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 Posted: Wed, 18th Jan 2012 19:14 Post subject: |
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| LMLM wrote: | I'm ecstatic this genre is getting this small revival in this great looking game. The reason the genre died wasn't because it wasn't good or popular imo, but rather because no developer had the inspiration to do it properly and thats why it became stale.
edit: maybe also the mindless but very financially successful clickety click click click of Diablo also had something to do with it also. |
Actually, the reason it died, was because of a combination of things:
a) Arena and alter Daggerfall showed that full 3D worlds were more popular - Lands of Lore 2 took a lot longer to develop because they started over to move to a full 3D world as well.
b) 3D and real time combat made the grid-based movements seem pointless and outdated
c) the genre was flooded with cheap and unoriginal clones - a bit like what you're saying.
There was a lot more the genre could do but when you can have real time combat in a full 3D world, it seemed pointless to move the advanced features (like more intricate combat) into a "dying genre".
Also, these types of games really became about creating a maze - and afaik, gamers despise mazes. Automaps were often not even included.
Still, do it properly: add automap, a proper inventory, lots of items to gather, crafting, nice turn based combat, some clever spell system, a story, NPCs, team mates that speak, world interaction, etc. and you could get one brilliant game.
Grimlock looks to take a few of these but really sticking to the classic genre which worries me a bit because, while it's great to play these in a nostalgic way, they get boring very quickly.
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| Posted: Wed, 18th Jan 2012 19:16 Post subject: |
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I'm one of those games which hate mazes. I despise 'em, always have.
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| Posted: Wed, 18th Jan 2012 19:50 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | I'm one of those games which hate mazes. I despise 'em, always have. |
Same here - it's why I think Wolfenstein 3D wasn't that great a game despite its importance in gaming history. I wrote a retro review on my blog about the game and it was mostly about how taking out the map view (which was originally going to be in the game) made the game really a maze hunt - really dull and frustrating.
Mazes in games are liked by NO-ONE! And still some devs decide to stuff them inside their games *shakes head*.
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| Posted: Wed, 18th Jan 2012 20:48 Post subject: |
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| red_avatar wrote: | | sabin1981 wrote: | | I'm one of those games which hate mazes. I despise 'em, always have. |
Same here - it's why I think Wolfenstein 3D wasn't that great a game despite its importance in gaming history. I wrote a retro review on my blog about the game and it was mostly about how taking out the map view (which was originally going to be in the game) made the game really a maze hunt - really dull and frustrating.
Mazes in games are liked by NO-ONE! And still some devs decide to stuff them inside their games *shakes head*. |
I don't think Wolf 3D was a great game and its only importance was a stepping stone for ID and bringing the whole shareware thing to the forefront. Ultima Underworld came before Wolf 3D and, in my opinion, was WAY WAY more fun. Not to mention it wasn't just a raycasted game like Wolf3D.
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LMLM
Posts: 825
Location: Meta Cortechs
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| Posted: Wed, 18th Jan 2012 21:56 Post subject: |
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| red_avatar wrote: | | There was a lot more the genre could do but when you can have real time combat in a full 3D world, it seemed pointless to move the advanced features (like more intricate combat) into a "dying genre". |
Red Avatar yes those are some good examples of why the genre died.
By more, what they did was spam huge 3d worlds with little depth or interactivity. It was Dungeon Master's interactive dungeon that still sets it apart even today. Been playing Skyrim and while it's beautiful and rather immersive, it isn't as immersive as DM or as scary, imo. Sure, they did a lot more with the genre after going 3d. A lot more spamming of repetitive content.
Oblivion was a prime example. When it first came out I installed it with excitement. Then I entered the first dungeon near the start with the rats. It was terrible, compared to DM. The combat was so dull and uninspired. The dungeon layout was bland. The textures were dull. The interactivity of the dungeon was non-existent. It didn't engage me. Skyrim is better than Obliv, no doubt, but still, the few scattered puzzles are only just starting to approach DM, imo.
| red_avatar wrote: | | Still, do it properly: add automap, a proper inventory, lots of items to gather, crafting, nice turn based combat, some clever spell system, a story, NPCs, team mates that speak, world interaction, etc. and you could get one brilliant game. |
Some good and bad ideas in there, imo. Crafting? Yuck. NPC's? Not important and could even distract from the focus of a good dungeon crawler. Some of the modern conventions of what makes an RPG have been over done also. That includes NPC interaction, crafting, quest spamming and vast but repetitive outdoor environs.
| red_avatar wrote: | | Also, these types of games really became about creating a maze - and afaik, gamers despise mazes. |
Yes, as I said, the genre sorely lacked inspired developers. Same thing has happened with many 'modern' 3d RPG's.
| red_avatar wrote: | | Grimlock looks to take a few of these but really sticking to the classic genre which worries me a bit because, while it's great to play these in a nostalgic way, they get boring very quickly. |
It's all about execution. It could fail but what I've seen so far is promising!
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| Posted: Wed, 18th Jan 2012 22:23 Post subject: |
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| red_avatar wrote: | | Grimlock looks to take a few of these but really sticking to the classic genre which worries me a bit because, while it's great to play these in a nostalgic way, they get boring very quickly. |
Why?
Well, personally, I can play DM again and don't feel bored.
It's like LMLM said, it will depend on how the game will be executed.
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| Posted: Fri, 20th Jan 2012 19:06 Post subject: |
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A completely bullet point free weekly update!
| Quote: | Hello again! We’ve survived yet another week, despite being engulfed in a small snow blizzard for the past few days. But at least I find it refreshing since the winter this far has been exceptionally warm here in Finland… Anyways, even though I know that you’re just dying to hear more about the local weather, I’m afraid we’ll have to move on to the development update. Since I’m in a storytelling mood now I’ll avoid the usual bulleted list this time! But first, since some of you have asked what our automap looks like, here’s a screenshot. I hope I didn’t ruin the joy of discovering the early parts of dungeon level 2 for anyone!  The “N” on the map indicates a note that I’ve left and you can see what is written down in a note when you bring your mouse on top of it. Level three will be displayed on the other page once the player discovers it.
This week a lot of our time has been spent in numerous smaller improvements and bug fixes again but one of the more visible changes is that we have a handful of cool new decorative props in the dungeons. For a developer who spends hours upon hours staring at the game, it’s very easy to get used to how the game looks but every time you add something that brings just a little more visual flair, it always manages to take you by surprise and make the game look and feel fresh again! 
Juho also started sketching the “key art” of the game. This is basically what our “box art” will be but with the digital marketplaces and such the image needs to be a little more flexible since it needs to work well in multiple different cases that can have different sizes, aspect ratios and layouts. For inspiration we looked at a bunch of cover arts of various oldschool role-playing games and Juho’s big pile of art books also came in handy once again.
Our AI has recently been learning some new tricks and maneuvers and this week, we’ve managed to fill in the majority of the quickie placeholder animations with more proper animations. Also the new flying creature we mentioned about last week has been through an animation pass. It still uses the sounds from another monster but I’ll do some audio for it next week.
And as per usual, the bulk of the work lied in the multitude of smaller things like iterating the dungeons, doing some more descriptions for some of the items for added flavor and adding more special attacks for the weapons. Also, one of our slimier monsters (not the snail!) got its textures touched up. And hey, that’s it for the weekly update once again. Have a good weekend, everyone! |
 Spoiler: | |
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| Posted: Fri, 20th Jan 2012 23:02 Post subject: |
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| dodger2020 wrote: | | I used to love making maps in dungeon crawlers like this. That was part of the fun for me. Found some of my old 22x22 Bard's Tale maps when I moved a couple years ago. Blast from the past. |
Yeah I know some people enjoy making those maps but I'm not one of them.
In fact, I've been replaying Eye of The Beholder because of this and it has no automap. Let me give you an idea of what this game does:
- the maps are true mazes
- a lot of the time, a button will make a wall disappear. A WALL, not a door, a WALL. And immediately next to you but on the other side of the map
- a lot of the time, the game will teleport you without warning, turn you around, send you in another direction. Yes, you have a compass but teleporting is really not funny when you have no minimap or any other way to orientate yourself
- sometimes you need to go up a level only to go down again to reach another part of the level you can't reach
Really, the Eye of the Beholder trilogy is classic but dear LORD, without having a map on my second screen, this thing is a nightmare. A minimap would have been so much better.
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W123
Posts: 2504
Location: USA
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JBeckman
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| Posted: Sat, 28th Jan 2012 01:51 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 28th Jan 2012 02:18 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 28th Jan 2012 14:36 Post subject: |
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i'm a bit confused by that...
if he has to put a pencil in his mouth to type, then.... he can use a mouse with his hand but not a keyboard? missing fingers i wonder? or what?
confusing.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th Jan 2012 14:57 Post subject: |
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it's a tiny joystick that presumably has keyboard and mouse modes of function
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NeHoMaR
Posts: 855
Location: In my house.
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| Posted: Sat, 28th Jan 2012 18:21 Post subject: |
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This look like a remake of a very ooooolllllldddd game, that is not bad of course.
I used to be a knee like you. Then I took an adventurer in the arrow.
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Grale
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jan 2012 04:25 Post subject: |
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| shole wrote: | | it's a tiny joystick that presumably has keyboard and mouse modes of function |
ah, interesting...
i thought "typing stick" was a description, not a special peripheral in all honesty.
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spajdr
Posts: 1842
Location: Czechia
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jan 2012 11:06 Post subject: |
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It would be great if this engine was used to recreate a Amiga version of Black Crypt, Eye of the Beholder I,II.
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jan 2012 14:13 Post subject: |
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There's always a chance that someone will do, if they release with some modding support features enable.
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Grale
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jan 2012 19:07 Post subject: |
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Grale
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jan 2012 19:57 Post subject: |
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Dodger that could be the one. it looks and sounds like it.
I hope LoG replicates the feeling of DM, from what i have seen i'm sure it will.
MSI X570 Tomahawk |Corsair Vengeance LPX 32gb 3600mhz | Ryzen 5800X3D | EKWB Watercooling | Seasonic Focus GX 850 Gold PSU | 4090 Founders | Predator X34P UW curved monitor | Window Pro 10 x64
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Grale
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but a very good game..
