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 Posted: Thu, 15th Dec 2011 23:58 Post subject: |
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| Horrordee wrote: | With the likes of XFUSENET being entirely free, usenet doesn't have to cost a penny (gotta be a bit patent though!)
Anyone using BT is a fool (unless it's a TRUST private tracker!) |
Well, most private torrent trackers have a ToS that you must accept when you register that prevents the companies from pursuing the users on the site legally. So basically, if you are on a closed private tracker, you're probably much safer than using TPB.
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Grouch
Posts: 74
Location: Mississausage, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 00:57 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | So say I own the game (GoG version, no DRM), but the shitty GoG downloader is shitty, so I download it from PirateBay. Are they 100% sure I have downloaded the game illegally?  |
I'm almost 100% sure that their system IS NOT 100% accurate, but you would still have the GoG confirmation email and/or credit card receipt to say you bought the game so it's a non issue right?
| consolitis wrote: | | iNatan wrote: | | So say I own the game, but the shitty GoG downloader is shitty, so I download it from PirateBay. Are they 100% sure I have downloaded the game illegally? |
So if I get on the train without a ticket because I left it home, this means I have boarded it illegally? |
| iNatan wrote: | | No, and if someone accuses you, you can indeed blame it on their shitty system for not having a record of the ticket. But durrs gonna hurr. |
It doesn't matter because it's your fault for forgetting to bring the ticket so you should get charged. Here in Ontario, even if you have valid car insurance, if a police officer stops you for whatever reason, and you cannot produce an up to date insurance card you will be fined: no if's, and's, or but's.
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templ
Posts: 256
Location: Sirius
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 04:10 Post subject: |
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To people making the argument that this is unfair and that they should only be able to charge pirates the retail fee of the game: that's not how the punishment of ANY crime works, in ANY modern legal system.
If you steal something from a store and get caught by the police, they don't give you the option to just return the item, and then let you go without any further consequences. If you sell $1,000 worth of bootleg DVDs and get caught, you can't just pay the studio that owns the movies $1,000 and have that be the end of it. If you kidnap a child, you can't just give it back to the parents. If you intentionally kill your neighbor's dog, you can't just buy them a new one and erase your crime. If you drive a car without a license and get caught, they're not going to let you off the hook if you promise to wait until you get one to drive again.
The punishment should fit the crime, yes, but that doesn't mean that the two are going to be exactly equal, or that performing the lawful equivalent of the criminal act afterwords counts as restitution for the crime, by itself. No criminal punishment works this way. Why should copyright infringement?
| iNatan wrote: | | So say I own the game (GoG version, no DRM), but the shitty GoG downloader is shitty, so I download it from PirateBay. Are they 100% sure I have downloaded the game illegally? |
If you download it from PirateBay, yes, you downloaded it illegally, even if you own it. Owning a game doesn't entitle you to download a pirated copy of it. In fact, it makes literally zero difference, legally. You're not legally entitled to download MP3s of vinyl records you own, for instance.
You're typically entitled to create your own copy for your own personal use or backup using your own means, but you're NOT entitled to acquire it from any source whatsoever. IP law doesn't work this way.
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 05:01 Post subject: |
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| Cedge wrote: | | If you sell $1,000 worth of bootleg DVDs and get caught, you can't just pay the studio that owns the movies $1,000 and have that be the end of it. If you kidnap a child, you can't just give it back to the parents. If you intentionally kill your neighbor's dog, you can't just buy them a new one and erase your crime. If you drive a car without a license and get caught, they're not going to let you off the hook if you promise to wait until you get one to drive again. |
hey  you realize that not a single one of those examples is theft right?
selling bootleg DVDs ironically enough is the one example where an inflated amount might be appropriate, especially if the person is selling a lot of them, but it's not theft, it's unlawful use and distribution of a copyrighted work, not theft.
Last edited by fuckit on Fri, 16th Dec 2011 05:38; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 05:12 Post subject: |
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If you steal something real, it's gone.. used, vanished, not there anymore.
If you kill something, it is also dead, gone, can't be used for much anymore, maybe food.
If you copy something, the original is left undamaged, this is something that the lawmakers just doesn't "get".
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NeHoMaR
Posts: 855
Location: In my house.
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 06:27 Post subject: |
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| fuckit wrote: | | Cedge wrote: | | If you sell $1,000 worth of bootleg DVDs and get caught, you can't just pay the studio that owns the movies $1,000 and have that be the end of it. If you kidnap a child, you can't just give it back to the parents. If you intentionally kill your neighbor's dog, you can't just buy them a new one and erase your crime. If you drive a car without a license and get caught, they're not going to let you off the hook if you promise to wait until you get one to drive again. |
hey you realize that not a single one of those examples is theft right?
selling bootleg DVDs ironically enough is the one example where an inflated amount might be appropriate, especially if the person is selling a lot of them, but it's not theft, it's unlawful use and distribution of a copyrighted work, not theft. |
I know. I agree, copyright is not the same as traditional theft. I never said anything even remotely to the contrary. That was my point with those examples: that in a variety of different types of crime, the punishment isn't exactly equal to the apparent damage done. That's never how punishment of crime has been, and I don't see why it shouldn't extend to copyright infringement. (Also, I like how you removed the example of actual theft, and then acted like I didn't have an example of actual theft.)
You're making strawman arguments, obfuscating the point, and dodging the actual core of the issue.
Pirating a game is unlawful use of a copyrighted work, and is a crime in pretty much every country in the world.
| Namarie wrote: | If you steal something real, it's gone.. used, vanished, not there anymore.
If you kill something, it is also dead, gone, can't be used for much anymore, maybe food.
If you copy something, the original is left undamaged, this is something that the lawmakers just doesn't "get". |
You're right, it's not the same as those crimes. But it's still a crime, and people caught doing it should still be subjected to punishment. Is there really any arguing against that?
| NeHoMaR wrote: | I don't get it, why pay +1000$ for a 50$ game?  The law has no logic.
Logic = You steal 50$, you pay 50$. |
Name me a crime that gets punished like that. See above. If you steal a $50 game from a store and get caught, you can't pay them $50 and get off the hook. Yes, copyright infringement is different, but I don't see why it should be exempt from this rule.
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 07:33 Post subject: |
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Paying to be able to download a game /movie etc (usenet) is pretty much against idea of piracy. Can't blame torrent users.
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Grouch
Posts: 74
Location: Mississausage, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 09:14 Post subject: |
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| Namarie wrote: | If you steal something real, it's gone.. used, vanished, not there anymore.
If you kill something, it is also dead, gone, can't be used for much anymore, maybe food.
If you copy something, the original is left undamaged, this is something that the lawmakers just doesn't "get". |
You are right of course with the physical part.
But let's say we are both in university and writing an exam. Since you are much smarter than I am, and much better prepared for the exam, I copy your answers(I spent all night drinking and I'm much dumber than you are). I didn't physically steal your test sheet, but I have the potential to get same score as you with little to no effort; should I get punished if I get caught?
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 10:37 Post subject: |
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| Grouch wrote: | | Namarie wrote: | If you steal something real, it's gone.. used, vanished, not there anymore.
If you kill something, it is also dead, gone, can't be used for much anymore, maybe food.
If you copy something, the original is left undamaged, this is something that the lawmakers just doesn't "get". |
You are right of course with the physical part.
But let's say we are both in university and writing an exam. Since you are much smarter than I am, and much better prepared for the exam, I copy your answers(I spent all night drinking and I'm much dumber than you are). I didn't physically steal your test sheet, but I have the potential to get same score as you with little to no effort; should I get punished if I get caught? |
no...i don't think you should get punished...everybody has am asset in life...some have money others have brain others know how to bet by in life.
If you didn't know 1 answer in the exam and you could have cheated and you didn't that makes you pretty stupid imo
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 10:46 Post subject: |
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| Cedge wrote: | To people making the argument that this is unfair and that they should only be able to charge pirates the retail fee of the game: that's not how the punishment of ANY crime works, in ANY modern legal system.
If you steal something from a store and get caught by the police, they don't give you the option to just return the item, and then let you go without any further consequences. If you sell $1,000 worth of bootleg DVDs and get caught, you can't just pay the studio that owns the movies $1,000 and have that be the end of it. If you kidnap a child, you can't just give it back to the parents. If you intentionally kill your neighbor's dog, you can't just buy them a new one and erase your crime. If you drive a car without a license and get caught, they're not going to let you off the hook if you promise to wait until you get one to drive again. |
This is a civil case, since they are suing you. Punishment doesn't come into it. The only reason for the amount they are suing is lawyers fee's and to teach people a lesson and i don't this a private company should do that. Punishment is in the hands of the state.
| Cedge wrote: | | Pirating a game is unlawful use of a copyrighted work, and is a crime in pretty much every country in the world. |
No its not. Probably more countries don't even have a law about this and even more have a law and it isn't enforced (which is the same as there wasn't any law) and in some it is legal (for personal use).
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73199
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 10:52 Post subject: |
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| xxax wrote: | | This is a civil case, since they are suing you. Punishment doesn't come into it. The only reason for the amount they are suing is lawyers fee's and to teach people a lesson and i don't this a private company should do that. Punishment is in the hands of the state. |
He is from the USA. In the land of the free, they have the DMCA, which makes it illegal "to download MP3s of vinyl records you own, for instance"  |
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 11:05 Post subject: |
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| H4wkeye wrote: | | Horrordee wrote: | With the likes of XFUSENET being entirely free, usenet doesn't have to cost a penny (gotta be a bit patent though!)
Anyone using BT is a fool (unless it's a TRUST private tracker!) |
Well, most private torrent trackers have a ToS that you must accept when you register that prevents the companies from pursuing the users on the site legally. So basically, if you are on a closed private tracker, you're probably much safer than using TPB. |
i really don't think that will work in a court.
if a site have a tos that allow selling drugs, that not means your are safe selling opium and you can put your personal phone/address in there.
tos/eula are ok as long they are not in direct violation of local laws. an eula/tos may be ok in us, teh same eula/tos may be not ok in ue.
i'm not 100% sure about it, so feel free to corect me if i'm wrong.
l.e. deleted the cloud stuff, is not important for the curent discution  .
Last edited by frogster on Fri, 16th Dec 2011 11:16; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 11:08 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 11:20 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73199
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 11:27 Post subject: |
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A more complete guide.
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 11:59 Post subject: |
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| Cedge wrote: |
Name me a crime that gets punished like that. |
Depends on what you've done but often as in the case of stealing you get a warning and return the shit you stole or pay for it. Repeat offenders get punished.
This is how it should go down.
1. People get letter asking for $50 for pirated title blah.
2. People with a guilty conscious pay.
3. Everyone with a brain ignored the thinly veiled threats of some douche bags.
4. Take people to court that didn't pay up.
5. Can't prove shit.
6. Lose all your cases.
7. Waste all your money you earned from 2 on lawyer fees.
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Grouch
Posts: 74
Location: Mississausage, Ontario
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 12:29 Post subject: |
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| Kyorisu wrote: | | Cedge wrote: |
Name me a crime that gets punished like that. |
Depends on what you've done but often as in the case of stealing you get a warning and return the shit you stole or pay for it. Repeat offenders get punished. |
Theft under $1000. It depends where you live, but this is absolutely false in my region.
You get:
A) $200-$300 fine
b) Have to do community service
c) Have a permanent record
If you hire a decent lawyer you maybe able to get 'b' and 'c' removed but you still have to pay 'a'. Add the cost of legal fees and you are still out about $500.
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 18:28 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | | He is from the USA. In the land of the free, they have the DMCA, which makes it illegal "to download MP3s of vinyl records you own, for instance" |
That's illegal in your country, too. You should probably familiarize yourself with your country's copyright laws. Israel isn't exactly lax on copyright protection.
Owning a piece of media in one form, does not give you the legal right to acquire it in any other form you want via any means. Yes, you'd be allowed to personally make your OWN MP3 rips of it, but you're not allowed to download MP3s that someone else made and uploaded to the internet. Same with DVDRips, books, et cetera. You're not allowed to download e-reader copies of recent books, just because you own them in paperback. This very much applies to your country as well, so your smart-ass remarks about the DMCA are irrelevant.
Also, this was the law for long BEFORE the DMCA showed up, so, actually, all you've done is show how ignorant your are of copyright law, and proven that you're just trying to derail the discussion and make it into some sort of anti-USA trash, when that's completely irrelevant, because you've run out of other arguments.
| Kyorisu wrote: | | Depends on what you've done but often as in the case of stealing you get a warning and return the shit you stole or pay for it. Repeat offenders get punished. |
Uh, yeah. What kind of child's storybook do you live in, exactly? That is not what happens in reality.
| Grouch wrote: | | But let's say we are both in university and writing an exam. Since you are much smarter than I am, and much better prepared for the exam, I copy your answers(I spent all night drinking and I'm much dumber than you are). I didn't physically steal your test sheet, but I have the potential to get same score as you with little to no effort; should I get punished if I get caught? |
Excellent example!
| banish wrote: | no...i don't think you should get punished...everybody has am asset in life...some have money others have brain others know how to bet by in life.
If you didn't know 1 answer in the exam and you could have cheated and you didn't that makes you pretty stupid imo |
Congratulations, you are morally bankrupt!
| xxax wrote: | | This is a civil case, since they are suing you. Punishment doesn't come into it. The only reason for the amount they are suing is lawyers fee's and to teach people a lesson and i don't this a private company should do that. Punishment is in the hands of the state. |
Okay, not punishment. Restitution. Same difference. You're arguing semantics, and it's pointless.
| Quote: | | No its not. Probably more countries don't even have a law about this and even more have a law and it isn't enforced (which is the same as there wasn't any law) and in some it is legal (for personal use). |
How many goddamn times do I have to say this? Berne. Convention.
What difference does it make if it's "for personal use"?  Of course it's for personal use. You're telling me that piracy is legal, if it's for "your personal use"? God, I'd love to see you try to explain that to a judge. "I only pirated hundreds of games and movies for my own personal use, so I believe it's actually perfectly legal, your honorl!"
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 18:57 Post subject: |
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| Cedge wrote: | | iNatan wrote: | | He is from the USA. In the land of the free, they have the DMCA, which makes it illegal "to download MP3s of vinyl records you own, for instance" |
That's illegal in your country, too. You should probably familiarize yourself with your country's copyright laws. Israel isn't exactly lax on copyright protection.
Owning a piece of media in one form, does not give you the legal right to acquire it in any other form you want via any means. Yes, you'd be allowed to personally make your OWN MP3 rips of it, but you're not allowed to download MP3s that someone else made and uploaded to the internet. Same with DVDRips, books, et cetera. You're not allowed to download e-reader copies of recent books, just because you own them in paperback. This very much applies to your country as well, so your smart-ass remarks about the DMCA are irrelevant.
Also, this was the law for long BEFORE the DMCA showed up, so, actually, all you've done is show how ignorant your are of copyright law, and proven that you're just trying to derail the discussion and make it into some sort of anti-USA trash, when that's completely irrelevant, because you've run out of other arguments.
| Kyorisu wrote: | | Depends on what you've done but often as in the case of stealing you get a warning and return the shit you stole or pay for it. Repeat offenders get punished. |
Uh, yeah. What kind of child's storybook do you live in, exactly? That is not what happens in reality.
| Grouch wrote: | | But let's say we are both in university and writing an exam. Since you are much smarter than I am, and much better prepared for the exam, I copy your answers(I spent all night drinking and I'm much dumber than you are). I didn't physically steal your test sheet, but I have the potential to get same score as you with little to no effort; should I get punished if I get caught? |
Excellent example!
| banish wrote: | no...i don't think you should get punished...everybody has am asset in life...some have money others have brain others know how to bet by in life.
If you didn't know 1 answer in the exam and you could have cheated and you didn't that makes you pretty stupid imo |
Congratulations, you are morally bankrupt!
| xxax wrote: | | This is a civil case, since they are suing you. Punishment doesn't come into it. The only reason for the amount they are suing is lawyers fee's and to teach people a lesson and i don't this a private company should do that. Punishment is in the hands of the state. |
Okay, not punishment. Restitution. Same difference. You're arguing semantics, and it's pointless.
| Quote: | | No its not. Probably more countries don't even have a law about this and even more have a law and it isn't enforced (which is the same as there wasn't any law) and in some it is legal (for personal use). |
How many goddamn times do I have to say this? Berne. Convention.
What difference does it make if it's "for personal use"? Of course it's for personal use. You're telling me that piracy is legal, if it's for "your personal use"? God, I'd love to see you try to explain that to a judge. "I only pirated hundreds of games and movies for my own personal use, so I believe it's actually perfectly lega, your honorl!" |
In Germany you are allowed to create up to seven copies of products you legally own for your inner private circle (family for example).
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 19:00 Post subject: |
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| Overlord123 wrote: | | In Germany you are allowed to create up to seven copies of products you legally own for your inner private circle (family for example). |
I can't find any source corroborating this, and even if it's true, how is that relevant, exactly?
Last edited by Cedge on Fri, 16th Dec 2011 19:02; edited 2 times in total
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73199
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 19:03 Post subject: |
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| Cedge wrote: | | Overlord123 wrote: | | In Germany you are allowed to create up to seven copies of products you legally own for your inner private circle (family for example). |
I can't find any source corroborating this, and even if it's true, how is that relevant, exactly? |
If you know German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatkopie
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| Posted: Fri, 16th Dec 2011 19:05 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/03/israel-rebukes-us-our-copyright-laws-are-fine-thanks.ars
DMCA was specifically created to make DRM circumvention illegal, while there is no single mention of DRM in the Israeli copyright laws.
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If there is anything in there that is contradictory to anything I have said, I can't find it. What point are you trying to make?
Also, you're the one who said that the DMCA was about it "being illegal to download MP3s of vinyl records you own, for instance." Now it's about DRM. So, which is it?
Also, more importantly: what's the goddamn point? You're so far off-topic it's ridiculous.
What I said is true. Even in your country, you're not allowed to download pirated MP3s of a record you own, or XviD DVDrips of a movie, or backups of a game, that other people have made and shared online. You can make your OWN copies, from your own ORIGINAL media, for your OWN use, but that's it.
You can't just say "LOL, USA HAS DMCA! " and have that be your entire counter-argument, and act like Israel is some kind of pirate's paradise where there are no copyright laws or punishments for copyright violators who get caught.
Okay. On to my second question: how the hell is that relevant? I already acknowledge the common right of being able to make your own personal copies. I'm quite aware of fair-use, thanks. That's not the same thing as pirating a game off the internet.
Last edited by Cedge on Fri, 16th Dec 2011 19:15; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Dec 2011 08:53 Post subject: |
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so, in america is legal by law to make copies of a let's say cd you own for personal use (backup whatever), and you can sue the company who puts a drm on it, forbidding you to do something that you are entitled by law to do it ?
how it works for you guys ?
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Dec 2011 09:05 Post subject: |
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You would think that by now people would figure out that torrents are a stupid risk and find something safer.
$10 or less a month for usenet is well worth it.
Also, the issue here isnt "stealing" the one copy for yourself but the -distribution- to others.
ie, uploading/seeding a torrent and broadcasting your IP to anyone who wants it.
So just asking forthe cost of one copy ofthe distributed work doesnt really mesh with the charges.
Not that I agree with it of course. Besides, copying is not stealing anyway.
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