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Cohen
Posts: 7155
Location: Rapture
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 Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 18:55 Post subject: since when do games NEED to be sandbox? |
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I kinda wanted to write this as a response to someones post on a different forum, however I probably wouldnt get much of a response from the original poster so I thought id just bring it up here.
So in the past few years, there have been a barrage of 'sandbox' or what I love to fucking rip the piss out of 'non-linear story' I hate when people bring up the whole concept of "non-linear storytelling," because there's no such thing. Stories are fucking linear by nature, it's like asking for a cat with opposite thumbs. The correct term people, is Sandbox gameplay. Because almost every game I have played this side of the millennium has been a fucking pretender. Heavy Rain for example, Which first of all I LOVED, the story was so good that I didnt care about its false claims to be non-linear storytelling.
The freedom in the game is a total illusion because the game still follows the same fucking path and leads to the same fucking killer. So whats the point in claiming otherwise?
Just cause 2 is the most recent game I played. I will state first that I thought it was shite, and a perfect example of the overly 'sandbox' games that i fucking despise right now. Fallout 3 was the only game in recent memory that I felt did 'sandbox' elements and 'non-linearity' well, but still the endings where the same with small insignificant differences. Just cause 2 was just a linear story with a fucking huge sandbox a'la GTA4 which isn't a bad thing if its done well, unfortunately for JC2... it wasn't done well.
/end rant, but ultimately, I completed Metro 2033 recently which was a no bullshit, linear story FPS that didnt claim to be something its not, and it did a fucking good job at telling a great story, and whats best of all? these games that boast a non-linear story tend to have TERRIBLE fucking stories that I couldnt give a shit had 15 slightly different endings. If someone cooks you a fucking terrible meal yet promises the desert will be worth the wait, you dont give a fuck any way and you certainly dont continue eating shit.
So, linear story and non-sandbox is NOT a bad thing. GTFO.
That will be all.
troll detected by SiN
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 19:05 Post subject: |
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It might help if you actually knew the definition of linear (and non-linear, and sandbox while we're at it), and applied that in the context of a game. So yeah, rant fail. Buy a fucking dictionary.
Last edited by OG on Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 19:17; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 19:16 Post subject: |
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Well, I agree with you, meaning that I prefer a good story-driven game that feels like it has a thought-out progression rather than a game like GTA or Just Cause, where you can just "do whatever the fuck you want". My problem has always been the same: if you give me the possibility to do whatever I want and let me fuck around, I get bored pretty quickly. I need a structure and a progression of events to keep my attention, I need a goal to focus on, if I just want to waste some time I'll play a puzzle game.
Also, I've often felt like "sandbox" is an easy excuse for having a crappy uninventive story: since the player will mostly just fuck around, no need to give them good narrative, they're probably the kind of people who would skip cutscenes anyway.
On the other hand: that's just a matter of taste. Many people just like to have an unstructured game experience where they can just relax and cause mahyem.... my brother loves GTA, but not for the "main game", whenever a new episode comes out, the first thing he does is get all the cheat codes to have unlimited ammo/health/weapons and to spawn tanks and helicopters at will, and then he just fucks around for hours. Well... whatever floats his boat I guess, I'd be bored to death after 10 minutes, but I can't blame him for having different tastes than me.
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 19:22 Post subject: |
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Hmm, seems to me you misunderstood point of sandbox games. They don't need a story, Just Cause 2 story is bad. Sandbox type of game is game for people with imagination that can think of their ways to entertain themselves. Just Cause 2 offers plenty of room for such people to experiment and have fun. If you are the type that require story in every game, go play other games, such as Dragon Age, Mass Effect, or Heavy Rain you brought to attention in the first post. Think of Just Cause like Tetris, PacMan, or others, it doesn't need story to be good/fun.
Intel Core i7 6700K @ 4.6 GHz | Asus Z170 Pro Gaming | Corsair Vengenace LPX 16GB DDR4 3200 MHz | MSI GeForce GTX 1080 FE | Samsung 850 EVO 500 GB + 250 GB | EVGA SuperNOVA 750 G2 | Fractal Design Define R5 | Noctua NH-D14
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Ankh
Posts: 23230
Location: Trelleborg
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 20:42 Post subject: |
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Cohen, don't play sandbox games if you don't like them.
Getting frustrated and ranting about games you don't like is stupid.
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 20:51 Post subject: |
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| tolanri wrote: | | Hmm, seems to me you misunderstood point of sandbox games. They don't need a story, Just Cause 2 story is bad. Sandbox type of game is game for people with imagination that can think of their ways to entertain themselves. . |
exactly
for example look at mount&blade..
it has no story
none
zero
it puts you in a world and gives you fuckall to go with and you make your OWN adventure
that's the entire point of sandboxing
that's where the term comes from.. playing in a box of sand that can be moulded by your own imagination
that's the difference with story versus game
not that there's anything wrong with wanting a story
the problem is in the industry trying to do both
having it both ways is next to impossible
you either tell a story or allow freedom
usually anything in between is a compromise
i think games strike the best balance when it's level-based, like thief or hitman or rainbow six etc
the story is linear but levels are not.. you have freedom to move around the levels and approach the game however you wish, and the levels have a few bottleneck areas where the player has to go and that's where story happens
and in between levels ofcourse
it makes me sad that there are so few games like this
if you ask me, if i want a linear experience, i go watch a movie
i want a GAME where i can express myself with as few limitations as possible
i spend enough of my time in a world where i get peed on and have no control over my lower middle class life that i want to have that atleast in my own fantasies
an exception i have to this is puzzlers or games that actually attempt to convey an artistic vision or deeper story (which are ridiculously rare and i can't think of any at the moment)
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 21:20 Post subject: |
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I agree with the OP.
I hate games like morrowind gta and what not where you're placed in a world and you have to entertain yourself.
Usually it gets boring as hell and its only fun between missions.
Now don't get me wrong SOME games are actually cool like
Dragon age or fallout, where the games are non linera but at the same time have a build up events that makes you want to keep playing to find out what happens next
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 21:26 Post subject: |
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I too agree with the op. But Dragon Age gotta be the most liniar rpg i ever played. While it may be ok for shooters, its not ok for rpgs.
ASUS TUF B550M-PLUS | RYZEN 5600x | RTX 3060TI | 16GB DDR4
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vurt
Posts: 13457
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010 22:13 Post subject: |
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I disagree completely. Storytelling / linear games are way too similar to movies with bad scripts and acting. It's like getting the worst from movies and games. Horrible acting / story + sucky gamplay where you dont really decide yourself where to go, can't explore etc, can't use most items in the world or interact (jump/swim etc) + the developer will hold your hand throughout the whole experience and tell you "ok, now you're gonna go this path here and look at the pretty sunset from this angle". The experience will be 99% similar to anyone else who played it, how fun is that?
When i see games like Gears of War or Heavy Rain (both utter crap in my book) i'm afraid we're going back to games like House of the Dead and Dragon's Lair soon  Completely braindead games where you just push a button at the right moment. To me, that is not even gaming, it's watching a fucking demo or watching a movie but with boring stops and sometimes replays of the same scene over and over.
There are still very few sandbox games, linear games are, unfortunately, still the biggest thing because people are often lazy and/or just stupid and unimaginative + people love being held in the hand by the dev from start to finish, for unknown reasons..
While the few sandbox games that exists arent perfect (a much better AI would improve gamplay tremendously) it's far more fun when what you do in the world IS the adventure and the story, (even though its simple, though only your imagination is the limit when you roleplay games like Morrowind, Sims etc..)
(Sandbox)Games lets you do stuff that movies and books can't provide. Control of movements, exploring, interaction with the world (talk/jump/climb/swim/fight/steal/collect things/wear and use items etc etc) and a full view of the world in 3D. If i want story i watch a good movie or read a good book, i dont play a storydriven game with shitty acting and often story too (compared to books/movies).
Its a waste of time and also a wasted opportunity to use this mediums biggest strengths over movies. Studios like Bioware should maybe concentrate on animated movies instead, it's clear that it's what they'd really want to do (but they lack the talent to write stories that would be good enough for that i guess).
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 00:25 Post subject: |
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At the end of the day, could pick at the errors and crap in your post but whats the point?
Sandbox games are fun and popular hence they keep producing them.
Wait for the gaming public to get over it or deal with it, them's the breaks.
It's a game, to play and have fun, not a life important things which requires debate.
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CRAIG2
Banned
Posts: 347
Location: ;(
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 00:37 Post subject: |
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Cohen, so you are telling us your lack of imagination makes you hate sand-box games, well
thats what i think when i read your comment.
Cohen,you are a script guy,a person that likes being told what to do, someone that needs a set number of rules to be followed.
Why did i said that, well a good example is GTA3 kill mission, your mission is to kill a guy:
1.you can go there,chase him,destroy his car,go after him and kill him
2.or you could before the mission steal his car,
3.or you could place a carbomb in it and detonate it
4.or block his car
5. or snipe him
6. or why chase him lets throw a grenade
7. or use a rpg
8....... and so on
your still stunk on option 1 and even after you would replay it you will still do option 1
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 12:31 Post subject: |
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Depends on what you like I guess. I absolutely need a coherent story to enjoy a game, otherwise I'll get bored very fast. Sandbox does not absolutely have to exclude a good or even a decent story, but most of the time it is the case. Developers create a great gameworld, but all things to be done in that world created are trivial and repetitive. I have to have some incentive to play a game, I hate games with the "here's the game do whatever the fuck you want" mindset behind it.
PS. I didn't read the OP, might not be what he meant.
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Cohen
Posts: 7155
Location: Rapture
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:06 Post subject: |
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The story part of games has bene disregarded so much in the last years (a few gems excluded), maybe gamers don't care about story anymore. It's been a long time since I actually connected with the character I was playing, I doubt that'll happen again in the near future. No one cares about a good story anymore, easy as that. It's all about the fast and crazy action these days, devs are just adapting to that need.
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Surray
Posts: 5409
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:07 Post subject: |
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Aren't you overreacting a bit? It's not like everything is a sandbox game.
Nonlinear games have become more popular in recent years but there's still more than enough strictly linear games out there.
Likot Mosuskekim, Woodcutter cancels Sleep: Interrupted by Elephant.
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Ankh
Posts: 23230
Location: Trelleborg
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:08 Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: |
I come from the very early era of games, the early 90's, and late 80's where almost all games had a decent story, no one had heard of 'non-linear storyline' or 'sandbox' and games where almost always polished well. Deus ex also comes to mind when I think of advancements... |
Early? Bah, I started 1982!
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:13 Post subject: |
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@OP
The human being is also defined by the ability and liberty of making choices.
A sandbox game tries to exploit this "feature" that is deep within human nature. This is what makes (or should make) a game more personal, more immersible, thus leading to a much more positive perception of the player (client) over the game (product) he is playing (consuming).
Ofc. this is only one of the reasons why sandbox games are appreciated by some. But it's good enough for me, as I am a person who doesn't like to not have a choice. 
It's subjective? Maybe. Do we have a choice to play/not play them? Yes.
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Ankh
Posts: 23230
Location: Trelleborg
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:15 Post subject: |
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I just wish they'd make Coop-Sandboxed games. Would love a huge rpg with coop (proper rpg..not like diablo...I'd rather want something more like Bards Tale/Might And Magic/Wizardry)
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
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Cohen
Posts: 7155
Location: Rapture
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Surray
Posts: 5409
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:22 Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: | | Actually I have to stop myself to point out Metro 2033. I completely forgot about that one. That is one damn good engrossing story. And yet, despite having a great atmosphere and story people give it shitty reviews because 'its linear'. |
really? I thought it got "bad" (is 7 or 8/10 really bad? I don't think so)reviews because of problems with animations, artificial intelligence, other random bugs, and it beeing too shallow.
you would give it 9+/10 and ignore those issues just because it has a good story?
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:28 Post subject: |
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| Cohen wrote: | | I come from the very early era of games, the early 90's, and late 80's where almost all games had a decent story, no one had heard of 'non-linear storyline' or 'sandbox' and games where almost always polished well. |
Yeah, all the major hits had incredible storylines. Heavily story driven games were something of the mid-late 90's, not early and definitely not 80's 
The amount of games with a really good story from that era can be counted on one hand. The typical story back then was pretty much "there's a bad guy, go kick his ass by fighting through 19238479 similar levels".
Not saying that was a bad thing, because the games themselves were fun - but amazing stories? No.
Most of the innovative games then did it by gameplay, not by story. When they couldn't think of new gameplay for a while, that's when they switched to making immersive storylines.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 13:35 Post subject: |
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I don't think the games from the late 80s had good stories. I think it's more like you see things thru nostalgic perspektive. The first real game with a story was Half Life I think? Before that I just think the story in a game was pretty basic. Sure we had some games with deep, but mostly I think the games is more storydriven today with tighter scripts.
However I do agree to some things you say about sandboxgames. There should be a good storyarc in there, which seem to be lacking in most cases. I tend to dislike sandboxgame, but that's because I have less time at my hands today, which mean I prefere a good story so I can complete the game. But at the time when I could play games all day long I loved games with no goal which you could run around and just do stuff.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 15:01 Post subject: |
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| shadow_D wrote: | | The first real game with a story was Half Life I think? |
Uhh... There are loads and loads of rpg's and adventure games (and that's just these two genres) with better stories than Half-Life that were released prior to it.
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Ankh
Posts: 23230
Location: Trelleborg
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 15:09 Post subject: |
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| inz wrote: | | shadow_D wrote: | | The first real game with a story was Half Life I think? |
Uhh... There are loads and loads of rpg's and adventure games (and that's just these two genres) with better stories than Half-Life that were released prior to it. |
Indeed!
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 15:26 Post subject: |
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If you think Halflife was the first game with a good story you've missed a lot of classics. A story doesn't need to be unique either, they don't have to invent the wheel with every game. It's about how it's told.
This "choices and consequences" bs has taken the overhand imo. Most of the time those 'choices' don't even mean shit, you'll get the same conclusion anyway. Reactions like "I want to go left but I can't. Game's shit" comments piss me off. Well then go right like the dev wanted and let them tell their story asshole.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 16:03 Post subject: |
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1 of the greatest selling games ever is about dropping blocks of different shapes to make lines.
Another 1 is a plumber rescuing a princess, with little else to pad it out.
Some games go for story, some go for gameplay. Some try to do both. None of the approaches are right or wrong, it's ridiculous faboism to argue otherwise, just play the ones which suit.
It's a wide world out there, just because something doesn't suit your tastes doesn't mean there aren't millions out there entertained by it which is what the medium is all about.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 16:30 Post subject: |
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I want a game that has a great story, awesome gameplay, candy graphics and a giant labia that's thrown onto the screen every now and then.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 20:25 Post subject: |
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In this thread:
1. People promoting the sophomoric trash writing/storylines produced in the age of 8-bit games.
2. People claiming that games that huge percentages of the gaming population adore are destroying gaming.
3. People that don't realize many of their favorite games are terrible.
4. Lots of "oh noes WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO TEH GAMING?"
I think that about covers it.
ps. woops, forgot to mention 5. Guy that doesn't know what linear means.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Apr 2010 21:07 Post subject: |
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Well, yes I might have missed classics, but I have far from played everything. Still, of course there were game with stories. But my point was that games today is more about story than the game back in the days. I mean, DOOM for example had a story, but how much of that is played thru during the game? The adventure genre I think was more about puzzle solving and humor then a story, talking about Lucasarts games and Sierras (I love those game btw). Of course we had story in the RPG genre, but it was almost dead until we got Baldurs Gate 1. You didn't put as much resourses in making a story as the companies do today, which is understandble, they developers didn't have as much money so they could hire a good storyteller like Rihanna Pratchett.
But you can give me some tip about old games with good stories, I have an old laptop I usally bring with me when I travel, would fit perfect on that computer
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where you could really get engrossed in a good story, just off the top of my head the original Half Life, at its time nothing had ever came close to what it achieved.. it was a breakthrough and milestone in games and I feel we havent had any 'breakthrough' games in recent years. Half life 2 and the source engine is probably the most recent one. There's been plenty of graphical improvements and mile stones in visual effects etc.
Its far from perfect as it does have its technical issues, but at least the story and atmosphere had plenty of good attention huh?
