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 Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:12 Post subject: |
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| JBeckman wrote: | The 6990 is as you likely know a Crossfire card (Ca 2x 6950 in terms of speed if I remember correctly.) and with this game lacking a SLI (And Crossfire.) profile and at worst having the game engine somewhat incompatible with either this leads to really bad scaling which causes these micro stuttering issues.
Unless you meant the small stutter at the start of each level before the map is fully loaded.
(I get that too but then it works just fine - other than what I wrote earlier about the mid-part of the last level seeing rather frequent framerate drops unfortunately.)
Still a profile update or the 11.11 Catalyst might take care of that, likely a profile release though as the 11.11 beta drivers I use don't have a profile for this game. |
As I said, I get the heavy stutter on my ATI 5870 AND 6990. I tested it with multiple drivers on the 5870, with or without profiles.
It's not about loading resources, or at least it doesn't seem to be about that. As it's not related to time - but rather location. I can stay at the Inn at the beginning, and the stuttering continues until I get out or near the exit. Not really sure what the fuck it is.
On my pathetic Nvidia GT330M - it runs quite smooth with absolutely no stuttering.
I haven't tested it on my GTX260 - but I guess I can do that to make sure.
I have nothing against ATI personally, which is why I've had several of their cards (from 9800 and on) - but there's no denying they have poor driver support - or maybe the developers don't do what's required to support ATI drivers fully. Yes, they eventually fix things - but I'm not the sort of gamer who gives a shit about that.
I want new games to work UPON release, not weeks or months later.
Now, I played pretty much every single medium-major PC release since 1993 - if for no other reason than to simply test them - and I've been switching between Nvidia and ATI since Doom 3.
Nvidia cards are not perfect, and they're generally more expensive. But overall, they have FAR fewer issues. I don't really care about the why's and the how's.
That's just what it is.
This "microstuttering" multi-GPU obsession is not the cause of every evil out there, ok? 
Last edited by Casus on Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:17; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:16 Post subject: |
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I've had the same problem with a HD5850 and 11.9.
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JBeckman
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Posts: 35812
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:20 Post subject: |
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Could be something with compatibility on older cards then or maybe it is a driver issue after all, would be problematic if so however AMD/ATI isn't that good at supporting "older" hardware from my experience, Crossfire especially seems to scale pretty poorly in comparison to the 6000 series for example in these later drivers.
(Easy to verify just by reading all the supposed Crossfire issues people report every single time a new driver is released, unsure how that works for NVIDIA but I assume the 7000 and 8000 - 9000 cards are mostly just there without any real driver benefits, probably better for the 200 and 400 models, which is still quite good.)
(Not that good with the hardware and architecture of the 5000 series but it could be something there as well, 6000 series is fairly similar but fixes a few things like the in comparison rather slow tessellation performance to name one of the more known things.)
EDIT: Right I forgot about one thing, ATI/AMD are as you said pretty slow with supporting games at release, some larger and more well known games and their own "sponsored" titles are a exception but otherwise it's fairly sluggish.
(Those application profiles they've started with works but it should be integrated in the CCC framework and updated from there, ideally weekly.)
EDIT: Still 10.10 and later are improving (Likely there's a lot of stuff before then as well and of course the .blob archives for the app profiles which I can't read efficiently.) such as support for LA Noire, Serious Sam 3, Bioshock Infinite and a few other things I'm not 100% sure what they are.
(Just to name the latest titles I remember when I checked the leaked second 11.11 drivers and it's files.)
(CCC performance have also improved a lot recently, used to be rather slow earlier and take a lot of ram.)
Though with the continued problems of AMD I wonder how things will go from here, Bulldozer's first release (Refreshes are planned up until 2013 and probably later, each improving upon the previous model.) didn't go that well either.
Last edited by JBeckman on Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:30; edited 4 times in total
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W123
Posts: 2668
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:22 Post subject: |
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I had heavy stuttering @ Barrow Downs and not much elsewhere. Just a single 5770 here... just poor optimization.
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JBeckman
VIP Member
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:33 Post subject: |
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Barrow Downs (One of my favorite levels.) wasn't too bad here with the obvious exception of the wraith creatures and their stone barrier and the end boss battle with both that and a shockwave type attack.
Not much stuttering though but it did affect framerate though it remained playable.
(Unsure how the game is optimized, wasn't this the engine from Bard's Tale though updated? Might be why it's a bit ineffective and sluggish, hopefully drivers can improve upon this and even more hopefully a patch will be released shortly, might not happen though.)
(EDIT: Unsure what to compare that to, Source Engine with FakeFactory perhaps, it works and it looks OK but it's not very efficient with it? Probably a bit too extreme of a example.)
(Should probably check how multi-core efficient the game is along with GPU usage, kinda like Oblivion / Gamebryo, heh that might be another poor example though.)
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:38 Post subject: |
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| JBeckman wrote: | Could be something with compatibility on older cards then or maybe it is a driver issue after all, would be problematic if so however AMD/ATI isn't that good at supporting "older" hardware from my experience, Crossfire especially seems to scale pretty poorly in comparison to the 6000 series for example in these later drivers.
(Easy to verify just by reading all the supposed Crossfire issues people report every single time a new driver is released, unsure how that works for NVIDIA but I assume the 7000 and 8000 - 9000 cards are mostly just there without any real driver benefits, probably better for the 200 and 400 models, which is still quite good.)
(Not that good with the hardware and architecture of the 5000 series but it could be something there as well, 6000 series is fairly similar but fixes a few things like the in comparison rather slow tessellation performance to name one of the more known things.)
EDIT: Right I forgot about one thing, ATI/AMD are as you said pretty slow with supporting games at release, some larger and more well known games and their own "sponsored" titles are a exception but otherwise it's fairly sluggish.
(Those application profiles they've started with works but it should be integrated in the CCC framework and updated from there, ideally weekly.)
EDIT: Still 10.10 and later are improving (Likely there's a lot of stuff before then as well and of course the .blob archives for the app profiles which I can't read efficiently.) such as support for LA Noire, Serious Sam 3, Bioshock Infinite and a few other things I'm not 100% sure what they are.
(Just to name the latest titles I remember when I checked the leaked second 11.11 drivers and it's files.)
(CCC performance have also improved a lot recently, used to be rather slow earlier and take a lot of ram.)
Though with the continued problems of AMD I wonder how things will go from here, Bulldozer's first release (Refreshes are planned up until 2013 and probably later, each improving upon the previous model.) didn't go that well either. |
Yeah, who knows - really.
As I said, I'm 100% brand/platform neutral. I'm what you would call extremely pragmatic. Either something works or it doesn't.
As with everything, all brands have "bad" releases - which goes for every kind of product in the world.
So, I have zero loyalty - just experience.
Given their prices, I would always prefer ATI - except for this driver shit, and the developer favoritism, which seems quite clear to me.
PhysX is a pointless greed-driven thing that Nvidia has ensured for themselves, but unfortunately it does make a difference in a few games. Very few games, yes, but games are ultimately all I care about.
I don't want to play Batman Arkham Asylum or Arkham City without ALL the goodies. It's the reason I invest my money in expensive hardware. 3D vision is gimmicky, but it's a nice toy that's working RIGHT NOW.
Eyefinity is probably great too, but I have no use for it personally.
Unfortunately, this means that Nvidia stands as the clear winner today - from my point of view.
Sadly, I already invested in my 6990 - even though I knew I'd be facing driver issues. I guess I just hoped it would be a while until I found a game that had serious ATI issues again (last time was Rage). But War in the North has it, and I'm annoyed.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:41 Post subject: |
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Just to throw some oil on the fire:
- Look at the official forums, just as many NVIDIA users suffering there
- Using a different input method (gamepad) seems to help for some, but not everyone (probably related to relative power of the PC)
- GPU usage for everyone suffering from the issue, regardless of "side", is extremely low while CPU usage is fully maxed out
- People with switchable mobile graphics experience the same thing, can fix it by forcing usage of the discrete GPU (both sides)
- Increasing virtual memory pool seems to help; still stutters at load, dissipates after that (both sides)
Shit programming, simple as that. It has console port written all over it. It might occur more frequently on AMD in this case, but they're not the problem. Had it been one specific range of cards, then yeah it could've been a driver issue. But if *everything* from one side is affected, that's not a driver issue anymore, that's shoddy work from the developer.
And while I'm at it, I'm sure most G80/G92 users are glad they still can't play BF3. Guess that's not a driver issue though, because NVIDIA don't have issues, right? 
I don't have tinted glasses, I just can't stand the fucking hypocrisy that goes on in all this NVIDIA vs. AMD shit. Coming from someone who's had 9 NVIDIA cards over the last 15 years, versus 4 ATI cards (counting a glorious ATI Mach64 as well just for the hell of it).
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 10:49 Post subject: |
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I generally go by my own experience, as I don't trust people I don't know well enough.
No one is saying that Nvidia cards don't have issues - just that they have fewer issues.
The easiest thing in the world is to find support for your claims on the internet. Every single PC release in modern times will have an official or unofficial forum - and there you will find hundreds or thousands of people claiming they have zero issues EXCEPT with the game in question. They will have a tale for every single scenario that fits their personal preferences for what they want reality to be.
I trust my own experience, and I have absolutely zero doubt that ATI cards have more issues, but whether it's due to hardware, drivers, developer incompetence, or developer indifference - I have no idea. I don't care in the least about WHY.
You claimed it was a multi-GPU issue, and we've just established that it can't be. That's enough for me to understand that you have an agenda - for whatever reason.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 11:25 Post subject: |
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I said it was a multi-GPU issues because you were talking about micro stuttering. Micro stuttering does only, and I mean literally ONLY, occurs with DUAL GPU setups - it does not exist on single GPU setups nor does it on multi-GPU setups beyond two (at least in games where Tri-/Quad- SLI/CFX work). It is a problem inherent to AFR with two GPUs and simply does not exist elsewhere.
Maybe I should've said this in my previous post, but from your post after my first one it's obviously NOT micro stuttering. It's stuttering, but not micro stuttering. The problem is not my statement, but the information I had at the time. You obviously just don't know what micro stuttering really is (as most people don't, so don't worry about it), so yeah I was wrong about it being a multi-GPU issue, because I assumed you actually *were* referring to micro stuttering. I'm not wrong about it being a shit console port though.
I would elaborate on micro stuttering, but it's pointless since it's not occurring here.
And no, I don't have an agenda; I've been recommending 570's to quite a few people recently, as they've dropped in price, making them more attractive value-wise than a 6970, putting them on the same level as a 6950 value-wise (which means it depends on budget which one I recommend). If the above makes you think I have an agenda, I might just as well say the same thing as you, as you're trying your best to blame AMD and justify a decision to drop the 6990 and replace it with NVIDIA.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 11:30 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | I said it was a multi-GPU issues because you were talking about micro stuttering. Micro stuttering does only, and I mean literally ONLY, occurs with DUAL GPU setups - it does not exist on single GPU setups nor does it on multi-GPU setups beyond two (at least in games where Tri-/Quad- SLI/CFX work). It is a problem inherent to AFR with two GPUs and simply does not exist elsewhere. |
No, and this is the second time you read "microstuttering" without me actually saying it. I said "horror-stuttering", because it's incredibly bad stuttering.
| Quote: | Maybe I should've said this in my previous post, but from your post after my first one it's obviously NOT micro stuttering. It's stuttering, but not micro stuttering. The problem is not my statement, but the information I had at the time. You obviously just don't know what micro stuttering really is (as most people don't, so don't worry about it), so yeah I was wrong about it being a multi-GPU issue, because I assumed you actually *were* referring to micro stuttering. I'm not wrong about it being a shit console port though.
I would elaborate on micro stuttering, but it's pointless since it's not occurring here. |
We've already been through this, and the last time it was Deus Ex 3 - where you insisted it was a multi-gpu issue.
I HAVEN'T said microstuttering, and I have no idea why you want to conjure up that to defend your own misunderstanding.
| Quote: | | And no, I don't have an agenda; I've been recommending 570's to quite a few people recently, as they've dropped in price, making them more attractive value-wise than a 6970, putting them on the same level as a 6950 2GB value-wise (which means it depends on budget which one I recommend). If the above makes you think I have an agenda, I might just as well say the same thing as you, as you're trying your best to blame AMD and justify a decision to drop the 6990 and replace it with NVIDIA. |
It's ok if you want to believe I have an agenda. But I'm not the one making false claims.
Now, if you misread my problem as micro-stuttering, then I understand - and I retract my accusation.
Not that I don't think it's very odd how you can't see the very obvious ATI problems vs. the less severe Nvidia problems - but it's not really important.
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Kaltern
Posts: 5859
Location: Lockerbie, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 11:52 Post subject: |
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I'm getting the horrid stuttering too, 5870 here, single GPU.
I wonder if all these bloody revisions and 'preview' drivers with their AAA title game tweaks and optimization's are causing issues with other games?
Playing Valheim every weekday at 10pm GMT - twitch.tv/kaltern
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it... @kaltern
My system: Ryzen 7 3700x|Gigabyte RTX 2080 Super Windforce OC|Vengeance 3000Mz 16Gb RAM|2x 500Gb Samsung EVO 970 M.2 SSD |SanDisk SSD PLUS 240 GB + OCZ Vertex 2 60Gb SSD|EVA Supernova 650W PSU|Logitech G27 Wheel|Logitech G19 Gaming Pad|SteelSeries Arctis 7|Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum Mouse + Logitech MX Master Mouse|Razer Blackwidow Chroma X Keyboard|Oculus Quest 2 + Link|Pixio PX7 Prime 165hz HDR & 1x Samsung 24FG70FQUEN 144Hz curved monitor
-= Word to the wise: Having a higher forum post does not mean you are right. =-
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gromar
Posts: 696
Location: Neverland
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:01 Post subject: |
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runs really smooth on Q6600 + gtx295 (everything on max 1680x1050)
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:06 Post subject: |
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| Casus wrote: | | No, and this is the second time you read "microstuttering" without me actually saying it. I said "horror-stuttering", because it's incredibly bad stuttering. |
You're right, I misread that, my apologies for that.
Just out of interest though, have you tried the standard things? Play with CPU affinity (start game, alttab, force it to run on just your 4th core or something). I'm just reading too much issues to be able to call this a one-sided driver issue. There is not enough consistency for that, apart from it all being the same game).
| Casus wrote: | | It's ok if you want to believe I have an agenda. But I'm not the one making false claims. |
I said I *could* say that, but I'm not because you're just frustrated with the problems you're having, which is understandable 
| Casus wrote: | | Not that I don't think it's very odd how you can't see the very obvious ATI problems vs. the less severe Nvidia problems - but it's not really important. |
Less severe? Hardly. What exactly is less severe? AMD haven't had drivers causing fans not to spin up (or spin at 100% speed). Where AMD may release drivers slower than NVIDIA, NVIDIA also have more frequent "display driver has stopped responding and has been reset" messages, which are often quickly fixed by a driver update. I don't think it's less severe on either side, just different. And like I said, I've had to roll back drivers tons of times with my G80, G92's and my 460 for the same reasons a lot of people have to roll back from Catalyst updates.
I'm just frustrated because just because people don't experience issues, doesn't mean they're not there, just like just because people on one "side" do experience issues doesn't mean it's caused by an external factor. I didn't experience a single hitch with DX:HR, doesn't mean other people (including you) didn't. Apart from RadeonPro causing a crash (or rather, Rage sticking its memory access where it doesn't belong), I also had 0 issues with Rage. Still doesn't mean it didn't have issues. In the case of DX:HR it was fixed by EM, not by drivers. In the case of Rage, well...
The problem is that too often people point at the drivers and while both NVIDIA and AMD often do fix shit with drivers, it's also mostly not their fault. Alpha Protocol is another perfect example. In all three cases I just mentioned (DX:HR, Rage, AP) it's a lack of optimisation and testing (and I *loved* DX:HR).
Last edited by Werelds on Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:08; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:11 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | Overlord123 wrote: |
 Spoiler: | You are in for a big disappointment, there are only like 7 or 8 places you can visit. It's rather short, really. The dwarf fortress is the last town in the game if you are there already, you have finished like 90% of the game. |
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B..bu...but... whaaaaa?? All those map locations! There's tons! Please don't tell me they're just for LORE?? Oh maaaaaaaaaaan. That's fucking harsh   |
I'm sorry to say, but yes they are just for reading. I was disappointed too, but the game is not called War in the North for nothing, it's really just the north.
I was lvl 21 after finishing the game, you can start a new game with your party on the next difficulty, though, kinda like a newgame+.
Last edited by Overlord123 on Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:12; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:12 Post subject: |
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| Kaltern wrote: | I'm getting the horrid stuttering too, 5870 here, single GPU.
I wonder if all these bloody revisions and 'preview' drivers with their AAA title game tweaks and optimization's are causing issues with other games? |
Dunno, I'm using standard 11.9 drivers and I get the stuttering too. HD5850.
Though I haven't even left the first tavern to see if it gets better/worse. Waiting for patch.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:13 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:16 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | Casus wrote: | | No, and this is the second time you read "microstuttering" without me actually saying it. I said "horror-stuttering", because it's incredibly bad stuttering. |
You're right, I misread that, my apologies for that. |
No worries, we all make mistakes
| Quote: | | Just out of interest though, have you tried the standard things? Play with CPU affinity (start game, alttab, force it to run on just your 4th core or something). I'm just reading too much issues to be able to call this a one-sided driver issue. There is not enough consistency for that, apart from it all being the same game). |
No, I haven't had a chance to do much experimenting since I got my 6990 card. My CPU cooler (stock crap) fucked up yesterday, and I spent the entire day trying to remount it correctly. I have to go buy a new one today, so I can play around with things.
I think this War in the North is typical console bullshit, where the effort spent on making the PC version work optimally on various setups is minimal.
| Casus wrote: | | I said I *could* say that, but I'm not because you're just frustrated with the problems you're having, which is understandable |
Glad to hear it
| Quote: | | Less severe? Hardly. What exactly is less severe? AMD haven't had drivers causing fans not to spin up (or spin at 100% speed). Where AMD may release drivers slower than NVIDIA, NVIDIA also have more frequent "display driver has stopped responding and has been reset" messages, which are often quickly fixed by a driver update. I don't think it's less severe on either side, just different. And like I said, I've had to roll back drivers tons of times with my G80, G92's and my 460 for the same reasons a lot of people have to roll back from Catalyst updates. |
I understand where you're coming from, and I don't really think there's much use in debating these things. We obviously have different perceptions on this issue and that's ok. I have a lot of "anecdotal" evidence to back up my experience, but what use is that - really?
All I know is what I've seen and what I've heard, and I'm convinced that ATI users have more issues in general. But that's just my point of view, and I have no stake in it that makes me want to debate it endlessly.
| Quote: | I'm just frustrated because just because people don't experience issues, doesn't mean they're not there, just like just because people on one "side" do experience issues doesn't mean it's caused by an external factor. I didn't experience a single hitch with DX:HR, doesn't mean other people (including you) didn't. Apart from RadeonPro causing a crash (or rather, Rage sticking its memory access where it doesn't belong), I also had 0 issues with Rage. Still doesn't mean it didn't have issues. In the case of DX:HR it was fixed by EM, not by drivers. In the case of Rage, well...
The problem is that too often people point at the drivers and while both NVIDIA and AMD often do fix shit with drivers, it's also mostly not their fault. Alpha Protocol is another perfect example. In all three cases I just mentioned (DX:HR, Rage, AP) it's a lack of optimisation and testing (and I *loved* DX:HR). |
I understand your frustation, and obviously there's a SHITTON of misinformation out there. I would never use the bickering and bitching of anonymous people for any kind of validity. I have to see things for myself, and I have to know people on a personal level - before I assign any value to their "stories".
All I can tell you is that I'm not trying to push an agenda, and I honestly don't consider myself biased.
But based on how you word your opinion, I sense you're of a similar mind. We simply haven't had the same experiences, and that's ok with me
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 12:17 Post subject: |
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JBeckman
VIP Member
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Location: Sweden
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65399
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 15:05 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Warner Bros. has confirmed it has made a round of layoffs at its Washington-based game development studios.
The cuts reportedly impacted staff at FEAR developer Monolith and The Lord of the Rings: War in the North maker Snowblind Studios.
3D Realms co-founder George Broussard broke the news via his Twitter account, putting the cuts at around "60ish" staff. |
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/325270/warner-cuts-staff-at-fear-lotr-developers/ |
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LuckyStrike
Posts: 1753
Location: Somewhere in the Portuguese Colonial Empire
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 20:16 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | Yeah it's definitely come as quite a shock. Like you, I also found a couple of map fragments and kept hoping there would be more, opening up more areas to explore, instead - challenge maps. There are SO many locations in the game but you can only visit maybe 10% of them That's a real downer as I truly was enjoying the game immensely. |
Well im level 12 on the ettermors, and im enjoying it a lot, it helps that ive got it maxed with no sttutering at all, unlike some ppl are complaining. Guess its all about fun combat and a fair share of loot.
But when in development, i was hoping for a more open world like in fallout 3  , were you could adventure at leisure, roaming the north, planning ambushes etc. But in spite being too much limited (wait! what isnt this days?) im still having fun. 
| Epsilon wrote: | | Meanwhile the people of that generation will call those guys relics, and not move with the times when everything is auto fucking. |
| EyePatchLives wrote: | | Press X to tame beasts. YOU ARE DA BEASTMASTER!!! |
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| Posted: Mon, 7th Nov 2011 22:00 Post subject: |
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| LuckyStrike wrote: | | But in spite being too much limited (wait! what isnt this days?) |
Skyrim isn't |
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65399
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue, 8th Nov 2011 03:59 Post subject: |
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I played for a while and despite the very consolized interface/gameplay it can be fun indeed (if you like the genre obviously).
Sadly I got bored pretty soon as always happens with this kind of games, guess it's more entertaining if played in co-op (which is what the game is designed for, imo).
The performance was really good though, no stuttering nor framerate issues of any kind
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kretenBG
Posts: 434
Location: Bulgaria and no, I don't want screens!
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| Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2011 00:03 Post subject: |
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Lord.of.the.Rings.War.in.the.North-RELOADED
In your language: Eat lead, laddies!
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