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 Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 11:52 Post subject: Cheating on entry exams |
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So on one 'science' based portal, one women started the thread about the kids in highschool cheating on their final exams, which have, in Croatia, replaced the uni entry exams (imo a total bullshit but whatever).
In the thread she said that there were kids on forums that bragged how they cheated on their exams and so, and that the police should have been involved with that.
I commented and said that I think that calling the police is kinda radical. I said that I am for sanctions against those who cheat, since it's essentially robbing others the places on university, but I still don't think that they should be processed like some kind of criminals.
They cheated, and they should be punished, maybe with being somehow disqualified, but having a criminal record? :\
Anyways, bunch of other scientists said that the police should be involved since it can be seen as robbing, since the kid who might have gotten into without paying, now has to pay etc. (not to mention I got down voted as hell xD)
What do you guys think? Is cheating on entry exams, and on exams in general, a capital offense?
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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chiv
Posts: 27530
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 12:02 Post subject: |
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depends. like what was said in your post, if money is involved (such as cheaters getting in without paying) then yeah.. that is not only cheating for financial gain (or other gains, if places are restricted) but is also denying others a fair chance at that reward, so yeah thats pretty criminal, but its at the small end... any costs incurred in having to fix things (processes such as shifting any awards to the next person, etc... its not done quickly or for free...) should definately be incurred by the cheater... and since that is essentially fraud, they should get a mark on their record. whether things should be taken further would depend on the situations own merits.
but if the cheating is just for a grade and doesnt effect anyone else, then no, but they definately should be expelled, and go on some kind of registry so that other schools know not to allow him admission.
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 12:32 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 22:00; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 12:41 Post subject: |
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Cheaters can get nice rewards if they're not caught.
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 13:01 Post subject: |
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Its no wonder people cheat in a system that is so obsessed with grades and scorekeeping.
One cannot even study in peace anymore, it a pure obstacle course - entry tests, IQ tests, assessments, personal discussions and then exam after exam every few weeks. All this is embedded in a score keeping/grading system thats like a degenerated version of a videogame. And then the monetary questions, I wont even get into this.
And as Prefetian said, if you dont get caught you have only vast advantages.
In biological terms, cheating is an ESS (evolutionary stable strategy) in the natural habitat of higher education.
This perverted system does not deserve any better.
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chiv
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 13:13 Post subject: |
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support for cheating and cheaters. dunno why i expected any less here 
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deelix
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Sin317
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 13:34 Post subject: |
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and they can't connect over 3g ?
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 13:39 Post subject: |
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Some people will rather spend hours upon hours finding ways to cheat rather than study and learn.... ^_^
There is no system that's unbreakable.
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 13:41 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 22:00; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 14:29 Post subject: |
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As far as final exams go (we have the same system in regards to university entry, although if I am not mistaken, entry exams are also there if needed), I don't think cheating should leave a permanent mark. If this affects one's ability to continue studying, there's a good chance of ruining someone's hopes for the future right from the start.
At the end of high school, you'd be 18-19 years old and likely to make some stupid mistakes. You shouldn't be doomed for life because of it. Let them wisen up and do better next time.
Cheating in high school, even for the final exams, is not really that necessary, in my opinion.
In higher education it seems more acceptable due to sheer volume of data you have to cram into your head. Thankfully the exams seem to be evolving in universities, to be more sensible. Some allow limited (sometimes even all) source material, some are structured in a way that focus more on your general understanding of the subject, rather than copy pasting theorems/equations etc symbol by symbol onto paper. There's is still plenty of memorising to do, but at least you don't need to write hundreds of pages of text into your memory so often 
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deelix
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tw1st
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Aeon
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 15:07 Post subject: |
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| tw1st wrote: | I cheated a few times while in college. I had to, it's not like I didn't study or didn't give a shit. Some of the questions on our exams were insanely difficult and just to much to study for and being able to maintain a normal life.
Fuck it though, it got me where I am today and I have no guilt about it.
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This.
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 16:29 Post subject: |
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Does this then explain the huge amount of incompetent people found in our society everywhere ? People who are qualified but actually cheated to get their qualifications then make mistakes because they do not really know what they pretend to know ? Sort of reminds me of the mafia selling tainted meat which then ends up in the bellies of their own children. Or the bankers and politicians transferring all the wealth from the poor and middle class to themselves and so destroying the society they themselves live in.
Per Ardua Ad Astra
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Morphineus
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 16:38 Post subject: |
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Usually exams be it entry or not are quite stupid. So yeh cheat away if you have all intentions to actually know/learn your material.
If not... well then it's a waste of time since getting in will result into nothing.
I used exam questions+answer pretty much after I studied the material. Helps a lot to go over everything in a quick and efficient way.
Besides I stand by Tyson's tweet, most of the time they pay way too much attention on grades which in most cases doesn't reflect anything than someone cramming it into it's memory to lose it in a fairly quick time. Passing an exam is not knowing your material. And in all honesty a bad day/other circumstances or just a foolish night without studying shouldn't hold back people.
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Morphineus
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 16:40 Post subject: |
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| Anticasper wrote: | | Does this then explain the huge amount of incompetent people found in our society everywhere ? People who are qualified but actually cheated to get their qualifications then make mistakes because they do not really know what they pretend to know ? Sort of reminds me of the mafia selling tainted meat which then ends up in the bellies of their own children. Or the bankers and politicians transferring all the wealth from the poor and middle class to themselves and so destroying the society they themselves live in. |
I'd say that's more to do with people having no interest/passion in the field. Most can pass exams by just cramming it in for a few days. That doesn't tell you if you are qualified at all.
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Frant
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 16:44 Post subject: |
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The tragedy is that cheaters later go out into the society with a certain mentality as well as lack of skills/knowledge that the exams are there to measure. From a personal standpoint it might seem a good idea: take no chances, make sure you get good grades so you can get easily get a job. The problems will show up when this student suddenly look like a hack that can't walk the walk because of cheating in school.
But then again, most of the stuff you learn in school aren't actually used in the real world..
It's just unfair against the students that worked day and night to prepare for the exam and get B's or similar when the cheaters get all A's.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 16:47 Post subject: |
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I know a lot of ppl who are now finishing uni, and have finished it, who cheated. I know tons of ppl whom I let cheat off me.
And I've always said: it's you who is hurting yourself, since you're robbing yourself from some bits and pieces of knowledge.
I don't encourage it, but it's kinda inevitable. And there are tons of useless information you learn in high school and in uni.
I kinda think that the problem in all this is that ppl are not encouraged to learn because of knowledge. They learn to get a degree and then find a job. And in most cases, a degree in the field you studied, won't help you in your job.
My sister learned tons of math (since she went to study mathematics), and in the end she isn't using any of it. She did benefit some from programming, but now she is a web designer (well, technically she's 'user experience specialist' whatever that is, she codes and makes web stuff).
As Niel deGrasse Tyson said, there is something fundamentally wrong with our school system. But must we punish ppl, or change the faulty system? When has repression ever done anything good?
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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tw1st
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 17:37 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | The tragedy is that cheaters later go out into the society with a certain mentality as well as lack of skills/knowledge that the exams are there to measure. From a personal standpoint it might seem a good idea: take no chances, make sure you get good grades so you can get easily get a job. The problems will show up when this student suddenly look like a hack that can't walk the walk because of cheating in school.
But then again, most of the stuff you learn in school aren't actually used in the real world..
It's just unfair against the students that worked day and night to prepare for the exam and get B's or similar when the cheaters get all A's. |
This is precisely it! I have used almost nothing that I have learned at the uni at my current job. Almost everything I do now, was learned at work, either through trial and error or just figuring stuff out on my own.
School can prepare you for a job, but in the field of IT or networking things are constantly changing and evolving anyway, so things you learn quickly become obsolete.
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spankie
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Apr 2013 20:46 Post subject: |
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Never cheated, never needed to.
Cheating on an entry exam or exit exam is retarded. If you are too dumb to successfully take an entry exam, I am fairly sure you will not enjoy nor finish your education.
What is more baffling, is that parents are proud of such behaviour of their kids. I mean, everybody probably cheats somewhere in their life, but as a parent, you should not be enforcing such behaviour.
And idd, you learn a lot of skills on the job, but education probably has some value, why else does it exist?...
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ixigia
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| Posted: Wed, 24th Apr 2013 01:13 Post subject: |
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Yup, cheating on entry exams not only is despicable, but also quite dumb since those have the purpose of letting you know whether the course is suitable for you or not (assuming that they're not a farce, which sadly happens very often).
But you know what's worse? Knowing people in high places who let you in no matter the results of your test(s), an incredibly common procedure here, at least when it comes to medicine/health sciences. But that applies to everything really... *sigh*
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| Posted: Wed, 24th Apr 2013 03:09 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 24th Apr 2013 09:38 Post subject: |
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I always find it funny, these entry exams, tbh.
My situation was like this: I applied for 2 unis: physics and engineering (civil engineering? The uni where you learn about engines, boats, aircrafts, that sort of thing). And I needed to take entry exam for each.
There was math, and physics involved. Before that I had what we call matura in high school, basically a final exam (you took that if you didn't pass all your 4 yrs with 5, or A in USA system).
The entry exam for civil engineering I was like in the top, somewhere in the first 15 ppl, and in physics, I rocked math, but was short for like 2 or 3 points in physics. And you needed to pass a certain threshold to get in. And I didn't. I was devastated.
Now the fun part. Since interest in physics was low, a professor who was handing these entry exams (and happened to live one street from where I live, and I didn't know that lol), said to wait 2 weeks because a lot of ppl will drop out (most of them wanted to go to informatics uni, where you learn programming and stuff). And after 2 weeks, the line dropped, and I got in (luckily I didn't have to retake the entry exam in September, that would be a Summer wasted).
Now, some ppl that started with me had a direct admission, because they were from certain school. And today, I know that most of those with a direct admission, and some who passed the entry exam, never finished my uni, whereas I only have a 2 small exams and a master thesis to write and I'm done.
The point of my story is that you can't really judge a person by an entry exam. I managed to finish my uni because I was persistent, I researched a lot on my own (most of the stuff that they require you to do, you need to find on your own). And that's what I'm grateful for.
I may not have some special skills that I'll know just from my uni. But what my uni taught me is to be able to solve problems on my own. By researching every way and coming up with a solution.
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 24th Apr 2013 09:48 Post subject: |
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used to help a lot of guys during university studies to pass homeworks and tests as they couldn't program / solve problems (it's basically the same) if their life would depend on it. today they are either jobless or earn less than I do... I really wonder what they expected. oh and yeah, I also used some extra help during useless tests but I don't expect to get hired in any financial department 
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tw1st
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| Posted: Wed, 24th Apr 2013 14:10 Post subject: |
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Well, I know one thing for sure. I don't miss being in school.
So many nights staying up late studying like crazy, writing reports, long hours after school in study groups, exam stress, endless assignments...
Glad all that is over.
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| Posted: Wed, 24th Apr 2013 16:34 Post subject: |
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Cheat all You can I say. Life is not going to be easy and it will definietly cheat on You. So grab everything while You still can.
You gain nothing "being fair"
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deelix
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