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 Posted: Sun, 1st Apr 2012 19:36 Post subject: Opinions on how to engage pseudo scientific self help debate |
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So, after a long troubled relationship with most of my family, things have been slowly falling into place into what I consider a stable reciprocal situation, I have learned not to engage in discussions that are not directly pointed at me, I have adopted the position of complete and utter ignorance for nearly everything that goes around me in familiar interactions that I personally disagree with.
There's a problem with this attitude though, my father in law, which is a partially reasonable person, has fallen into the trap of this pseudo scientific self help notions, such as "The Secret" and "What the *bleep* do we Know", for those who are unaware, it's basically about the ludicrous belief that the action of thought can manipulate the physical reality around you without any action other than the act of "positive thinking" itself. As I've said I've learned not to actively engage in heated discussions, but 2 weeks ago, at the dinner table, he was insisting that we all watched the DVD of "The Secret" which he had secretly brought from home, I declined his offer and went up to my office, I thought everything was fine and no sensibilities were offended, then a few days later, I received an email from him with a youtube link to the secret saying the following.
| Quote: | | "I realized that you might be afraid of watching this with all of us, I'm sending you the link so you can watch it alone without anyone else knowing about it, everything that is addressed in here is scientifically proven, and as a man of science yourself you will not reject truth because you personally dislike what it implies, this is the only way that I know how to help you." |
I was mad by his tone and by the incorrect pseudo scientific notions he was implying, I even bothered to write him a 4 page email, explaining and debunking that nonsense, but I never sent it because I thought it could be improperly interpreted, specially because I already had some grave familiar problems with my mother in law and my own parents over religious and political debates, so now I always wait some time before replying to subjects when I know the people I'm replying to hold different views on the subject.
My question here is this, what would you do in such circumstance, where you have members of your family who actively belief in this new age crap and are constantly "pitying you" for how critical and judgemental you are, how do you engage in a discussion with this people without creating tensions but at the same time without continue to be seen as the silent person who's constantly critical and analytical standpoints make him sound like a sad antagonist?
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| Posted: Sun, 1st Apr 2012 20:02 Post subject: |
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 The Secret hahahaha
This is so ridiculous... I would laugh at him.
Seriously? Why the hell are you acting? Be yourself man, that's the real Secret. If they can't accpet you the way you are, well.... f# them.
If you wan't to keep that act up, well, then you just have to watch the Secret. Falling deeper into the act, maybe one day, the act becomes you. You may be a self brainwashed hull, but they will like you.
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zmed
Posts: 9234
Location: Orbanistan
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| Posted: Sun, 1st Apr 2012 20:08 Post subject: |
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But the Secret is REALZ! 
Anyways, there is nothing you can really do once someone is so far into this BS that they are actively trying to convert people. You will most likely never-ever going to change their minds. Sure, it happens sometimes, but if debunking retarded ideas like the Secret requires background knowledge, like psychological phenomena, such as confirmation bias, then no matter what you show them, they will dismiss it as "scientific conspiracy", or try to name-drop a few celebrities who believe this shit as proof for its validity.
The most you can hope for is to prevent the rest of the family from falling for it. Or if you're lucky, then it's just a passing phase. My mom also tried to push this crap on me a few years ago. I just ignored it, and now that fucking book is eating dust on one of the shelves in the house.
Thankfully this thing is pretty much designed to make money on the short term (for the writer that is). Once you read it, it sounds great and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Then once you never see a noticeable difference in your life no matter how much you wish for it (because that's what this is all about, wishful thinking), you will pretty much forget about it. Sure if asked about it the "victim" will swear up and down how great it is, but if they cannot show a single shred of evidence on how it helped them personally, than that's where the conversation will most likely stop.
If he keeps sending these videos and keeps pestering, all you can do is either ignore him, or engage him, but don't expect anything fruitful to come out of it. Wait and see and if he doesn't start driving Ferraris and have a trillion dollars dropped into his lap, just bring this little nugget of information to his attention if he ever starts to bring the next new-age fad for the family to see. Just remind him how unbelievably gullible he was about the Secret, how it turned out to be utter bullshit. Maybe he will have a bit of self reflection on it.
But remember: if you start arguing with him, do it in front of an audience (family) and be very sure you get your shit together. You won't convince him, but maybe you can prevent others from getting scammed.
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| Posted: Sun, 1st Apr 2012 20:17 Post subject: |
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| zmed wrote: | But the Secret is REALZ!
Anyways, there is nothing you can really do once someone is so far into this BS that they are actively trying to convert people. You will most likely never-ever going to change their minds. Sure, it happens sometimes, but if debunking retarded ideas like the Secret requires background knowledge, like psychological phenomena, such as confirmation bias, then no matter what you show them, they will dismiss it as "scientific conspiracy", or try to name-drop a few celebrities who believe this shit as proof for its validity.
The most you can hope for is to prevent the rest of the family from falling for it. Or if you're lucky, then it's just a passing phase. My mom also tried to push this crap on me a few years ago. I just ignored it, and now that fucking book is eating dust on one of the shelves in the house.
Thankfully this thing is pretty much designed to make money on the short term (for the writer that is). Once you read it, it sounds great and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Then once you never see a noticeable difference in your life no matter how much you wish for it (because that's what this is all about, wishful thinking), you will pretty much forget about it. Sure if asked about it the "victim" will swear up and down how great it is, but if they cannot show a single shred of evidence on how it helped them personally, than that's where the conversation will most likely stop.
If he keeps sending these videos and keeps pestering, all you can do is either ignore him, or engage him, but don't expect anything fruitful to come out of it. Wait and see and if he doesn't start driving Ferraris and have a trillion dollars dropped into his lap, just bring this little nugget of information to his attention if he ever starts to bring the next new-age fad for the family to see. Just remind him how unbelievably gullible he was about the Secret, how it turned out to be utter bullshit. Maybe he will have a bit of self reflection on it.
But remember: if you start arguing with him, do it in front of an audience (family) and be very sure you get your shit together. You won't convince him, but maybe you can prevent others from getting scammed. |
What enraged me the most was his tone, specially the "this is the only way I know how to help you" remark, as if I need of any sort of help, and from a motivational pseudo nonsense no less.
It's that, and on a parallel subject, how other people see me as an antagonist, because of my critical approach to debates.
Every time I engage in a conversation I can spot the reaction in peoples faces, "oh no, here he comes to debunk, analyze and criticize everything we're talking about".
Problem is, most of my family has no aptitude or interest for long analytical conversations, if some discussion looks good on the surface, they'll leave it at that, when they ask for my opinion and I say, well, it's not exactly like that because of this, this and this (on whatever subject) they all switch to that expression, "oh no, here he goes again".
For example, I had a cousin who died in a carjacking a few years ago, he was shoot 3 times to the chest and 1 to the face, he managed to survive a few hours in the hospital, he died a few minutes after my uncles and my other cousin arrived at the hospital, and the conversation was around the lines "he was waiting for us so he could die", when I confronted their remark with, "yeah, I'm sure that had he been decapitated instead of shoot, he would also wait for you to say your goodbyes, he survived a few hours because he had almost immediate medical assistance and he didn't bleed out at the scene, that was the only reason, not because he was waiting for you or anyone else", in their eyes, I was deeply offensive for refuting something that for them was a proven unquestionable fact that they still believe to this day.
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zmed
Posts: 9234
Location: Orbanistan
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| Posted: Sun, 1st Apr 2012 20:32 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | What enraged me the most was his tone, specially the "this is the only way I know how to help you" remark.
It's that, and on a parallel subject, how other people see me as an antagonist, because of my critical approach to debates.
Every time I engage in a conversation I can spot the reaction in peoples faces, "oh no, here he comes to debunk, analyze and criticize everything we're talking about". |
Against those remarks, all you can do is call his attention to his condescending tone and hope for an improvement. Let him know that if he cannot treat you as a grown man he can fuck off. Not literally of course, just hint at it. 
Thankfully I live in a somewhat skeptical family (my dad couldn't give a fuck, my brother seem to like James Randi, which is a start). Pretty much my mom is the only one who buys into pseudo-science, but she keeps it to herself. I guess I can only imagine what those conversations feel like. 
Maybe instead of arguing against concrete points, you can instead try to inject critical thinking into other discourses. Instead of trying to change what they think, try changing how they think. The rest will follow naturally. Sounds incerdibly hard, and without personally experience, I can only imagine how hard it can really be. But can't think of a better way to tackle the situation.
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zmed
Posts: 9234
Location: Orbanistan
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Apr 2012 01:01 Post subject: |
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Nhiumewyn
Good for you for writting the letter and not sending it. Glad to hear the home situation has improved. Thats some work on your part.
You don't have to watch anything you don't want too. And you don't have to explain yourself either overly, and debate why you don't want to watch it.
I like the broken record technique and would stick to "I don't want to" and "It's not for me" other then that just let them say whatever they want. The trick is you can let them 'bait you'
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Apr 2012 01:36 Post subject: |
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| pistolshrimp wrote: | Nhiumewyn
Good for you for writting the letter and not sending it. Glad to hear the home situation has improved. Thats some work on your part.
You don't have to watch anything you don't want too. And you don't have to explain yourself either overly, and debate why you don't want to watch it.
I like the broken record technique and would stick to "I don't want to" and "It's not for me" other then that just let them say whatever they want. The trick is you can let them 'bait you' |
That's what I've been doing for the most part, but at times I'm really affected by the condescending look that people give me, for example, when they're debating whatever subject around me, and when they notice I'm paying attention (ie: they perceive a possibility of me jumping into the conversation), they either change the subject or lower the tone of the conversation to make it more private.
On the surface, I don't have anything to do with whatever subjects other people speak about and how wrong or incoherent they are, but the treatment and look that I receive from them, even without saying a single word, is highly frustrating, special when it's perfectly noticeable that they will welcome everyone else's opinions, other than my honest analytical critique, my wife has a distant cousin which is into Satanism, he had a very long period of his life that he was in street gangs and declared himself as a neo Nazi, his input in discussions is more welcomed than my own, and I sincerely cannot understand why.
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Apr 2012 06:11 Post subject: |
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I second everything zmed said.
But if you want any significant change you're gonna have to make concessions, manipulate them a bit, slightly deviate from your ways and show some interest.
Dont try to directly win them over to your views. There is no way to make them let go off their need for spiritual answers.
Their twisted ways of seeing the world makes them think you're arrogant and proselytizing.
They automatically lock down at the sight of your mouth opening, as you did notice from their facial expressions.
First of all, show some sincere interest in their bullshit, try to empathize and seriously argue within the borders of their limited views.
Not arguing against them, just some inquisitve inquiry. (positive undertones)
Dont take it too far, just let them know that you're considering it. The carrot on a stick thing.
If you do this for a while they'll start to listen to you again and you can subliminally sneak in some critical thinking into your debates.
If you talk about sciency stuff use more of that:
- use more "I believe" "maybe" "it could be" "probability"
- you can quickly adjust to new views, cause its the sciency thing to do
- always say evidence/theory instead of proof/fact
- entwine your science with their new age crap, make connections, reinforce them, consider things
- simply talk about what fascinates you
- mimic Neil deGrasse Tyson
- the we're made of supernova stardust thing always works
I really suggest you should bestow this book upon your father in law.
Its a cunning and devious little piece of literature:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Self-Aware-Universe-Amit-Goswami/dp/0874777984/
(read the first customer review)
You might notice slight parallels to "The Secret"
It may reinforce his beliefs after reading that, but it will also plant a lot of scientific reasoning/knowledge through the back door.
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 14:50 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | zmed wrote: | But the Secret is REALZ!
Anyways, there is nothing you can really do once someone is so far into this BS that they are actively trying to convert people. You will most likely never-ever going to change their minds. Sure, it happens sometimes, but if debunking retarded ideas like the Secret requires background knowledge, like psychological phenomena, such as confirmation bias, then no matter what you show them, they will dismiss it as "scientific conspiracy", or try to name-drop a few celebrities who believe this shit as proof for its validity.
The most you can hope for is to prevent the rest of the family from falling for it. Or if you're lucky, then it's just a passing phase. My mom also tried to push this crap on me a few years ago. I just ignored it, and now that fucking book is eating dust on one of the shelves in the house.
Thankfully this thing is pretty much designed to make money on the short term (for the writer that is). Once you read it, it sounds great and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Then once you never see a noticeable difference in your life no matter how much you wish for it (because that's what this is all about, wishful thinking), you will pretty much forget about it. Sure if asked about it the "victim" will swear up and down how great it is, but if they cannot show a single shred of evidence on how it helped them personally, than that's where the conversation will most likely stop.
If he keeps sending these videos and keeps pestering, all you can do is either ignore him, or engage him, but don't expect anything fruitful to come out of it. Wait and see and if he doesn't start driving Ferraris and have a trillion dollars dropped into his lap, just bring this little nugget of information to his attention if he ever starts to bring the next new-age fad for the family to see. Just remind him how unbelievably gullible he was about the Secret, how it turned out to be utter bullshit. Maybe he will have a bit of self reflection on it.
But remember: if you start arguing with him, do it in front of an audience (family) and be very sure you get your shit together. You won't convince him, but maybe you can prevent others from getting scammed. |
What enraged me the most was his tone, specially the "this is the only way I know how to help you" remark, as if I need of any sort of help, and from a motivational pseudo nonsense no less.
It's that, and on a parallel subject, how other people see me as an antagonist, because of my critical approach to debates.
Every time I engage in a conversation I can spot the reaction in peoples faces, "oh no, here he comes to debunk, analyze and criticize everything we're talking about".
Problem is, most of my family has no aptitude or interest for long analytical conversations, if some discussion looks good on the surface, they'll leave it at that, when they ask for my opinion and I say, well, it's not exactly like that because of this, this and this (on whatever subject) they all switch to that expression, "oh no, here he goes again".
For example, I had a cousin who died in a carjacking a few years ago, he was shoot 3 times to the chest and 1 to the face, he managed to survive a few hours in the hospital, he died a few minutes after my uncles and my other cousin arrived at the hospital, and the conversation was around the lines "he was waiting for us so he could die", when I confronted their remark with, "yeah, I'm sure that had he been decapitated instead of shoot, he would also wait for you to say your goodbyes, he survived a few hours because he had almost immediate medical assistance and he didn't bleed out at the scene, that was the only reason, not because he was waiting for you or anyone else", in their eyes, I was deeply offensive for refuting something that for them was a proven unquestionable fact that they still believe to this day. |
http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19243&highlight=
You really gone batshit crazy, huh?
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 01:19 Post subject: |
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i thought this was an aprils fools post. It seems it wasnt. The Secret *shudders*
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 01:25 Post subject: |
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| wizarD. wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | zmed wrote: | But the Secret is REALZ!
Anyways, there is nothing you can really do once someone is so far into this BS that they are actively trying to convert people. You will most likely never-ever going to change their minds. Sure, it happens sometimes, but if debunking retarded ideas like the Secret requires background knowledge, like psychological phenomena, such as confirmation bias, then no matter what you show them, they will dismiss it as "scientific conspiracy", or try to name-drop a few celebrities who believe this shit as proof for its validity.
The most you can hope for is to prevent the rest of the family from falling for it. Or if you're lucky, then it's just a passing phase. My mom also tried to push this crap on me a few years ago. I just ignored it, and now that fucking book is eating dust on one of the shelves in the house.
Thankfully this thing is pretty much designed to make money on the short term (for the writer that is). Once you read it, it sounds great and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. Then once you never see a noticeable difference in your life no matter how much you wish for it (because that's what this is all about, wishful thinking), you will pretty much forget about it. Sure if asked about it the "victim" will swear up and down how great it is, but if they cannot show a single shred of evidence on how it helped them personally, than that's where the conversation will most likely stop.
If he keeps sending these videos and keeps pestering, all you can do is either ignore him, or engage him, but don't expect anything fruitful to come out of it. Wait and see and if he doesn't start driving Ferraris and have a trillion dollars dropped into his lap, just bring this little nugget of information to his attention if he ever starts to bring the next new-age fad for the family to see. Just remind him how unbelievably gullible he was about the Secret, how it turned out to be utter bullshit. Maybe he will have a bit of self reflection on it.
But remember: if you start arguing with him, do it in front of an audience (family) and be very sure you get your shit together. You won't convince him, but maybe you can prevent others from getting scammed. |
What enraged me the most was his tone, specially the "this is the only way I know how to help you" remark, as if I need of any sort of help, and from a motivational pseudo nonsense no less.
It's that, and on a parallel subject, how other people see me as an antagonist, because of my critical approach to debates.
Every time I engage in a conversation I can spot the reaction in peoples faces, "oh no, here he comes to debunk, analyze and criticize everything we're talking about".
Problem is, most of my family has no aptitude or interest for long analytical conversations, if some discussion looks good on the surface, they'll leave it at that, when they ask for my opinion and I say, well, it's not exactly like that because of this, this and this (on whatever subject) they all switch to that expression, "oh no, here he goes again".
For example, I had a cousin who died in a carjacking a few years ago, he was shoot 3 times to the chest and 1 to the face, he managed to survive a few hours in the hospital, he died a few minutes after my uncles and my other cousin arrived at the hospital, and the conversation was around the lines "he was waiting for us so he could die", when I confronted their remark with, "yeah, I'm sure that had he been decapitated instead of shoot, he would also wait for you to say your goodbyes, he survived a few hours because he had almost immediate medical assistance and he didn't bleed out at the scene, that was the only reason, not because he was waiting for you or anyone else", in their eyes, I was deeply offensive for refuting something that for them was a proven unquestionable fact that they still believe to this day. |
http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19243&highlight=
You really gone batshit crazy, huh? |
Well, I'm a very different person now than I was back then, my family was mostly used to my emphatic side as opposed to my logical side, so when I replied in such a form, they were offended by it.
I question myself several times if I was appropriate or not, if they had any valid reason to be angry, what I said was not insensitive or offensive in any way, if they want to parade their offended sensibilities for the rest of their lives for me pointing out a fact. I don't care either way.
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 08:35 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: |
Well, I'm a very different person now than I was back then, my family was mostly used to my emphatic side as opposed to my logical side, so when I replied in such a form, they were offended by it.
I question myself several times if I was appropriate or not, if they had any valid reason to be angry, what I said was not insensitive or offensive in any way, if they want to parade their offended sensibilities for the rest of their lives for me pointing out a fact. I don't care either way. |
Well that's the problem.
Sure you could have approached this in a certain manner. Being polite and saying that you don't believe that nonsense is possible. But you need to be aware that no matter what you say, these type of ppl will still believe in that nonsense.
So there are 2 ways you could have approached this.
1.st is the way I did it with my idiotic friend who is a major homophobe (thus the idioti part), and a biiiig religious person (not that he practice what he preaches, he's your typical hypocrite idiot who doesn't question anything). I put in front of him logical reasons to why I don't believe in god, and why he should question the existence of it, and his response in the end (after few hours) was: you'll see in the end, when you die 
So what did I do? I let go. I said (to myself ofc, not to his face), you're an uneducated idiot who is afraid of questioning the things around you. I don't want to debate about this with him ever. And I don't. He lives his hypocrite life, I live mine. All is well. We see each other from time to time, and talk about random stuff.
Then there's your way. Were you'll insist on your points until someone is convinced. Which is a way to spread the message, but is often seen as insensitive, and militant. You just don't back down, and want others to agree with you no matter what. It will bug you until they say: yes I see the light now! I was so ignorant, thank you for enlighting me!
And that last part about death. There is some thing that's called being tactical and having empathy.
I don't think you have empathy, you see it as a weakness. I think that this behavior boarders with sociopathy.
Sure, your cousin didn't wait for them to 'say goodbye', medically, physically or otherwise. He just lasted that long, and they happened to see him before he passed away.
But, as I've said, when things like this happen, ppl have empathy. Even tho you don't mean it, the normal, humane response would be to shut up, and say something along: he's in a better place, or It's sad, but at least he's not suffering, or something comforting. Not to say to grieving parents: well he's dead, what's for lunch?
Ppl are not Vulcans. We use logic, but we don't live strictly by it. It's not a flaw, it's our strength. The fact that you have kindness, that you have all those things makes us human. You may not like it, but it's what got us this far. It's evolution 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 15:07 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: |
Well, I'm a very different person now than I was back then, my family was mostly used to my emphatic side as opposed to my logical side, so when I replied in such a form, they were offended by it.
I question myself several times if I was appropriate or not, if they had any valid reason to be angry, what I said was not insensitive or offensive in any way, if they want to parade their offended sensibilities for the rest of their lives for me pointing out a fact. I don't care either way. |
Well that's the problem.
Sure you could have approached this in a certain manner. Being polite and saying that you don't believe that nonsense is possible. But you need to be aware that no matter what you say, these type of ppl will still believe in that nonsense.
So there are 2 ways you could have approached this.
1.st is the way I did it with my idiotic friend who is a major homophobe (thus the idioti part), and a biiiig religious person (not that he practice what he preaches, he's your typical hypocrite idiot who doesn't question anything). I put in front of him logical reasons to why I don't believe in god, and why he should question the existence of it, and his response in the end (after few hours) was: you'll see in the end, when you die
So what did I do? I let go. I said (to myself ofc, not to his face), you're an uneducated idiot who is afraid of questioning the things around you. I don't want to debate about this with him ever. And I don't. He lives his hypocrite life, I live mine. All is well. We see each other from time to time, and talk about random stuff.
Then there's your way. Were you'll insist on your points until someone is convinced. Which is a way to spread the message, but is often seen as insensitive, and militant. You just don't back down, and want others to agree with you no matter what. It will bug you until they say: yes I see the light now! I was so ignorant, thank you for enlighting me!
And that last part about death. There is some thing that's called being tactical and having empathy.
I don't think you have empathy, you see it as a weakness. I think that this behavior boarders with sociopathy.
Sure, your cousin didn't wait for them to 'say goodbye', medically, physically or otherwise. He just lasted that long, and they happened to see him before he passed away.
But, as I've said, when things like this happen, ppl have empathy. Even tho you don't mean it, the normal, humane response would be to shut up, and say something along: he's in a better place, or It's sad, but at least he's not suffering, or something comforting. Not to say to grieving parents: well he's dead, what's for lunch?
Ppl are not Vulcans. We use logic, but we don't live strictly by it. It's not a flaw, it's our strength. The fact that you have kindness, that you have all those things makes us human. You may not like it, but it's what got us this far. It's evolution |
There is a reason why I act in a militant manner, I don't admit that someone has expectations over me, or that I'm required to act in conformity with the falsities of others.
I do have empathy, but I perceive it as the main facilitator of perpetuating illogical behavior or inconsistent ideals.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 16:21 Post subject: |
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Truth is everyone are merely uttering founded speculatiion, whether they are scientists or not. Regardless of how many scientific studies are done in a field or another, every scientist knows that theories get disproven over and over and over. In fifty years time they will be calling current theories thin, or unfounded. In five hundred years time (if mankind even exists then) it will be completely different.
With my seven years of studies at the university I came in thinking that science was the major solution to everything, it was based on a simple solution: what you are able to sense can be broken down and studied and tried, and after repeating this for enough times to verify it went from a hypothesis to a theory, and given enough research into that theory it would become either a commonly used model or method of analysis, or a defacto standard in a field for understanding something.
Studying at three different universities in Sweden I have come to realize that a lot of this is merely a kind of ideal. Individuals in different institutes have become so blasé with their research, they have become so self-obsessed that they no longer are able to do what I find is the key role of a scientist: to criticise and to always look for an exception. So much of science is perpetuated by "scientists" that merely are 'believers'. You see conflicts between different fields (social psychology and psychology-researches feud like if it's kindergarten all over again) - if you read the forums that professors, doctors etc. post on you will discover just how subjective it all is, and how easy it is for these so-called "experts" to throw their title around as if anything they say is golden just because they have a certain title.
When you bring economics into the question it becomes even more problematic, obviously scientists are dependent on funding, and there always are some areas that get more funding. In Sweden you get funding pretty much immediately if you are doing some kind of gender based studies. The same thing applies to certain branches of physics, etc. etc. - and from both an outside and inside perspective there are so many foundations in science that purely is based on internal logical consistency, ie. a system that works very well and proves itself based on its own components - in argumentation this essentially is otherwise known as a circular argument (ok, I'm exaggerating slightly). The more I've studied the more I have realized how little I know, and how my grand view of science more and more became an always critical, always sceptic approach on everything that people try to sell me, be it raving lunatic new agers that see invisible elephants or some "scientist" that just proved that the earth likely will end in 2043 given "current" amounts of resource expenditure.
When it all boils down to it, the things science can prove are often very very narrow, and conditional, and those who draw bigger conclusions from such perspectives tend to be full of themselves, and most likely wrong. I have yet to come across anyone with a master's degree, doctor's degree etc. who wasn't either very unsure of their field (but still curious and sceptical) or extremely determined that they had the right answer, and went through great lengths to disprove others with very good argumentation, but essentially sounding (in my ears) like a druggie high on his own product.
So, when someone says to me "science is awesome" I agree, but for completely different reasons. Science to me is always asking questions and never about coming to closed conclusions, it is about possibilities and likelihood and never about a determined states or objective truths. Those who claim any field of science will give you answers are essentially in the same state of mind as religious people. Science can be as much of a cop out and easy way out of "troubling questions" as anything else.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 16:37 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | There is a reason why I act in a militant manner, I don't admit that someone has expectations over me, or that I'm required to act in conformity with the falsities of others.
I do have empathy, but I perceive it as the main facilitator of perpetuating illogical behavior or inconsistent ideals. |
Well, I understand, and you shouldn't stay silent over someones stupidity. But you need to know when to choose your battles.
Sometimes it's easier to just say: fuck it, and continue with your life...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 17:35 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | Truth is everyone are merely uttering founded speculatiion, whether they are scientists or not. Regardless of how many scientific studies are done in a field or another, every scientist knows that theories get disproven over and over and over. In fifty years time they will be calling current theories thin, or unfounded. In five hundred years time (if mankind even exists then) it will be completely different.
With my seven years of studies at the university I came in thinking that science was the major solution to everything, it was based on a simple solution: what you are able to sense can be broken down and studied and tried, and after repeating this for enough times to verify it went from a hypothesis to a theory, and given enough research into that theory it would become either a commonly used model or method of analysis, or a defacto standard in a field for understanding something.
Studying at three different universities in Sweden I have come to realize that a lot of this is merely a kind of ideal. Individuals in different institutes have become so blasé with their research, they have become so self-obsessed that they no longer are able to do what I find is the key role of a scientist: to criticise and to always look for an exception. So much of science is perpetuated by "scientists" that merely are 'believers'. You see conflicts between different fields (social psychology and psychology-researches feud like if it's kindergarten all over again) - if you read the forums that professors, doctors etc. post on you will discover just how subjective it all is, and how easy it is for these so-called "experts" to throw their title around as if anything they say is golden just because they have a certain title.
When you bring economics into the question it becomes even more problematic, obviously scientists are dependent on funding, and there always are some areas that get more funding. In Sweden you get funding pretty much immediately if you are doing some kind of gender based studies. The same thing applies to certain branches of physics, etc. etc. - and from both an outside and inside perspective there are so many foundations in science that purely is based on internal logical consistency, ie. a system that works very well and proves itself based on its own components - in argumentation this essentially is otherwise known as a circular argument (ok, I'm exaggerating slightly). The more I've studied the more I have realized how little I know, and how my grand view of science more and more became an always critical, always sceptic approach on everything that people try to sell me, be it raving lunatic new agers that see invisible elephants or some "scientist" that just proved that the earth likely will end in 2043 given "current" amounts of resource expenditure.
When it all boils down to it, the things science can prove are often very very narrow, and conditional, and those who draw bigger conclusions from such perspectives tend to be full of themselves, and most likely wrong. I have yet to come across anyone with a master's degree, doctor's degree etc. who wasn't either very unsure of their field (but still curious and sceptical) or extremely determined that they had the right answer, and went through great lengths to disprove others with very good argumentation, but essentially sounding (in my ears) like a druggie high on his own product.
So, when someone says to me "science is awesome" I agree, but for completely different reasons. Science to me is always asking questions and never about coming to closed conclusions, it is about possibilities and likelihood and never about a determined states or objective truths. Those who claim any field of science will give you answers are essentially in the same state of mind as religious people. Science can be as much of a cop out and easy way out of "troubling questions" as anything else. |
This is exactly my position, not only with regards to scientific premises, but all sort of ideological or sociological constructs.
My actions and my stances in life are in absolute accordance with what you just posted.
I would say that skepticism is the foundation of all my positions, and that is perhaps the main reason why I'm perceived as such a conflictive individual. For my critique and dissection of the ideals of others is ever present in all manifestations of my behavior and thought.
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 17:37 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | There is a reason why I act in a militant manner, I don't admit that someone has expectations over me, or that I'm required to act in conformity with the falsities of others.
I do have empathy, but I perceive it as the main facilitator of perpetuating illogical behavior or inconsistent ideals. |
Well, I understand, and you shouldn't stay silent over someones stupidity. But you need to know when to choose your battles.
Sometimes it's easier to just say: fuck it, and continue with your life... |
And what defines your criteria of which battles ought to be fought and which should I resign myself?
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 18:54 Post subject: |
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Well when you have your family involved it's best not to go into conflict situations imo.
I would just say to my uncle, if he sent me that video, that he knows my stance on these kinds of things and that he shouldn't try to persuade me into watching something I know isn't true. And that I'd like if he would respect my opinion on this, and that I'm not going to try to impose my views on him, so he shouldn't impose his on mine.
And that's it. Not going into any lengthy arguments why you think he's wrong. He's just gonna ignore that anyways.
Now, when you can argue with someone? With friends or stupid ppl  I love when some idiot I've just met says some really stupid thing xD Whether it concerns my area of expertise (physics), or ridiculous claims like: you can find water with dowsing, or that water has memory or some idiotic claim like that
I like to show stupid ppl that they are stupid. I hope that somehow they will benefit from that and try to educate themselves before making idiotic claims ^^
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 19:09 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | Well when you have your family involved it's best not to go into conflict situations imo.
I would just say to my uncle, if he sent me that video, that he knows my stance on these kinds of things and that he shouldn't try to persuade me into watching something I know isn't true. And that I'd like if he would respect my opinion on this, and that I'm not going to try to impose my views on him, so he shouldn't impose his on mine.
And that's it. Not going into any lengthy arguments why you think he's wrong. He's just gonna ignore that anyways.
Now, when you can argue with someone? With friends or stupid ppl I love when some idiot I've just met says some really stupid thing xD Whether it concerns my area of expertise (physics), or ridiculous claims like: you can find water with dowsing, or that water has memory or some idiotic claim like that
I like to show stupid ppl that they are stupid. I hope that somehow they will benefit from that and try to educate themselves before making idiotic claims ^^ |
Years ago, when my cousin died, I would've agreed with you, presently I don't, there is no reason why I ought to exempt certain people from sharing absurdities with me and remain silent. Specially considering that my uncles have nothing in common with me in any way shape or form.
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 20:12 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | Well when you have your family involved it's best not to go into conflict situations imo.
I would just say to my uncle, if he sent me that video, that he knows my stance on these kinds of things and that he shouldn't try to persuade me into watching something I know isn't true. And that I'd like if he would respect my opinion on this, and that I'm not going to try to impose my views on him, so he shouldn't impose his on mine.
And that's it. Not going into any lengthy arguments why you think he's wrong. He's just gonna ignore that anyways.
Now, when you can argue with someone? With friends or stupid ppl I love when some idiot I've just met says some really stupid thing xD Whether it concerns my area of expertise (physics), or ridiculous claims like: you can find water with dowsing, or that water has memory or some idiotic claim like that
I like to show stupid ppl that they are stupid. I hope that somehow they will benefit from that and try to educate themselves before making idiotic claims ^^ |
Years ago, when my cousin died, I would've agreed with you, presently I don't, there is no reason why I ought to exempt certain people from sharing absurdities with me and remain silent. Specially considering that my uncles have nothing in common with me in any way shape or form. |
I'm just saying what most ppl would do in such circumstances, you know empathy and stuff...
But you do not have empathy, as it's a sign of 'weakness'... And if you're fine with it, than I'm fine with it, I couldn't care less, you're just a person on an internet forum I've never met
If I knew you in RL, I'd probably stay away from you
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 20:21 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | Well when you have your family involved it's best not to go into conflict situations imo.
I would just say to my uncle, if he sent me that video, that he knows my stance on these kinds of things and that he shouldn't try to persuade me into watching something I know isn't true. And that I'd like if he would respect my opinion on this, and that I'm not going to try to impose my views on him, so he shouldn't impose his on mine.
And that's it. Not going into any lengthy arguments why you think he's wrong. He's just gonna ignore that anyways.
Now, when you can argue with someone? With friends or stupid ppl I love when some idiot I've just met says some really stupid thing xD Whether it concerns my area of expertise (physics), or ridiculous claims like: you can find water with dowsing, or that water has memory or some idiotic claim like that
I like to show stupid ppl that they are stupid. I hope that somehow they will benefit from that and try to educate themselves before making idiotic claims ^^ |
Years ago, when my cousin died, I would've agreed with you, presently I don't, there is no reason why I ought to exempt certain people from sharing absurdities with me and remain silent. Specially considering that my uncles have nothing in common with me in any way shape or form. |
I'm just saying what most ppl would do in such circumstances, you know empathy and stuff...
But you do not have empathy, as it's a sign of 'weakness'... And if you're fine with it, than I'm fine with it, I couldn't care less, you're just a person on an internet forum I've never met
If I knew you in RL, I'd probably stay away from you |
I presume you confuse empathy, with absolute altruism.
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