But what about his Megatexture tech? As I understood it, it should solve the problem with the low amounts of memory on the consoles, and instead take up more storage space. And I guess that would allow the devs to advance the gfx for all platforms.
Did I get that wrong or?
It solves the problem of repetitive texture detail but uses more space. Other than the fact that it's easily streamable so consoles won't have a problem loading these huge files, it doesn't help them in any other way.
So no higher texture quality for all platforms?
Variety yes. Quality not necessarily, maybe due to streaming.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
Laugh all you want, but I think things will work like in a cycle. We have basically returned to the simplest games with these phones and tablets, but these people, some of them are smart, some will enjoy harder games.
I have a friend, he's into trading stock, real sharp, he never played before he had a smartphone, now he plays simple games, but already expressed his need for something more challenging, something harder. If it weren't for casual games, he never would have taken up "gaming" at all.
Look at this as a renaissance, perhaps history will repeat itself, and from these simplistic games, more complex ones will emerge once more - the indies will do it, and people will play them.
Yes, it might be through facebook, which is shit, but I'd rather play a challenging game through facebook, than a braindead console port as a desktop app.
Laugh all you want, but I think things will work like in a cycle. We have basically returned to the simplest games with these phones and tablets, but these people, some of them are smart, some will enjoy harder games.
I have a friend, he's into trading stock, real sharp, he never played before he had a smartphone, now he plays simple games, but already expressed his need for something more challenging, something harder. If it weren't for casual games, he never would have taken up "gaming" at all.
Look at this as a renaissance, perhaps history will repeat itself, and from these simplistic games, more complex ones will emerge once more - the indies will do it, and people will play them.
Yes, it might be through facebook, which is shit, but I'd rather play a challenging game through facebook, than a braindead console port as a desktop app.
You might be on to something I sure hope so
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
Eurogamer: You seem to be suggesting the console versions of Rage are as good as the PC version.
Quote:
John Carmack: On a really high end PC you can run it at a much higher resolution. You can run it at two megatexels. You can run it with anti-aliasing on.
We break the world up into these virtualised texture pieces, so they're all cut up into pages. The consoles only have enough memory for us to have 1000 or 2000. They're limited on there where we actually can't bring in as much data as we would like. So some of the areas wind up being a little bit blurrier and lower fidelity, because of the memory limits on the console.
On the PC, if you're running on a high-end system, you can have four times as much memory available for it. That lets everything wind up looking crisper and a little bit less blurry in places.
But the downside is, despite a high-end PC being ten times as powerful as the consoles, we suffer a lot from API overhead. Because of the way id Tech 5 works, where we're breaking it up into so many texture pieces and uploads, on the consoles we're just like, I'm going to stick this in that memory right there and we just go do it.
While on the PC, OK we're updating this one page here, which turns into a 1x1 tech sub image update. If you're a programmer and you single step through what happens when you issue that on a PC it makes you want to cry. It's so much extra overhead.
We're working closely with NVIDIA, ATI, AMD and Intel to get this as good as possible. One of the things I'm really proud of is how Rage has championed a new extension. On the consoles we're 60 frames per second. One of the things that always sucked about 60Hz games is traditionally, if you're v-syncing on there, if you miss by a tiny bit it drops to 30FPS, which is catastrophic. That's a fall off a cliff difference there.
So what we do on the consoles, where we have this tight control, is we say, OK, you're going 60FPS, it's v-syncing, there are no tear lines. But if you miss by a tiny little bit, we'll let it tear at the top of the screen and we adjust the resolutions dynamically to let it catch back up.
We were able to convince all of the vendors to go ahead and implement that extension on Windows, so we're now able to do that at 60FPS as long as you've got the horsepower. But if you get a hiccup, where it slows down a little bit, it reverts to tearing, which is exactly what we want for gameplay reasons.
That is still one of the cool things about being able to work with OpenGL extensions on there. As soon as we can present a compelling case to these guys, which is basically, look, this $200 console is playing smoother than your $200 system on here, you need to fix this and here's one of the steps you can do there, and they got it done. That's still a good thing.
Quote:
And shoot, once we're out ten years cloud-based gaming is almost a shoe-in. It's not a shoe-in this year or next year, but if you look ten years out, piping everything over a broadband connection, there are huge advantages to doing that.
[quote]Eurogamer: Does that mean the end of home consoles?
John Carmack: It might. There are a lot of different factors there, where computing power is getting so ridiculously cheap and we carry so much of it around. People's telephones could be their home console, and it just beams over to the TV set when they're there and they want that experience. Do we want these separate walled gardens: here's what we've got on our PC, here's what we've got on our console, here's what we've got on our mobile phone?[/quote]
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
If he feels so strongly about this, then write your own API that speaks directly to the nVidia/AMD driver and shut the fuck up.
Oh right, he is busy wasting his time developing for the iOS now.
If he feels so strongly about this, then write your own API that speaks directly to the nVidia/AMD driver and shut the fuck up.
Oh right, he is busy wasting his time developing for the iOS now.
It's obvious that you have absolutely no idea where you are talking about. He is completely right, as he usually is. If you do some little more research (especially in OpenGL and DirectX), you easily find that this is a huge overhead (The API overhead he is talking about that). DirectX and OpenGL are already overhead, let alone the drivers. It's nearly impossible to directly code to the GPU's. There are some new developments (CUDA, OpenCL) but unfortunately this is still somewhat divided by two different sides (AMD and NVIDIA) and thus it's not very interesting (read not at all) for developers. DX11 is a huge step forward though, but you still have the driver overhead and other overheads. Console is easy, one GPU, one CPU, one everything (one )
It is possible to directly talk to the hardware. The overhead is there for a reason. But if he thinks he can do better then shut the fuck up and do it.
Carmack like to hear himself speak (or read transcripts of his writing/speech) and he has said that time over time over time. But he has done nothing on the subject.
What, he just discovered the overhead now? Give me a fucking break. The guy's been speaking in favor of OpenGL for years upon years, and OpenGL is the epitome of overhead. But suddenly he noticed it and he is so concerned he has to repeat it in every interview.
Either put up or shut up. He hasn't done anything impressive since 2004 and is now trying to blame it on necessary overhead.
C and especially C++ have great overhead over assembly. Let's throw those away...
Well by all means, feel free to communicate directly across the buses yourself. FIrst thing you'll have to do to make it easier for yourself to work with it is erm...OH RIGHT, make a fucking driver
Drivers aren't overhead. They're necessary and you should be glad you've got em - I'm sure Leo and other software engineers on here have dabbled with some microcontrollers, that's a lot of work and it's nothing compared to a graphics card (or any bigger piece of hardware really) - and even then you usually have a set of libraries (or 'drivers') already available to do stuff.
OpenGL and DirectX (more accurately, Direct3D in this case) do have some overhead, but again, if he thinks he can do better, there is absolutely nothing stopping him.
What was so impressive in 2004 btw Leo? The lighting in Tech 4? I know you dislike the rest of that engine as much as I do, the lighting really doesn't make up for that (or Doom 3 for that matter, or for letting Raven fuck up Quake 4 as badly as they did)
I don't dislike Tech 4. It was amazing for its time (and still is, to me, more impressive then Tech 5, because of its complete dynamic lighting). Let's also take into consideration that the engine was, to a degree, ready in 2001, when the infamous E3 demo was shown and later the alpha leaked. At that time, the graphics were almost CGI-like. Let's give credit where credit is due. And it most definitely isn't due over this 60-fps-on-console trash. Nor for his immature bashes of something that cannot be in any feasable way be replaced. You pay for portability and ease of use with overhead. This is how it works. Take a look at the original OpenGL shading language. It was very assembly-like. It was traded with GLSL, for all intents and purposes a very overhead-driven design. Has anyone looked back?
While confirming that the next Quake is not in development, Carmack told Eurogamer there are "strong factions" within the US developer that want to create another game in the seminal first-person shooter series.
And discussions are pointing towards going back to the first game's quirky roots.
"Nothing is scheduled here, people are not building this," Carmack said.
"We went from the Quake 2 and the Quake 4 Strogg universe. We are at least tossing around the possibilities of going back to the bizarre, mixed up Cthulhu-ish Quake 1 world and rebooting that direction.
"We think that would be a more interesting direction than doing more Strogg stuff after Quake 4.
"We certainly have strong factions internally that want to go do this.
"But we could do something pretty grand like that, that still tweaks the memory right in all of those ways, but is actually cohesive and plays with all of the strengths of the level we're at right now."
Quote:
The first Quake is credited with pioneering online FPS gaming, but Carmack believes it benefits from rose-tinted nostalgia goggles.
"The way I think about some of those things, and I actually get into arguments with my wife about this, who loved the original Quake game, I looked at the original Quake as this random thing, because we really didn't have our act together very well.
"But because it was so seminal about the 3D world and the internet gaming, it's imprinted on so many people. It made such an impact in so many ways. Memory cuts us a lot of slack."
Adding his thoughts into the mix, id CEO Todd Hollenshead said: "People shouldn't worry that we're ever going to orphan or abandon Quake. We are huge fans of the game internally."
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
What was so wrong with Quake 4? I see that most of you here hate it. I personally loved it. It felt right, it felt oldschool. Doom 3 on the other hand was pure boring shit.
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What was so wrong with Quake 4? I see that most of you here hate it. I personally loved it. It felt right, it felt oldschool. Doom 3 on the other hand was pure boring shit.
This.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
What was so wrong with Quake 4? I see that most of you here hate it. I personally loved it. It felt right, it felt oldschool. Doom 3 on the other hand was pure boring shit.
Quake's great! I'm thinking about replaying Q4 now that I have completed Duke. these rare old school shooters are really like a breath of fresh air in these "COD times".
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
I didn't say that anything was wrong with Quake 4, I really enjoyed it too and it actually was one of the first games I've bought (the "best of" version, sadly ).
But between keeping up with the Strogg saga or going in a ctulhu-ish direction(but greatly improved from what they did with Quake), I think that it's a no -brainer.
boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote:
i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then
I never meant to say that to you, it was just that I've seen that a lot of the humpers didn't like Quake 4. As for the first Quake, I don't remember much about it, only the amazing soundtrack actually.
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I didn't say that anything was wrong with Quake 4, I really enjoyed it too and it actually was one of the first games I've bought (the "best of" version, sadly ).
But between keeping up with the Strogg saga or going in a ctulhu-ish direction(but greatly improved from what they did with Quake), I think that it's a no -brainer.
I love the Cthulhu Mythos, so I'm also interested. They should hire whats left of Raven to do that game, IMO, Raven is a great but underrated Developer.
"Sometimes when you do things right, people are not sure you've done anything at all." -- God (Futurama)
What was wrong with Quake 4? What wasn't wrong? For 3 games in a row, they completely nailed it. Q4 is the most similar to Q2, but slower and lacking a few neat little tricks you could pull in Q2. The SP was weak, going along with the wannabe-blockbuster-film style quite a bit.
That's also why it failed as an MP game; every Quake player was looking forward to getting the same experience, and it just wasn't good enough. The whole power of the first 3 lies in the movement - for such a straight up shooter, in all 3 of them having a precise aim is strangely unimportant compared to your ability to move around quickly, predict your enemy's movement and time your powerups.
Its biggest problem though? The crappy FPS on even the best systems. Q1 through 3 all ran flawlessly even on mediocre systems and scaled incredibly well. Even with heavily modified (read: stripped and picmipped to the bone) configs it ran like shit. Just like Doom 3, 0 QA was done on that front, and it needed patching to be playable in MP. 1.1 did that, 1.2 made it good.
Now the movement wouldn't have been that big of a deal, had T4 been anywhere near as easily moddable as T3, but that wasn't the case either. Modding wasn't hard, but actually getting the mods to run on servers *and* clients without problems was.
That's why I and many others hated it. Not for being what it was, which was a fine game, but for being a completely unworthy sequel to what, at that time, was the most successful multiplayer game series ever. CoD is more successful by now
Most of you hated what they did to DA:O with DA2 as well right? Well, Q4 was just as bad, if not worse as that. Difference being that it had *three* predecessors that got it right. Why did it go wrong? Because it wasn't an id game, it was a Raven game.
Well, I don't care about multiplayer in general, never did actually (but I do like co-op games as long as the co-op isn't forced in the game just to be there). The game also ran very well, even on my old pc. The game felt very good for a shooter that came out in 2005, so from how I see it it was one of that games that you either love it or hate it (which is the case of the MP Quake fans mostly from what I understand?).
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Did you play it in 2005 straight at release? If not, your whole opinion is invalid - sorry. Like I said, before the first patch it ran absolutely horrible.
And again, in itself it would've been a fine game, but it should not have been called Quake 4. Giving it that name gives people expectations, and just like with Doom 3, it didn't live up to them. With the third major patch they fixed a lot, and with the fourth it became what it should've been at release, but it was too late then.
Good that you don't care about MP, but with it being the successor to three of the most successful multiplayer games, it had a name to live up to. Period. Noone played Q1, 2 or 3 mostly for its SP (although even on that front, the first two were definitely better for their time).
The whole power of the first 3 lies in the movement - for such a straight up shooter, in all 3 of them having a precise aim is strangely unimportant compared to your ability to move around quickly, predict your enemy's movement and time your powerups.
Erm, movement in Q4 is something between Q3 and CPMA, you could accelerate a lot if you knew how to do it combining ramp jumps and crouch slides.
The main issue were the system requirements and the fact that it was requiring a lot more for no real benefit in terms of gameplay. I even remember some finals where the observer was running full detail on a monster PC at that time and when players were moving fast through the map it couldn't keep constant 60 fps.
Erm, movement in Q4 is something between Q3 and CPMA, you could accelerate a lot if you knew how to do it combining ramp jumps and crouch slides.
Werelds wrote:
With the third major patch they fixed a lot, and with the fourth it became what it should've been at release, but it was too late then.
Patch 3 was in late 2006, patch 4 early 2007 somewhere. That video of yours is 1.4.2 - i.e. the latest.
Yeah ramp jumps were there (not new though) and so were crouch slides (which were new) in 1.0, but nowhere near effective enough until 1.3, also because 1.3 changed air acceleration (and just had a higher default value to begin with).
Yeah, I saw this yesterday. It basically ID masturbating to their legacy, instead of creating a game today, that is as cool as their old ones were. Rage looks pretty much like a snorefest, and I'm already way more hyped for Prey 2.
The gameplay bits in that video actually look better than anything shown before, either that's a lot of post-processing done on the video, or the game can look better than what they've shown so far. That said, it also made it clear that a lot of the textures they use are in fact of an awefully low resolution (like I've been saying). Thanks consoles, glad to have your limits imposed on us
The gameplay bits in that video actually look better than anything shown before, either that's a lot of post-processing done on the video, or the game can look better than what they've shown so far. That said, it also made it clear that a lot of the textures they use are in fact of an awefully low resolution (like I've been saying). Thanks consoles, glad to have your limits imposed on us
The machines are turning socialist! They want to be equal (to the lowest common denominator!) Down with the evil capitalist Uber PCs!
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I sure hope so 
).
