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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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 Posted: Fri, 27th May 2005 00:13 Post subject: |
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Imagine what fanboys can make out of a crappy FX-movie. Props to you darkl0rd for a creative mind, at least.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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anarxist
Banned
Posts: 4377
Location: Israel,born in the USSR
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 04:02 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | Darkl0rd wrote: |
Sacrificing your life for selfish reasons is a contradiction in itself.
He doesn't gain anything from it. He dies. It's an act of pure goodness.
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Are you trying to say that suicide bombers are good people?
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No. You're quoting me out of context.
I said sacrificing yourself to save another is an act of goodness, not sacrificing yourself to blow up people is.
| Siddhartha wrote: |
Three points:
1) I can see what you're saying, but it still seems hard to buy that Anakin would kill his friend Mace (and ignore the 4 dead jedis courtesy of Emperor Palpatine) for the slim chance that Palpatine was telling the truth. The same Palpatine who had lied to everyone through three movies and was playing both sides (which Anakin should have realized). It would be like sparing Saddam Hussein because he promised you the cure to AIDS to save your dying friend. Would you really turn against all of your friends and everything you were taught for a fool's chance? |
Anakin didn't kill Mace. He 'only' cut his hand off. He regrets it immediately thereafter, but before he can do anything else, palpatine kills Mace with anther lightning bolt.
As for the second part: Personally I believe that even a bastard like Saddam Hussein deserves a fair trial. If you just execute him on the spot, you're no better than him. You've become the monster that you're trying to fight.
In this sence, Mace isn't entirely innocent either.
| Siddhartha wrote: |
2) You mention that the Jedi aren't the bad guys. True, but from Anakin's perspective he seems to think less of the Jedi as the movie goes on. He thinks they're plotting to take over the Republic, scheming to get rid of Palpatine, and even said at the end to Obi-Wan that to him the Jedi were evil. Why would he think them incapable of taking his child, imprisoning Padme, etc. but capable to taking over the Republic for evil ends? I should think the Emperor could manipulate him to believe any number of things if he could be fooled into believing a Sith Lord could use the force to bring people back to life. |
Ok, is it isn't really true, if palpatine only makes anikn believe that the Jedi would harm the child, it could have worked.
Anyway, the whole Jedi putsch story isn't just for anakin, it also servers as an explanation for the public and the senate when palpatine declares himself emperor.
Why come up with 2 lies if you can achieve everything with 1? It would be twice the effort to make both appear as true.
| Siddhartha wrote: |
3) Since you're explaining Star Wars for us, could you explain why a half-built death star is in a movie set 20 years before eps 4-6? I could almost buy it as a glimpse of the future but they had the plans in ep 2. Had Palpatine been blowing up worlds for that 20 year stretch? Why did they seem so surprised to see it in Ep 4? |
Well... i can only speculate.
Firts of all, the death star isn't half-built, it a skeleton, or maybe a scaffolding,
Second it's not 20 years to ep 4, it's more like 16-17
Luke is already born, and he certainly isn't 20 in AnH.
It's a prototype. They had plans, sure, but lots of things might not work out they way they were planned. Building a prototype always is a lot of experimentation, trial and error, tests etc..
This alone might have cost them a decade or more.
When they build Death Star II, they had a working, field-tested design, they've already got everything figured out, so it could be done much faster.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 05:39 Post subject: |
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My point is that people who sacrifice themselves aren't always good.
In my opinion, Anakin/Darth was an evil person by heart. You just have to look at his actions as Darth Vader to see he enjoyed enforcing suffering on others.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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Ispep
VIP Member
Posts: 4117
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 14:56 Post subject: |
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Well, I posted this in the beginning:
| Quote: | | It is a drastic decision yes, but it was a very easy one to make because of the way it was set up by Sidious. Mace Windu was going to kill Anakins only chance of saving Padmes life. That was a really basic plot device that was not fleshed out nearly enough and provided the stimulas for his decision to stop Mace Windu (who was subsequently killed by Sidious not Anakin) |
It's just poor story telling on George Lucas' part.
Furthermore; Windu was a point of contention for Anakin who was becoming increasingly fustrated with the Jedi (in no small part thanks to Sidious and his nefarious meddling and influence). Mace Windu in particular wasn't comfortable with Anakin and his decision to kill instead of imprison will have confused the young and volatile Jedi.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 16:05 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | My point is that people who sacrifice themselves aren't always good. |
And I complely agree. All I sayed is that it is never selfish.
Suicide bombers usually are very poor people who do it because some terrorist organisation pays a lott of money to their family.
Of course what they are doing is absolutely evil, but it is not selfish. That's a difference.
| AnimalMother wrote: | | In my opinion, Anakin/Darth was an evil person by heart. |
We've already been there and I have comented on that.
You don't belive me. That's ok.
I suggest you listen to George Lucas' audio comentary on the SW DVDs. I'm sure you'll belive him. After all he has written the story and is the only one who realy knows what's going on.
It will help you understand Vader, Anakin and the Force better.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 16:52 Post subject: |
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Half the time lucas himself doesn't even know what he's going on about, as evidenced by the numerous plot holes in the star wars saga.
I think i'll just stick with my interpretation, as it makes it more entertaining for me.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 17:30 Post subject: |
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Darkl0rd, you talk of star-wars as if it were holy-bible itself. You quote it like so as well. :\You treat Lucas as if he were a deity probably you worship him like one as well. Nevertheless it's just a fucking movie with a poorly written storyline and no depth.
AnimalMother, you're right. It's a sci-fi movie and as all sci-fi movies, with very little detail, go it can be interpreted in anyway you want. =D
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:14 Post subject: |
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| Injurious wrote: | Nevertheless it's just a fucking movie with a poorly written storyline and no depth.
AnimalMother, you're right. It's a sci-fi movie and as all sci-fi movies, with very little detail, go it can be interpreted in anyway you want. =D |
The story is very good, but you have to try to understand it.
Unfortunately most Hollywood movies serve you the story on a silver plate. You can turn your brain off and still won't miss anything.
Personally, I enjoy stories that require you to pay attention and think about it, like Star Wars or the Matrix sequels.
The key to interpeting a story is trying to find out what the author wants to tell you.
If you purposely try to interpret something into it that isn't there (like AnimalMother does), you'll end up with a crappy story full of plot holes.
If your interpretation has plot hoes while others can come up with interpretations that don't, that's a good sign that there's something wrong with your interpretation.
If you try to realy understand it, you'll see that the story works and has no plot holes at all (well, except for one minor oversight).
If you didn't like the movie, that's fine. Nobody says you have to.
But if you say the story is full of plot holes and has no deatil, I can only tell you that you didn't understand it.
But since you don't seem to be interested in understanding it, this discussion is becoming quite pointless.
This isn't going anywhere.
If there's still someone who actually wants to talk about the movie, I'd be happy to continue.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:24 Post subject: |
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Haha, you shouldn't have to fabricate content to eliminate plotholes, the content should already be there. Pretty pathetic making excuses like that for a movie just because you like it.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:32 Post subject: |
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The story is very cliché, extremely predictable, and absolutely nothing a bored bunch of highschoolers couldn't have come up with. You call this a movie with brain? I suppose you've never seen anything but Steven Seagal-flicks in comparison then.
It's also interesting that you refer to the pseudo-philosophical babble displayed in the matrix-sequels as a reference point. What you get in the sequels is what you discuss in any philosophy 101-class, and the fact that it's really not that interesting (and unfortunately ruined by Keanu Reeves mediocre acting), don't get me wrong, it's not bad - it's just rather average.
I find it rather intriguing that you are intellectually challenged by Star Wars... really, I do. In-between the bad script, the horrendous acting by Hayden, and the pre-school adolescent dramaturgy, you may actually find a moment where some character actually says something with ... at least more depth than a puddle of water after a light spring rain.
Your making a cardinal error by trying to read something where nothing exists. Yes, I fully comprehend that there are people that interpret endless scenarios by looking at dadaism (for instance), say it's brilliant (etc.) - whereas they only display self-righteous crap to raise themselves above. I have seen the light! I have understood something beyond what is understandable by the average Joe! take heed, barbarians and heathens who do not see as I do!
I must say your creativity has become arrogance, and since I'm a really unpleasant (and rather mean) character, I have to counter it with equal measure.
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt though, for a moment at least. What is it, beyond the surface crust, that is so impressive about this sequel? Don't just throw "you just don't understand" about, it's not taking you beyond "illusioned fanboy".
Oh, by the way - I see no plot holes in this movie, it's just that whatever plot there is, is like a simple mans book. I'd have to give it to you though, SW3 IS the best in the first trilogy, it's by far the best performance Hayden has ever done in his life, and without a doubt the thickest intrigue in between episodes 1 through 3.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:35 Post subject: |
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Well, I alrady told Injurious that I won't discuss that any more, but I guess you deserve an answer as well. But that's the last thing I saying about that matter. It's really not going anywhere.
| AnimalMother wrote: | | Haha, you shouldn't have to fabricate content to eliminate plotholes, the content should already be there. Pretty pathetic making excuses like that for a movie just because you like it. |
You saied yourself that you're making up stuff beacuse you like it better that way. I'm not. I'm only looking at what's there.
If you get plot holes, it's beacuse of the things you made up (like anakin always being an evil person at heat, ignoring estabished facts about the nature of the force, arguing that evyerone in the movies is wrong or lying about it, etc..).
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:40 Post subject: |
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| Darkl0rd wrote: | You saied yourself that you're making up stuff beacuse you like it better that way. I'm not. I'm only looking at what's there.
If you get plot holes, it's beacuse of the things you made up (like anakin always being an evil person at heat, ignoring estabished facts about the nature of the force, arguing that evyerone in the movies is wrong or lying about it, etc..). |
You're looking at what's there, you say? Well, to us that's about as convincive as a religious zealot who just saw Ganesh (a big pink elephant with several arms).
Also, you're trying to convince us by saying: "Hey! There's a lot more to see, you just don't get it. There's no discussion here".
That's the oldest trick in the book for crazy fanatics, and there's been enough of those in this forum.
So, please motivate to us here what's so incredibly brilliant about the plot line. What's it got, that any ... rather average "good vs. evil" movie hasn't.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:43 Post subject: |
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Darkl0rd, star wars is riddled with holes. Black holes if you will. No matter how much extra content you throw at it, it will still be riddled with them.
As AnimalMother said, you shouldn't have to fabricate content to eliminate plotholes, the content should already be there.
For a movie to work it has to have everything right there in front of you. It doesn't make it a bad movie at all. It informs the audience makes the movie understandable only then can you go into the depth of it.
You can't go into the depths of a shallow pool.
You could try, but in the end you'll realize it's still a shallow pool. If you had a pick-axe and started digging you could create a deep hole and people might as well believe you, but by then you strayed away from the pool itself making your points as useless as they were before.
Lucas shouldn’t have to explain his movie to the audience. The movie, it self, should do that. If the movie fails then you have nothing.
Damn it, fisk! I hate you, but at the same time I love you! 
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:50 Post subject: |
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I agree with fisk and injurious, step up to the plate and show us the light.
Trees with strong roots grow slowly up, but quickly outwards.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 18:54 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 19:01 Post subject: |
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Life is a blank painting, the viewer paints whater he wants.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 19:06 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | The story is very cliché, extremely predictable |
No doubt about that. It's nothing new, but what makes it interesting for me is that it takes well known motives from various sources (from fairy tales over folklore to greek tragedy) and combines them in an interseting way.
The gardual transition for a good person becoming evil is done quite good, although the Dark Side that takes controll of you of course is a rather cheap plot device. But that's not realy a problem, since the focus of the movies is on the path to the dark side, which ultimately is a concios decision by anakin, despite the fact that his intentions are good.
It's an epic struggle between good and evil, but not only on the outside with noble heros and cruel villians, it focuses on the heros inner struggle with his own dark side.
As I see it, the Dark Side of the Force simply is symbolic for our own hate and greed and dark urges. Either we controll them or they end up controlling us.
Of course it is cliché, but done in and fresh, intesting way.
I also found palpatines political intrigues, that started in Ep 1 with his dael with the trade federation and ended with him becoming emperor with standing ovations from the senate, very well done.
It's the same methods used by Hitler, Stalin or Julius Caesar.
Sure it's not detailed as extensive as, say in Babylon 5, but with 6 hours screen time and the focus of the story on anakin, it's done quite well.
| fisk wrote: | | It's also interesting that you refer to the pseudo-philosophical babble displayed in the matrix-sequels as a reference point. What you get in the sequels is what you discuss in any philosophy 101-class, and the fact that it's really not that interesting (and unfortunately ruined by Keanu Reeves mediocre acting), don't get me wrong, it's not bad - it's just rather average. |
Sure, but give the usuall superficial hollywood crap, it's a welcome change.
If anything, the fact that I use this avarage move as an example for movies that requires you to think, prooves how shallow the crap is that they usually try to feed us.
| fisk wrote: | | I must say your creativity has become arrogance, |
That was not my intention, but if someone tells me that he disregard everything George Lucas says in the DVD comentaries and rather uses his own version, it's quite obvious that he doesn't even try to understand it.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 19:53 Post subject: |
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| Darkl0rd wrote: |
That was not my intention, but if someone tells me that he disregard everything George Lucas says in the DVD comentaries and rather uses his own version, it's quite obvious that he doesn't even try to understand it. |
Interpreting something differently to another person, and fabricating content so that something makes sense are completely different. I never said I make things up, as I don't, I just interpret it differently. Maybe you should look that word up.
The plot is rather simple, there is nothing there that I need explained to me. Most of the time the actions and dialogue are pretty ambigious anyway, probably due to a crap script, so interpretations can vary wildly.
You keep going on as if you know these things for certain, but in fact you know shit. There is so little exposition of Anakin and Padme's relationship that there is no way you can say "oh yeah, he did it totally for love, he was so honorable blah blah". Because there is no definitive proof.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 20:02 Post subject: |
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A director must convince his audience, not throw a bunch of shit together and ask people to interpret it - what Lucas really is doing is begging the question, and that takes no talent beyond clicking frenetically at filters in photoshop and calling it art.
Yes, it's got lots of colour in it.
Yes, you may say it has some visual quality to it.
Some people actually can call it art.
Relatively, you can call absolutely ANYTHING art.
But relatively, Hayden Christensen is an amazing actor.
Let's relate to what's actually culturally available.
In that context, this movie is bad, bad, bad.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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hahe
Posts: 1685
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 22:34 Post subject: |
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Bah I stop reading this argument after the 2nd post of this page cause now it's starting to turn into just bashing each other. Lets just leave at this. If you like it, fine. If you hate it, fine. It's all our opinion. I enjoyed the movie so I think it's a good movie. My opinion and I won't convince someone else that it is.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th May 2005 23:04 Post subject: |
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Star.Wars.Episode.III.Revenge.of.the.Sith.TC.XviD-MoF
^---- anyone yet confirmed the source / quality?
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2005 01:48 Post subject: |
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| johto wrote: | Star.Wars.Episode.III.Revenge.of.the.Sith.TC.XviD-MoF
^---- anyone yet confirmed the source / quality? |
http://www.vcdquality.com/index.php?page=sample&id=52520
Do you people have nothing better to do than argue over a sci-fi movie??
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2005 19:52 Post subject: |
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| johto wrote: | Star.Wars.Episode.III.Revenge.of.the.Sith.TC.XviD-MoF
^---- anyone yet confirmed the source / quality? |
added in list of releases, discussion about the MoF-rls here: http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11585
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| Posted: Mon, 30th May 2005 00:29 Post subject: |
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Darkl0rd,
Since you've taken the time to study through all of the materials surrounding the movies, could you explain a few other things...
1) Why the hell didn't Anakin or the Jedis go back to Tatooine to buy his mom? I understand the whole "no attachments" clause of being a Jedi, but why the hell would you leave your mom a slave on a desert planet for 10+ years or whatever? Felt like a plot hole...
2) For that matter, why wouldn't he know SOMETHING about his mom in the 10+ years he was away? You'd think she could give him a space call or something...is it that hard to call the Jedi temple? The fact that he had to look for her on Tatooine (especially after the bad dreams) felt like a huge plot hole. On the positive side, I'm glad his mom died because she really got on my nerves in both Ep 1 & 2.
3) The whole "balancing the force" issue. Anakin was the one who would bring balance back to the force...um, what? I couldn't understand how the Jedi thought that "balancing the force" meant eliminating the Sith...there were only 2 Sith! He certainly balanced the force by helping kill most of the Jedi, but its just the whole logic behind it was stupid. Balancing something usually involves roughly equal numbers...there were a lot more Jedi...the math was fuzzy.
Anyhow, if you have logical explanations I'd enjoy hearing them because it just seemed rather sloppy to me.
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| Posted: Mon, 30th May 2005 02:13 Post subject: |
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