluation purposes, to see if you believe the argument is valid, it is not a representation of what I believe:
This image above was used by a hamburger restaurant, clearly displaying a person eating a hamburger. This is degrading towards everyone who are obese or overweight as it promotes eating. The problem with food commercials today is that many of them are outright revolting for those who have eating disorders, they tend to commercialize and exploit consumerism by promoting an "eating lifestyle". It puts those of us who are, I emphasize genetically and socially predisposed in a severe disadvantage to all other members of society. It is becoming tiresome to see these images in commercials and the general disapproval through genetic norms by society. A vast percentage of our population suffer from obesity and are greatly affected by these type of messages. I think we need to have a societal awareness against messages like these that promote an unhealthy lifestyle that discriminates against so many.
I suggest that food companies keep an as neutral and unbiased representation of nourishment as possible, and not using "lifestyle" as an argument to further promote obesity. Naturally this also applies to soft-drinks, and other edibles as well. We need a society that is fair to everyone, and does not exploit and take advantage of people.
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1. If you do not think that the argument is valid, then how so? Which of the premises do you disagree with and why?
2. Would the same argument be valid in another case, if so which and why? |
I know what you are doing here, I think. In terms of a technical point of view, is the argument "valid" as opposed to peoples opinions and feelings of the subject matter. Of course everyone here is going to try to argue this as ridiculous.
I was never in debate or schooled in this so I have no idea.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 09:06 Post subject: |
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I knew you'd get it, pistol.
I'm still curious though.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 11:21 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: |
I suggest that food companies keep an as neutral and unbiased representation of nourishment as possible, and not using "lifestyle" as an argument to further promote obesity. Naturally this also applies to soft-drinks, and other edibles as well. We need a society that is fair to everyone, and does not exploit and take advantage of people.
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1. If you do not think that the argument is valid, then how so? Which of the premises do you disagree with and why?
Nope, because I have yet to see a chain food company that is worried about 'nourishment' as priority #1, they are a company like any other...After a profit, nothing more. So for them to be 'balanced' of something they don't care about to start with is demanding things from them not related to how they do business to start with.
Like McDonald's founder said, He isn't in the business of burgers, hes in the business of investing high end real estate property on which to put the stores, funded by burgers.
I feel if you have a eating disorder, removing ads for food chains isn't going to solve it.
Just like removing cigarette ads from TV in the 80's didn't cure people's addiction to cigarettes...removing the ads did jack crap for 'reducing the number of people picking up smoking"
You have a condition and will fill it regardless..only difference now is they help nudge the money their way when you do it. No different than knowing people will by TV's and trying to nudge that money to your business by appealing to them. A 'there is a demand, we can fill it" business model.
2. Would the same argument be valid in another case, if so which and why?
Define 'another case' that's way to vague to answer...another case like this? any other case, as in any 'will X fix Y if its done"? not sure what this relates to
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Fri, 13th Jul 2012 11:23; edited 1 time in total
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fisk
Posts: 9145
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 11:30 Post subject: |
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I just see it as people being over sensitive to start with myself.
as I can guess/assume/wager, by personal experience of people I know..that 90% of people with 'eating disorders" don't have one..they are just pigs, blaming it on something they can convince people is uncontrollable, as then its 'ok since its a condition'
Like my aunt, who says she has "gland problems" that causes her to be overweight...it has nothing to do with staying in bed 14 hours a day while on her laptop, eating a jumbo size McDonald's meal with a shake before taking a nap for 6 hours...right?
Its a problem of mistaking the chicken for the egg..'eating problems' and obesity didn't come about as problems until around the same time the "sit your ass in the car and get food handed to you in under 30 seconds" showed up.
Its not the places, or the appearance of them that's the evil..its peoples lack of moderation of it that causes it. Then blame the food places for it. that's silly.
lack of self control of ones self, doesn't lend to placing blame on the ones your acquiring it from.
Much like alcohol, that bottle of Jim bean isn't evil...its the person that decides he needs 2 of them in one day that's at fault for it. its their CHOICE to go get the food...eating disorder or not, its a decision they make despite knowing they have a problem with food to start with.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 11:42 Post subject: |
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Say I had a crack addiction, can I blame the guy I goto and buy it from for my addiction? No...because hes not the one actively making my decision I need to see him...its my personal decision of "I need to go get some" and drive to his house myself.
Its not his fault that I have an addiction, its mine...I wouldn't have it if I didn't decide at one time to try it for myself.
sure sure, the crack dealer is being an 'enabler' by not denying to sell it to me...but you can only enable people that are there asking for it to start with. If they decide to quit, you can't be an 'enabler' to someone that decided to stop.
IF nothing else, they are simply appealing to peoples lack of self control knowing it will be there still even if they don't sell burgers to them...but the food places are NOT the reason these people have no self control to start with.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 12:16 Post subject: |
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Is this an attempt to Ronhrin the advertisement business? 
The problem is education. People are indoctrinated to be offended instead of understanding what they are seeing and making a choice. How do you advertise a hamburger in a different manner? When you enter a burger restaurant (I am on purpose not meaning McDonalds and all that crap, but proper burger restaurants)? When you sit in such a restaurants, do you actually not see people eating and having a laugh? Likewise, when people are smoking, do you not see them having fun? These are social activities, and go together hand in hand. If anything, education has failed to show why people should not smoke or eat burgers three times a day; it has failed to show that it is possible to have social experiences without looking for such excuses as lunch or cigarette break. Be angry at that. Be angry that there is no real motivation to change education - it is not economical, better have some fatties angry at the commercial itself, rather than the people who make it viable (the consumers who fill these restaurants every day).
Also, I have to wonder what is so insulting in seeing people eat (or smoke, or drink alcohol, or any activity that you do not like). If anything, you ought to be proud you see through the commercial and know better. I say proud, but really I wish to say "take pride in something that is so trivial, it should be common sense", but this is the world we live in, so take pride in it.
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 13:09 Post subject: |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 13:34 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | Is this an attempt to Ronhrin the advertisement business?
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No, not really. I'm just interested in seeing the reactions. I'm looking for cognitive dissonance here, ie. if an argument is valid to someone in this context, but not in another. To me personally there is no such thing as morality in commercials. If someone starts binging food because of a commercial that is their problem. However there are those that believe that, for moral reasons argue that the commercial industry is responsible for excessive smoking, eating, gender-equality, et cetera - the problem with this is of course that "Big brother" (someone elses view on morality) decides for the population what the population wants.
The argument to counter this of course is that the effects of media influence can be measured in people's behavior. For instance, if a certain advertisement for a certain product causes overweight, which leads to a resource encumbrance on society, then that because of this should be illegal. This is pretty much the argument that has been affecting the Tobacco-industry in some countries where smoking advertisement is severely controlled and regulated.
Now, if you are against such regulations, I think you should have to apply it to any context, whether it is about gender, gaming, tobacco, food, etc. - either you support the fact that someone else other than you decide (essentially) what is better for society, or you do not. Any deviation from one to the other in my opinion is irrational, illogical and, as I said: cognitive dissonance.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 13:52 Post subject: |
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This is a very complex issue, and your black & white look at things does not help. In a perfect world, no regulations whatsoever would be needed. By "perfect", I mean robotopia basically, as otherwise it is impossible. Are you for the banning of weapons? Why? Weapons do not commit crime, people do. But because people do not have the proper education, and thus cannot make the correct descision, you (or at least I) want the government, through regulation, to "do the right thing". Looking at things in black and white matter doesn't help.
Deciding on regulations is also not a simple task. I honestly believe that legalizing prostitution and some drugs would lower crime. But I also believe that banning weapons in USA will also lower crime rate. So it's not clear cut either way.
Of course, that said, in some cases, like the ones I mentioned above, common sense should come into play.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 13:56 Post subject: |
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I think each person is their own decision maker..if a society gets worse because of a problem, ideally my choice would be regulation of the people causing the problem.
I mean in the end regulation is regulation, but I see it as a difference of "regulation to stop the 'evils' of businesses", and 'regulation to stop the idiots with no control from dragging the rest of us down".
for example, I'd be all for legalizing shooting Windex into your eyeball while blowing a sea lion in public...long as people could do it responsibly 
but when the weaker willed go to an extreme with it, I personally say we should put regulations on the people...not the provider. as its the people causing the problem.
So in the end, to me, if a problem arises because of a service provided..to me, its NEVER the providers fault, as without clients, he'd have no business to start with.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 13:59 Post subject: |
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You know what annoyed me a lot yesterday? A female coworker told a story of her previous workplace, where they had a team meeting, and the boss said "We will have another meeting next week, and I expect to see all e female employees in bikinis!" jokingly. We then had a discussion if that was sexual harassment or not. My eyes widened when I heard people say "yep, it's very inappropriate and insulting" WHAT THE FUCK!? What is this world we live in?
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:03 Post subject: |
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But we are humans, with feelings and outward self appearance...no matter HOW much it needs to be said:
"you are too stupid/lack self control to be allowed to do this"..
we cant, as people hate to hear flaws of themselves, especially when society as a whole is telling them it. And they will throw fits trying to save face going "you cant tell me what I can and cant do!"
to me, yes...yes we can, your actions are dragging all of us down as a whole by your own selfish wants..so like if you are 350lbs, you are automatically put on a restraining order from any fast food place that sells 'jumbo meals'..
If you have a drinking problem, barred from any place that sells it.
etc etc.
But like I said, we cant do that..we might "hurt someones feelings" and thats more important somehow than mankind's well being on a whole..so we blame the faceless 'industries' for the problems we make using them.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:10 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | You know what annoyed me a lot yesterday? A female coworker told a story of her previous workplace, where they had a team meeting, and the boss said "We will have another meeting next week, and I expect to see all e female employees in bikinis!" jokingly. We then had a discussion if that was sexual harassment or not. My eyes widened when I heard people say "yep, it's very inappropriate and insulting" WHAT THE FUCK!? What is this world we live in? |
Why I truly believe, if you want to see how well the people of a nation are doing..pay attention to what they complain about...
the better off they are, the less and less "actual life and survival' problems they talk about, and more and more 'can you BELIEVE they had the nerve to tell me I wasn't pre-approved for a loan?" type problems they yell loudly about.
that would be one of the latter ones...
in some countries women would be HAPPY to have to come to work one day in a bikini just to have a job where they could keep their family from starving..
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:18 Post subject: |
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But what you said just now is horrible, and I wish not to have any part of it. Perhaps you misunderstood. I am not advocating sexual harassment (which is exactly what you describe), I am just fed up with the politically correct world we live in. Why can one not complement a woman of how beautiful she is in a completely platonic way, without it being considered sexual harassment? Why can one not joke about bikini without getting people to raise their eyebrow? What you describe is horrible. Anyone, of course, should have the option to go to work in bikini, but if someone is forced to against their will (or their will is forced due to no other choice), that is something I would never support. It is completely irrelevant to what I said.
I will also not make up excuses. I work in a high-tech company, and we are in a good economical status, if that is what you are implying. How does this little microcosmos project anything on the Israeli society in its entirety? We are the so called "1%".
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:22 Post subject: |
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I was agreeing. Saying they got offended over a cutesy flirting thing from the boss, he wasnt trying to grab thier ass, or invite them into the broom closet.
Saying that alll he said in a round about way"you are all cute, and I wouldnt mind seeing you in a bikini" is all it was.
Id be offended if he went "Now I expect all of you to show up in a bikini, other than Barbara over there, god KNOWS no one wants to see that!"
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:23 Post subject: |
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I would say, again, it depends heavily on the tone and manner said, even about Barbara. 
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:28 Post subject: |
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maybe we do disagree, unless it implies "Im going to have sex with you, eventually.. if you like it or not" i don't consider it 'sexual harassment" to me.
Social setting doesn't change the line crossed for "harassment" from my point of view.
If you wouldn't be upset by something someone said hanging out in a bar, someone in a cubicle saying it shouldn't be any different.
Sure the guy at the bar might be creepy, and your not interested...but they don't go "can you believe that guy up at the bar there sexually harassed me by saying I had a nice shape?" No they just let it go as "I have no interest in it".
Same rules should apply for the workplace in my eyes.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Jul 2012 14:30 Post subject: |
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As the old saying goes, that I heard from quite a few women jokingly:
"Whats the difference between flirting, and sexual harassment? if hes cute, its flirting, if not..its sexual harassment"
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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