please don't turn this into a piracy wrong or right debate please for fuck's sake
It's not a debate. I'm providing an indisputable, ethically infallible answer: Piracy is never right. There is no moral argument or counter-point to make.
Smokeythedemon wrote:
So did you hear about Assassin's Creed 2 getting pushed back by a quarter of a year for no real reason at all?
Yeah, it's a lose-lose situation for the players, AND Ubisoft, but what they're doing is for the best, when it's necessary.
PC gamers need to remember that yeah, they have the most flexible platform available, with options for the most powerful hardware. With that comes the fact that sometimes, a PC version of a game (which can be exponentially more complex to implement and test, compared to a console version) just can't be finished on the same day as the console version.
You can't have it both ways. You get the near-infinity flexibility and enormous power available, but you have to occasionally trade something for it. Grow up a little; most things in life are give-and-take.
sabin1981 wrote:
Hey buttnuggets; I'm gonna pirate this game simply BECAUSE of the delay. Not because I don't think it's worth the money, but BECAUSE OF THE DELAY. I had this game down as a day1 purchase, but I will NOT be held hostage by publishers treating me like a 2nd-fucking-class citizen.
You are reading a lot into a situation, that simply isn't there.
Are you this paranoid and delusional about everything in life? Do you really think that everyone is that fucking out to get you? If so, I pity you. I really do.
Also, you didn't really address my point: Fine, pirate away. Doesn't change the fact that it is wrong, which you haven't exactly disproven. Point stands: delay or not, if you don't pay, you are not justified to play. Concrete ethical axiom.
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As for my knowledge on the "intricacies" on modern day development? Eat me. I don't see a single thing with this entire situation that *isn't* based on pure and simple greed. Delay the PC version, needlessly, in order to make the - more expensive - console version the only SKU on the market. Which does what, boys and girls? YES! It increases profits!
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I don't like greedy publishers or developers. In a bid to get more sales by artificially limiting the availability, they've just lost a sale.
And publishers and developers don't like snot-nosed pretentious whiney self-entitling little crybaby brats who steal games over 6 day delays. Keep it up; they will be less and less beholden to your interests, the more you do it. Thanks for being a detriment to our hobby!
It's not a debate. I'm providing an indisputable, ethically infallible answer: Piracy is never right. There is no moral argument or counter-point to make.
Sounds like you thought it through for 100 years. Black and white, eh? There's a difference between ethics and morality.
And btw, judging from your entire post, you're a douchebag crusader for the industry.
It's not a conspiracy. It's a fact. Explain to me, Master Tool, how any company can "optimise" a game for a million and one PC configurations, then ship the final code to be mastered, then put on the shelves at stores around the country .... in six days.
What's that? Stutter stutter stutter? You can't? That's because it CAN'T be done.
Games make their best sales in the first week of retail (excluding Sunday, thereby leaving SIX days of a retail week where sales can occur, online stores not withstanding) - so by artificially making sure only xxx gets the game - a considerably more expensive platform, they further increase profits. Call me delusional all you want, I'm not the one sat here looking like a tard with my constant griping at everyone.
I mean, Jesus H.. this is a site dedicated to piracy information, and all you do - in each and every post - is bitch and piss and whine and nerd raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage at those indulging IN piracy.
You're either a very, very spoiled little child - who has been fed via silver spoon his entire life, or you're a game developer yourself, throwing bitch-fits at us all. Either way, you're incredibly amusing, I'll give you that <3
I have never, not once on this or any forum, claimed piracy is "right" or "legal" - but in some cases? Yeah, I choose to claim that it CAN be a tool for sending a hard-hitting message to greedy and aggressive publishers. You constantly go on and on and on about developers, but guess what? Developers are already paid!! Our theft of the software, once it hits retail, doesn't affect developers - who earn their wages during development - it affects publishers. The more we scare the publisher into realising that we are NOT going to take this shit all the time, then hopefully the more they realise and start to treat their customers like human beings, rather than walking sacks of money.
Cedge wrote:
Thanks for being a detriment to our hobby!
Slip o' the tongue, dear Cedgey baby?
I choose to believe that you aren't referring to the hobby as a gamer, but the hobby of being a coder. Whassamatta, baby, did you code some pathetic little platformer that sold like shit because, hey!, it IS shit - so therefore you're bitching to us and blaming it on piracy?
This deserves a decent reply;
Spoiler:
=Edit=
Woohoo!! Limit Break! LUCKY 7s!
Last edited by sabin1981 on Fri, 25th Sep 2009 09:21; edited 1 time in total
Piss off lhzr. Go troll elsewhere, we're having a discussion.
One week for Borderlands, quarter YEAR for Ass Creed 2. We're sick of being treated like 2nd-class citizens, so piss off back to the console board where you belong.
Explain to me, Master Tool, how any company can "optimise" a game for a million and one PC configurations, then ship the final code to be mastered, then put on the shelves at stores around the country .... in six days.
You're precluding the eensy-weensy tiny little possibility that they aren't going to start working on optimizing the PC version on October 20th.
Maybe, just maybe, they're already working on optimization, and, as hard as this may be for you to grasp, it's looking like the PC version will take an extra week over the console versions! Let me know if you need extra time to ponder this concept, until you understand it.
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Games make their best sales in the first week of retail (excluding Sunday, thereby leaving SIX days of a retail week where sales can occur, online stores not withstanding) - so by artificially making sure only xxx gets the game - a considerably more expensive platform, they further increase profits. Call me delusional all you want, I'm not the one sat here looking like a tard with my constant griping at everyone.
This whole argument precludes the plainly reasonable explanation of the PC version simply needing an extra week.
Call me a tard all you want, I'm not the one sitting here insisting that it's impossible for optimizing a PC version of a game to take an extra week, or for this to be a reasonable situation.
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I mean, Jesus H.. this is a site dedicated to piracy information, and all you do - in each and every post - is bitch and piss and whine and nerd raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage at those indulging IN piracy.
And all you do is bitch about delays and copy protection, and the industry is really out to rape you. Your paranoid breakdowns are barely anymore on-topic.
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You're either a very, very spoiled little child - who has been fed via silver spoon his entire life, or you're a game developer yourself, throwing bitch-fits at us all. Either way, you're incredibly amusing, I'll give you that <3
There is no either about it, with you: You are a very, very spoiled little PC gamer, who has decided that unless every single detail about a game meets your impossible-to-satisfy eight-thousand-point checklist, that it's a gigantic human injustice, equal to being a "second-class citizen," and that you will unleash into a torrent of self-righteousness about how you're going to pirate the game and punish the game companies and blah-de-fuckin-blah. Certainly, you are queen of the bitch-fits around here.
Sadly, you are not very amusing.
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I have never, not once on this or any forum, claimed piracy is "right" or "legal" - but in some cases? Yeah, I choose to claim that it CAN be a tool for sending a hard-hitting message to greedy and aggressive publishers.
And what are they supposed to do, when that message comes across as "fuck you either way, publishers!"
They're damned if they deliver a game on time and it's buggy due to not having the (reasonable to expect) extra time dedicated to the PC version, and they're damned if they choose to delay the game to address this.
This is the really bullshit thing about what you do: You always create a lose/lose, damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don't scenario for the games company.
Your insistence on absolute perfection in EVERY REGARD IMAGINABLE simply does not fit this hobby very well.
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You constantly go on and on and on about developers, but guess what? Developers are already paid!! Our theft of the software, once it hits retail, doesn't affect developers - who earn their wages during development - it affects publishers.
Yeah, the staffers are already paid for a game by then, but you're not considering that poor sales don't exactly do much to help those developers get hired for another project.
Yes, it does hurt the individual developers, eventually.
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The more we scare the publisher into realising that we are NOT going to take this shit all the time, then hopefully the more they realise and start to treat their customers like human beings, rather than walking sacks of money.
Wow. I'm glad that my sense of humanity is based on more than whether or not a game is delayed for a week.
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Slip o' the tongue, dear Cedgey baby?
Nope. If you're pirating a game that you had intended to buy, over a perfectly justified 6-day release that there is no real evidence to prove that it isn't simply to provide a better product, well, you sure as hell aren't HELPING the industry.
You have no proof that this delay isn't a genuinely necessary attempt to deliver a better product, and you're punishing them for that. You are a brat.
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I choose to believe that you aren't referring to the hobby as a gamer, but the hobby of being a coder. Whassamatta, baby, did you code some pathetic little platformer that sold like shit because, hey!, it IS shit - so therefore you're bitching to us and blaming it on piracy?
I've never coded anything in my life. Closest I ever got to "coding" was typing in code from magazines into my TI/99, back when that was a popular way to distribute games.
I choose to believe that the way you seem to be inventing a detailed personal history of my life for yourself is more evidence that you are a paranoid, delusional, schizophrenic, demented little man.
Parallax_ wrote:
And btw, judging from your entire post, you're a douchebag crusader for the industry.
Not at all. Whether or not I care about the well-being of the industry, does not change the moral imperatives.
sabin1981 wrote:
We're sick of being treated like 2nd-class citizens, so piss off back to the console board where you belong.
Wow. I don't think you really understand the term "second-class citizens," because it's a pretty unreasonable stretch to use it to refer to people who occasionally see a game get delayed, on a platform that, by nature, should be expected to see delays far more frequently than it does. What's next from you? The game publishers are Hitler, and gamers are the Jews?
I choose to believe that the way you seem to be inventing a detailed personal history of my life for yourself is more evidence that you are a paranoid, delusional, schizophrenic, demented little man.
You forgot handsome
Cedge wrote:
sabin1981 wrote:
We're sick of being treated like 2nd-class citizens, so piss off back to the console board where you belong.
Wow. I don't think you really understand the term "second-class citizens," because it's a pretty unreasonable stretch to use it to refer to people who occasionally see a game get delayed, on a platform that, by nature, should be expected to see delays far more frequently than it does. What's next from you? The game publishers are Hitler, and gamers are the Jews?
I fully understand the term, you on the other hand obviously do not. You seem to think that just because it's a "game" then being treated differently depending on which platform you buy that game, is nothing to worry about. That it's perfectly acceptable and that any griping about it is just childish and silly (oh and way to Godwin the thread, numbnuts. Ran out of logic and instead resorted to making me seem like I'm treating gaming woes as the fucking Holocaust *golf clap*)
We pay our money, yet we get treated as after-thoughts and, more often than not; we get left with buggy, unsupported, expensive trash that - here's another shocker for your - we PAY for.
If I pay for something, I want the exact same treatment as anyone else that pays for it - regardless of platform. However, this plainly and obviously isn't the case. I choose to play my games on the PC, so therefore I'm subjected to buggy crap, poor performance despite relatively high-end hardware, delays and additional wait times and postponed/cancelled DLC that has magically become console exclusive.
You wanna live in a world like that? Where you pay and get less of a product? Good for you. I, on the other hand, refuse to pay for a substandard product.
It's not a debate. I'm providing an indisputable, ethically infallible answer: Piracy is never right. There is no moral argument or counter-point to make.
What if World War 3 occurs and a totalitarian state of EVIL!! (and you can tell they're really evil because of the bolding and exclamation marks) take over the world, and they have made it their solemn quest to hoard all the world's microwave dinners because only those survived the nukes, and they also kick grandma's and beat up babies because they're really EVIL!!
And anyway, the only way to survive and take down this EVIL!! organization so that they may no longer kick old women and beat up babies is by raiding their supply of microwave dinner trucks. WHAT THEN OH MIGHTY CEDGE?! IS PIRACY NOT RIGHT?!
You have an innate problem with dissecting posts line-by-line instead of replying like a normal person Cedge. As is somehow you got a huge point to make. Stop being such a goddamn faultfinder. Either discuss like a normal person or shut up already. You are going on so many assumptions on how a big publisher operates, but in the end the motives are to maximize profits - so why on a roundabout of assuming what reasons they have, when in the end it all ends up at the same spot anyway?
Piss off lhzr. Go troll elsewhere, we're having a discussion.
One week for Borderlands, quarter YEAR for Ass Creed 2. We're sick of being treated like 2nd-class citizens, so piss off back to the console board where you belong.
No, ffs, keep him here.
Alot of games have been pushed to next year. What looked to be the best gaming year ever is going to be pretty mediocre. Many publishers were probably pushing up there releases so they didn´t have to compete against other big names. Instead they now have to compete with max payne, splinter cell, alan wake, battlefield, bioshock, mass effect, star craft, etc. Probably regret that now.
Point is there is many reasons why a game gets pushed. It needs more work, exclusive deal, fear of other games on market, and so on. Imho only first one should be considered as a justified cause for pushing games.
You have an innate problem with dissecting posts line-by-line instead of replying like a normal person Cedge.
Hey, it's not my fault that every single line is fulled with so much stupidity.
Cedge wrote:
I fully understand the term, you on the other hand obviously do not.
If you must use a term, try "second-class customer" or "second-class audience." But citizen? Please. Do you call yourself a "citizen" of every company you patronize?
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(oh and way to Godwin the thread, numbnuts. Ran out of logic and instead resorted to making me seem like I'm treating gaming woes as the fucking Holocaust *golf clap*)
I think you're the one who ran out of logic, seeing as how you resorted to simply not responding to the vast majority of my post.
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We pay our money, yet we get treated as after-thoughts and, more often than not; we get left with buggy, unsupported, expensive trash that - here's another shocker for your - we PAY for.
It's pretty fucking universally accepted that to get a PC version of a game to perform anywhere close to on-par with a console version, in even a moderately high percentage of configurations, requires far MORE effort, than the effort of getting the console versions to their status. You're seriously overlooking this key factor.
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If I pay for something, I want the exact same treatment as anyone else that pays for it - regardless of platform.
And again, this is what you're not understanding: the PC version usually requires significantly MORE time/money/effort/resources. Inevitably, the PC platform brings with it MORE problems; always has, always will. It's inherent to the platform.
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I, on the other hand, refuse to pay for a substandard product.
Fine. But don't think that you're justified in playing it without paying, "substandard" or not. Quality of the product being stolen does not factor into whether or not the theft is justifiable.
You're doing it again. You're claiming that I have said piracy is right or legal or justified. I have said neither. I know piracy is illegal. I know piracy is wrong. I know that each and every person justifies their actions - it's human nature, because if we just did things without justification or without thought, what would we be? We'd be no different than animals.
You're fighting a losing battle, as you always have on this board, simply because your stance is too dominating and nobody ever sides with you. Simply put; you are wrong 100% of the time.
Give up already.
Oh and before you whine again about my ignoring your posts (wow... aren't we a little touchy today? Type slow or something? You seem to get annoyed when half your blathering is disregarded or not even READ. Helpful advice; learn to type faster. That way you won't feel insulted when nobody reads a massive volume of text, since it only took you a minute to write it anyway ) -- the REASON I ignore most of it is because I honestly have better things to do than dissect your posts, word for word, and line by line.
I pick what I find relevant - and respond.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Fri, 25th Sep 2009 10:32; edited 1 time in total
Okay so everyone who looked at my postcount prior to reading this message feel free to ignore me because I obviously have no right to an opinion.
For the rest of you, I would like to state that I own my own company that specializes in entertainment, specifically; hosting poker tournaments in various bars, company parties, and charity benefits. When I come across an opportunity to increase profits for my business, I unashamedly do so. After all, I am here to make money. If I cannot, I will fail. I don't think I need to give anyone here a listing of the names of studios and companys in the game industry that have gone under.
To be upset, much less outraged that they have decided to delay the game a week in order to boost sales in the 360 is nothing short of niave. I am not going to defend their statement that they are optimising. I personally think they should have flat out said that they want to capitalize on the console sales. Please do not get offened by my words, being niave is not an insult, merely a lack of real world practical experience. I am not trolling or flaming anyone. I think there is a distinct lack of objectivity in this thread. If the publisher does nto make money, they fail. Simple as that. I am encouraged by what they are doing as it shows a good sense of business and hopefully will result in them turning a profit so that they are able to not only stay in business, but to thrive in a Highly competitive market.
To be upset, much less outraged that they have decided to delay the game a week in order to boost sales in the 360 is nothing short of niave. I am not going to defend their statement that they are optimising. I personally think they should have flat out said that they want to capitalize on the console sales. Please do not get offened by my words, being niave is not an insult, merely a lack of real world practical experience. I am not trolling or flaming anyone. I think there is a distinct lack of objectivity in this thread. If the publisher does nto make money, they fail. Simple as that.
Dude, I completely and utterly understand! I don't like delays, and I sure as hell hate being lied to, but if they'd at least have come out and said "We're delaying the PC version in order to maximise profits on the console one, we're really sorry, but it won't be a long delay!" at least that honesty would have been refreshing. It's harsh and, for me, unacceptable - but at least it would have been more in touch with the customers.
Instead I just feel insulted that they thought we'd be gullible enough to swallow the bullshit "6 more days for optimisation! Oh and console versions are first, teehee" line. Now we PC gamers have to sit on the bench, watching previews and reviews and user-videos, listening to feedback about how awesome this game is - having the snide remarks about us not having it yet - while console gamers get to lap it up.
I hardly call that fair business or even fair treatment of customers.
Without PC gamers, Gearbox wouldn't event EXIST. I find this a poor way to treat people that kept that company in business.
You have an innate problem with dissecting posts line-by-line instead of replying like a normal person Cedge. As is somehow you got a huge point to make. Stop being such a goddamn faultfinder. Either discuss like a normal person or shut up already. You are going on so many assumptions on how a big publisher operates, but in the end the motives are to maximize profits - so why on a roundabout of assuming what reasons they have, when in the end it all ends up at the same spot anyway?
We're ALL assuming! Nobody here ('cept Cedge, whom I firmly believe is an industry plant on this forum ) knows *exactly* why these delays happen, we can only choose to BELIEVE. I believe that the delays are nothing more than maximising profits by limiting the availability of a cheaper platform.
Okay Sabin, fair enough. I am glad you do agree that the company is entiteld to make money, and yes, I do agree they could have gone about it in a Much better way. Public relations is 70% of my job, and it is a skill that some people, and companies, jsut don't have. Oh and off topic but congrats on your wedding. You are one of the few on this site that I have conversed with and I enjoy the few conversations we have had. Come honeymoon in the evil empire known as the United States and you and your brides bartab as on me.
How am I assuming anything? It's business 101. Note that I am talking about big publishers, not indie studios, where the primary motive might be other things.
Okay Sabin, fair enough. I am glad you do agree that the company is entiteld to make money, and yes, I do agree they could have gone about it in a Much better way. Public relations is 70% of my job, and it is a skill that some people, and companies, jsut don't have.
I've never denied that a developer, or indeed some evil corp publisher, deserves money. Making a game is no easy task and it takes years, so of course they deserve the money - I just dislike the WAY they get it. DRM, limited installs, system-breaking protection, buying off the competition, limited availability, timed exclusives .. it's all just "Meh!" to me.
I'd rather companies were honest. If you create a multi-platform game, don't try and sew up the market so that only one of those platforms has the best revenue. Give them all a chance! They claim piracy is why they focus on consoles now, but that's just ludicrous! PSP/NDS/360/PS2/etc etc are rife with piracy! In fact, once you've gotten the system fixed, it's the easiest platform to pirate on!
Download, burn, play.
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Oh and off topic but congrats on your wedding. You are one of the few on this site that I have conversed with and I enjoy the few conversations we have had. Come honeymoon in the evil empire known as the United States and you and your brides bartab as on me.
Thanks mate! I'm on here right now, drinking lots of coffee and smoking copious cigs, to try and calm my nerves.. lol. My missus is pacing the place, making sure everything is done to perfection, and we're getting married this afternoon
How am I assuming anything? It's business 101. Note that I am talking about big publishers, not indie studios, where the primary motive might be other things.
You accuse him of making assumptions, yet you do the same. He justifies his assumption with the argument "finetuning for the PC takes more time" while you justify it with "it's bussiness 101". How do both assumptions differ? Both are assumptions based on how you think it all works.
As for the "we're being treated as second-rate citizens" thing, I disagree. I won't go into how good/bad piracy is, I don't care if it kills babies or not. I just do it because I can. I do agree with Cedge when he talks about finetuning for the PC. Let me make an assumption. What if the PC version really needs some more work? Should they delay the console versions for a simultaneous release? Wouldn't we be pissed if that would happen with the PC version? This is all the standard "PC gamers are being fucked by consoles" sentiment some PC gamers seem to have these days.
What if the PC version really needs some more work? Should they delay the console versions for a simultaneous release?
Honestly? To be completely fair? Yes.
Afterall, it is only six days. Right? Right? You complain about us bitching over a "six day delay!" well then - delay the console versions for six days. Deal? It is, afterall, only six days
I'm not complaining exactly, I just find it weird. Now I would understand if they would've cancelled the PC version because they don't give a shit. It's a six day delay, it's nothing special. The problem is that the publisher/dev can't do it right. If they delay it and say "it needs works" you'll be pissed, if they delay it and say "fuck you" you'll be pissed", if it really needs works yet they release it you'll be pissed. So what exactly should they do?
Stop announcing release dates that they can't hit.
Stop releasing console versions months before PC versions.
Those two would be a great start. However, in this (Borderlands) case, since the delay is so minuscule - apparently - then why not just have a global delay? If it really is only going to take six days to "optimise" the PC version (chortle...) then why not just issue a global delay on ALL versions, since it's only for six DAYS?
That's because, as I said, this has nothing to do with optimisation - but to do with profits from the more expensive platform.
If someone owns a PC and a 360, what version are they going to buy? The more expensive, less graphically featured, console version? Or the cheaper, more feature-packed, PC one? No contest, really. So by saying it's for "optimisation" they're lying to the customer.
.... I also can't wait to see the shit-storm that comes from all this if the PC version (DELAYED FOR OPTIMISATION!!) ends up running like boiled ass when it finally gets here
Ethics are systems of moral principles. For the purposes of this conversation, the terms have little or no fundamental difference.
sabin1981 wrote:
Honestly? To be completely fair? Yes.
Afterall, it is only six days. Right? Right? You complain about us bitching over a "six day delay!" well then - delay the console versions for six days. Deal? It is, afterall, only six days
I'd like to see you try to convince a shareholder's meeting of why it was decided to hold back two printed, retail-ready SKUs, to launch them day-and-date with a third SKU that needed a week's extra fine tuning.
sabin1981 wrote:
That's because, as I said, this has nothing to do with optimisation - but to do with profits from the more expensive platform.
[...]
So by saying it's for "optimisation" they're lying to the customer.
I'd like to see you try to convince a shareholder's meeting of why it was decided to hold back two printed, retail-ready SKUs, to launch them day-and-date with a third SKU that needed a week's extra fine tuning.
That's because the above statement is, I *believe*, a lie. There is nothing wrong with the third SKU. Period.
Here, something that should illustrate what I mean;
Cedge wrote:
Assumption factory.
You're getting boring now. Seriously, just shut the fuck up and stop repeating the same, tired, old line.
You are operating under the assumption that what Gearbox say is the truth. I am operating under the assumption that what they say is false.
Deal with it. Change the record.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Fri, 25th Sep 2009 11:20; edited 1 time in total
Stop announcing release dates that they can't hit.
Stop releasing console versions months before PC versions.
Not being able to meet your deadline is pretty much standard. Yes it would be great if they can accurately give a releasedate, but that hasn't been the case since the dawn of gaming. That's why I usually don't bother with release dates. In my fav mag, the monthly rel date list is even announced as "the list of lies".
sabin1981 wrote:
Those two would be a great start. However, in this (Borderlands) case, since the delay is so minuscule - apparently - then why not just have a global delay? If it really is only going to take six days to "optimise" the PC version (chortle...) then why not just issue a global delay on ALL versions, since it's only for six DAYS?
This is very hyprocritical since no one here would accept or even suggest it if it would be the other way around.
sabin1981 wrote:
That's because, as I said, this has nothing to do with optimisation - but to do with profits from the more expensive platform..
assumptions, based on nothing.
sabin1981 wrote:
If someone owns a PC and a 360, what version are they going to buy? The more expensive, less graphically featured, console version? Or the cheaper, more feature-packed, PC one? No contest, really. So by saying it's for "optimisation" they're lying to the customer.
Someone with half a brain will wait six days for the PC version if he wants that one.
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) -- the REASON I ignore most of it is because I honestly have better things to do than dissect your posts, word for word, and line by line.
