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 Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:24 Post subject: Towards a steady end for piracy |
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Pirating was cool the last time in 2004
Only VERY poor people who pirate - that i understand (though poor people should get to gripes!)
Thanks to online means we can buy games much more easily
Prices tend to be cheaper and/or stay the same for games, though broadly speaking salaries have grown
Blizzard-styled server-side only content providing seems to be the key to end illicit use
Discuss.
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:33 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:38 Post subject: |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:39 Post subject: |
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Most of piracy is a symptom, not a cause.
As long as the majority of games and movies are shit, people will pirate them for evaluation purposes.
Certainly piracy occurs where there are quality content as well by people who just are greedy. There are no legitimate ways to get to that though. v0v
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:41 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | Most of piracy is a symptom, not a cause.
As long as the majority of games and movies are shit, people will pirate them for evaluation purposes.
Certainly piracy occurs where there are quality content as well by people who just are greedy. There are no legitimate ways to get to that though. v0v |
That's exactly what I said earlier...
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65081
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:43 Post subject: |
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:46 Post subject: |
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I'm not arguing that big corporations tend to do a lot of remakes/reboots and whatnot of quality products, but they're doing it as there's an audience for it. If it sells, all of us would do it with much less work put into it. It's capitalism.
Very few people pirating games for evaluation purposes buy the game afterwards if it meets their expectations. Let's be honest here.
And yes, poor people pirate more. Geographically speaking. Former Soviet bloc countries seem to have piracy rates up to 80-90 % according to statistics. Am i wrong here?
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:50 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: | I'm not arguing that big corporations tend to do a lot of remakes/reboots and whatnot of quality products, but they're doing it as there's an audience for it. If it sells, all of us would do it with much less work put into it. It's capitalism.
Very few people pirating games for evaluation purposes buy the game afterwards if it meets their expectations. Let's be honest here.
And yes, poor people pirate more. Geographically speaking. Former Soviet bloc countries seem to have a pirate rates up to 80-90 % according to statistics. Am i wrong here? |
As previously mentioned, good multiplayer games are often nearly impossible to pirate...
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:51 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: | | I'm not arguing that big corporations tend to do a lot of remakes/reboots and whatnot of quality products, but they're doing it as there's an audience for it. If it sells, all of us would do it with much less work put into it. It's capitalism. |
This is your argument? Really? Because it sells it's OK? How is this related to piracy then, except to legitimize it?
| Quote: |
Very few people pirating games for evaluation purposes buy the game afterwards if it meets their expectations. Let's be honest here.
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I do it, lots of people here on nfohump does it. Most recently I purchased two copies of Dragon's Dogma after pirating it just to support the devs.
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And yes, poor people pirate more. Geographically speaking. Former Soviet bloc countries seem to have a pirate rates up to 80-90 % according to statistics. Am i wrong here? |
Lies, damned lies and statistics. You take a country with billions of inhabitants (like India) and there are millions and millions of pirate copies, but then you have to put that in relation to the total population. Oh, it's so easy to lie with statistics it's not even funny.
Also, 95% of statistics are made up on the spot, including this one.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:55 Post subject: |
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I'm not talking about India but Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and so on...
Statistics are not the absolute, true. They're made by different organizations, with different parameters. But it's pointless to argue that at large piracy rates are higher in these countries (thanks to cultural differences and the fact Communism pervaded there, not to mention nowadays weak laws regarding patents, trademarks and copyright).
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 19:58 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: | I'm not talking about India but Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and so on...
Statistics are not the absolute, true. They're made by different organizations, with different parameters. But it's pointless to argue that at large piracy rates are higher in these countries (thanks to cultural differences). |
It's also cheaper over there, games in russia (etc.) are usually cheaper due to the average lower income (and other things). There are so many variables involved (total population, poverty, accessibility, etc. etc. ) that trying to draw a simple correlation like yours is just utterly wrong. But I guess with a simplistic narrow-minded world view anything can be real!
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:05 Post subject: |
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Based on your pessimistic logic on statistics one can say EVERY statistics on EVERY topic is wrong and out of context in some way. Though yes, most countries calculate their people's average salary with a very stupid and primitive formula which does not correlate the real situation. But i take you're hinting at copyright organs here that do the stats (and you are hinting at their biased view to joggle things?).
Yes, Russia is Region 5 and Hollywood sells their junk cheaper there. Usually the publishers also require hard-coded subtitles and/or Russian voiceover for example to aggravate (international) piracy taking the product as a source.
But overall piracy is wrong. You're not supposed to use a product for free. It doesn't work like that. We're not living the Soviet ideal free-for-all concept. And if you accuse developers/publishers of the increasing poor quality, you should accuse the consumers first.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:17 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:25 Post subject: |
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Demos are a necessity and they're gone indeed to flatter more buyers. But this is business.
But back in the demo days people identically whined about games getting bad, and developers/publishers wondering why they're not getting any money.
Though we can definitely assure Activision isn't complaining with their CoD series, though it's a complete crap nowadays. Even though MP is intense (it's still the same).
And yeah, i'm talking strictly by rationality, i'm not looking at this topic through hardcore fan eyes.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:31 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: |
But overall piracy is wrong. You're not supposed to use a product for free. |
So you say, I don't really care - I will do exactly what I want, and guess what - you can't do fuck all about it except cry, wave your fists and be mad about it. v0v
But I'll post a similar statement that is just as valid as yours:
But overall piracy is right. You're supposed to use a product for free.
"B...b..but you're breaking the laws! Whaaa!"
Watch me not give a crap.
"B...b...ut, you will end up in jail!"
Only in countries where you aren't free, like the USA.
"You are an idiot!"
...who gets shit for free, and pays for the good stuff, only. I'd say that's smart. It encourages quality games, movies, and discourages shit.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:36 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: | Demos are a necessity and they're gone indeed to flatter more buyers. But this is business.
But back in the demo days people identically whined about games getting bad, and developers/publishers wondering why they're not getting any money.
Though we can definitely assure Activision isn't complaining with their CoD series, though it's a complete crap nowadays. Even though MP is intense (it's still the same).
And yeah, i'm talking strictly by rationality, i'm not looking at this topic through hardcore fan eyes. |
So it's ok for corporations not to give you a proper picture of what it is that you are using your hard earned money on because "it's business"? Well, it's business for me too to get to know the product beforehand before i buy it too.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:45 Post subject: |
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Yeah fisk, you're awesome.
I also tend to speed my car, be drunk in public places, sometimes pee in public and son - that doesn't mean it's right. It's regulated under law just like copyright infringement. The thing is pirating is too wide-scale. It's something people take as granted and normal. The attitude must change, and it's already happening.
My thread is a valid one. I'm not complaining, because i'm not in this industry nor do i care who pirates, who not. It's a valid thread because if the sales were low these companies wouldn't be making low-quality products. Simple. As long as the audience accepts it, it's in accordance with every free-market economy rule. That doesn't mean one should pirate.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:52 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: | Yeah fisk, you're awesome.
I also tend to speed my car, be drunk in public places, sometimes pee in public and son - that doesn't mean it's right. It's regulated under law just like copyright infringement.
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Did you just compare copying software with speeding whilst calling me "son". That is hilarious. First of all, I am not your son. Second of all, capitalism in the modern age is a buyer's market. If a manufacturer of goods cannot acquiesce to the customers needs, then said manufacturer will go bankrupt. Capitalism is survival of the fittest, and the fittest (for example, Valve and Steam) who understand the market thrive regardless of piracy. Whilst others do not.
The only companies who are whining and bitching (like you) are the ones that fail to adapt, and deservingly will die because of it.
| Quote: |
The thing is pirating is too wide-scale. It's something people take as granted and normal. The attitude must change, and it's already happening.
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Attitude change is happening because some developers understand what consumers want. More F2P, more easy access, more micro-transactions, more indy game bundles, more trials of full games, et cetera. THIS on top of quality releases is what interests consumers.
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My thread is a valid one. I'm not complaining, because i'm not in this industry nor do i care who pirates, who not. It's a valid thread because if the sales were low these companies wouldn't be making low-quality products. Simple. As long as the audience accepts it, it's in accordance with every free-market economy rule. That doesn't mean one should pirate. |
Your thread is a repetition of nonsense that has been argued since the birth of software. I remember in the 80'ies when the first articles about software piracy became prevalent in magazines. Then just as now the good game developers thrived, while the terrible ones died. For a period of time in the late 90'ies and early 2000's there was a great rift between smaller developers and monopolites (like EA) which much thanks to platforms like Steam has turned around. But in essence you don't get it.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 20:59 Post subject: |
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I understand what you mean. Now you're talking about distribution methods (Steam). Of course it's a brilliant thing and has made Valve a very rich company. In fact they're so rich they can nicely delay the next installment of HL into oblivion.
And, again, on a large scale entertainment industry are living good:
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AEA
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AATVI
http://www.google.com/finance?q=EPA%3AUBI
Even though they produce medicore (or even below) mainstream quality. It's free-market. As long as it sells, they're entitled to simple way out. Again, i'm gonna use this example: if you were a businessman, you'd also think economically/financially.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 21:08 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: |
Even though they produce medicore (or even below) mainstream quality. It's free-market.
As long as it sells, they're entitled to simple way out.
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Of course, there will always be idiots who buy anything without using any line of critical thinking. These people will go on listening to Britney Spears and make those type of artists sell more records which end up in the pockets of agents etc. - naturally, some people are weak and will be used by any excuse, be it economic or otherwise.
Piracy is a means to not play by their rules. Instead of having to pay for shit that is shit, I choose not to. I choose to critically evaluate product without paying for them first. In most free countries this can be done with any other product, just not always software. So I take the freedoms that I want, and there's not a damn thing you or anyone like you can do about it. Tough shit.
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Again, i'm gonna use this example: if you were a businessman, you'd also think economically/financially. |
This is a logical fallacy, you're trying to generalize all businessmen. Yes SOME businessmen argue the way you do, some of them are still successful, some of them are not. On the other hand there are plenty of other businessmen who reason the way I do and are successful as well. Notch for example.
You really need to take a basic course in reason & argument, because yours are terrible.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 21:15 Post subject: |
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Well, i'm staying calm whilst you try to attack me with - true, politically correct - personal insults.
And your logic lacks ground as well. If the mainstream is bad, why try it at all? You still pirate it, more or less, finish more than half of it, and then uninstall it. You've abused a product that you didn't pay for, and later can say it was crap. You're not going to drive a new car for 2 months before deciding to buy or not buy it, right? It's not a very good comparison, but the principle stays.
The same can go for new movies premiering in cinemas. But it's more difficult with this one - you can't know if it's a good one or not, you can't get (99 % in times) a bootleg or R5 or whatnot beforehand. Its, again, Capitalism.
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 21:20 Post subject: |
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*dons the pirate head and gets out the popcorn* 
oh, its that time of year again?
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14350
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 21:24 Post subject: |
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Software piracy is perfectly fine if you are a chaotic-good character.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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garus
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 21:26 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:39; edited 1 time in total
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Sin317
Banned
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Jun 2012 21:35 Post subject: |
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| evribadi wrote: | | Well, i'm staying calm whilst you try to attack me with - true, politically correct - personal insults. |
It's not my fault that you take it personally when I deflate your terrible argument. Now allow me to teach you the difference:
"You are a fucking moron"
That is a personal insult
"Your argument is terrible"
That is calling your argument terrible.
Glad to be of assistance.
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And your logic lacks ground as well. If the mainstream is bad, why try it at all?
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Again with your fallacies, this time a strawman. I never said that the mainstream is bad, I am saying that some people will buy anything without critical thought. You are attempting to put words in my mouth and counter those, which in essence is borderline solipsism.
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You still pirate it, more or less, finish more than half of it, and then uninstall it. You've abused a product that you didn't pay for, and later can say it was crap. |
What is it with you and making things up? You remind me of ChinUp who back in the day would write paragraph after paragraph of pure fiction and then counter it, precisely but still - completely missing the plot. I never play half of anything. Last game I pirated and discarded (because I do not have as much time to play a lot of games anymore) was Black Ops 2, I installed it and tried it for maybe 25 minutes and realized it was essentially the same linear FPS that has been regurgitated and "streamlined" for the past 10 years, so I uninstalled it. I didn't enjoy myself at all, and I'm glad I didn't waste a dime on it.
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You're not going to drive a new car for 2 months before deciding to buy or not buy it, right? It's not a very good comparison, but the principle stays. |
When I buy things, be it software or hardware I do it with a lot of preparation. With software I know I cannot trust reviews, so I evaluate it myself. A game is very simple to evaluate, I've been playing games both professionally (I used to work as a reviewer for a large website (fz.se) and I was a NQL-player in the late 90'ies), I've become very apt at discovering if something is for me or not. Other software (like Adobe Photoshop) I just buy because I know these developers make consistent quality. Same thing for some game makers. But when it comes to EA, it is a 90% guarantee that the game isn't up to specs. I know I can trust DICE, so I bought BF3, but the rest of their titles are usually quite bad. I sometimes try a title and then discard it because it was merely a regurgitated patch of the previous installment, and not worth the time it took to install, and even less worth money.
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The same can go for new movies premiering in cinemas. But it's more difficult with this one - you can't know if it's a good one or not, you can't get (99 % in times) a bootleg or R5 or whatnot beforehand. Its, again, Capitalism. |
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. But cinema is the same, 90% is pretty bad. Whilst 10% is good. Some director's are reliable (I like Ridley Scott and that guy who made The Fountain, Requiem for a dream, etc.) and I pay for their movies without even watching a trailer. Other's I watch, and if it's a good movie I want the BluRay with commentary and other stuff in full quality. If it's bad I tend to watch the whole thing and rate it as a terrible movie and feel insulted that I wasted the time, and if you argue that I should pay for it as well, well then I'd laugh and disagree and say that anyone who pays money for poor quality are idiots.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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