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Neon
VIP Member
Posts: 18889
Location: Poland
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 Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 15:27 Post subject: (EU) It's illegal to stop you from selling used software |
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It's just been declared illegal in Europe for companies to stop you selling used software, even if it's distributed digitally only. Wonder how Steam, Origin and iTunes are gonna implement this?
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf
| Quote: |
By its judgment delivered today, the Court explains that the principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website.
Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy. Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy. |
Last edited by Neon on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 15:30; edited 1 time in total
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garus
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Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 15:28 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 15:29 Post subject: |
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Sweet - anyone want to buy my copy of Counter Strike: Condition Zero?
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JBeckman
VIP Member
Posts: 34544
Location: Sweden
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 15:54 Post subject: |
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What could be the case is that the EU rejects the usage of steam/origin and other shit in the EU untill they change their policy.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 64941
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:00 Post subject: |
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Who wants my ISOdemos collection? Only 50$ 
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:02 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | I honestly think EA/Valve will simply stop providing in EU territories. |
That's not how business works.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:04 Post subject: |
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| pillermann wrote: | | sabin1981 wrote: | | I honestly think EA/Valve will simply stop providing in EU territories. |
That's not how business works. |
If you say so. If it comes to the fact that they're being forced to take a loss on their sales, then yes.. simply stopping sales is definitely an option.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:06 Post subject: |
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| pillermann wrote: | | sabin1981 wrote: | | I honestly think EA/Valve will simply stop providing in EU territories. |
That's not how business works. |
Agree. EU territory is a big market. I doubt they will want to loose it.
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:06 Post subject: |
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| pillermann wrote: | | sabin1981 wrote: | | I honestly think EA/Valve will simply stop providing in EU territories. |
That's not how business works. |
They have no choice if they are FORCED to change their policy. EU will simply BAN them from selling in the EU if they do not comply.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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Roach_666
Posts: 1299
Location: Hell in its Alpha Build
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:07 Post subject: |
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That's why they will either comply or find a way to circumvent the law. You don't just "stop selling" in EU; the market is too big.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:10 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | If you say so. If it comes to the fact that they're being forced to take a loss on their sales, then yes.. simply stopping sales is definitely an option. |
Sabin, it's never as simple as that when we're talking with big firms. It's not a simple equation of just loss sales.
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garus
VIP Member
Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:13 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:16 Post subject: |
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surely this is all in how the law is interpreted.
i mean steam doesnt STOP you from selling your games... it just doesnt offer the facility for it.
i mean steam ALLOWS you to SELL games that you have in your inventory - for money - it just wont reimburse you if you get screwed... i havent seen anywhere that steam has ever said it is against TOS to sell your games in your inventory, i've never seen them lock an account when people have done so...
valve does forbid you from selling your account, but an account =/= game.
i really dont see how this will change anything? especially for steam.
Last edited by chiv on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:17; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:16 Post subject: |
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They win money even with without a clear profit. I bet they operate like the big retailers.
Last edited by Roger_Young on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:17; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:17 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: |
Well. To resell a game, someone still has to buy it on Steam. |
Yes.. once. Then that person can sell it to anyone else, who can then sell it to someone else, all the while Valve/etc see nothing from that sale. You've read the news, you've seen how much publishers are gnashing their teeth over the pre-owned market. Right now DD is safe from that, every sale is singular and every person must buy their own copy of the game (well, some people sell whole accounts, but that's not as common as walking into Gamestop and picking up console/PC titles for cheap) imagine how it's going to be (for the publishers) if people are granted the legally protected right to sell DD acquired titles? It's going to hit publishers hard.
Now, again, I'm not saying it WILL happen (so kindly fuck off, eLawyers  ) just that it's a possibility. If the EU decided that people are allowed to sell their licenses to Windows, negating Microsoft from selling more copies, do you guys seriously believe MS would just shrug and carry on business as usual? And, again, I AGREE that customers should retain the resale right on their property .. this whole bullshit "you're not buying a game, you're buying the right to play it" has to fucking stop. Greedy publishers are sucking the world dry and yes, they should be sanctioned and customer protection should be implemented, I just think that the EU high courts have a nasty habit of trying to run the world and they interfere far too frequently.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:19; edited 1 time in total
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:17 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | surely this is all in how the law is interpreted.
i mean steam doesnt STOP you from selling your games... it just doesnt offer the facility for it.
it forbids you from selling your account, but an account =/= game.
i really dont see how this will change anything? |
You are able to trade games that are already activated.
That is what SHOULD change then.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:19 Post subject: |
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I haven't read the judgment itself yet but from my understanding you are reading it wrong. Per se, nobody can hinder you from reselling used software. However, this does not mean that Steam and others can simply implement ways to make it technically impossible.
Take, for example, music on CDs. In several countries you have the right to make a personal copy for private use, even lend or give it to friends or relatives. This does not hinder producers from implementing copy protection which you are forbidden to override or disable by the same law that states the right to a private copy.
Worst case: Steam, Origin and others have to change their policy or can't sell in Euroland anymore, like some of you said. Great, can't wait for that to happen as their business model is a piece of crap from a consumer standpoint anyway. Retail sales ftw!
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:20 Post subject: |
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Another on my ignore list. Keep it up, the more spiteful and insulting losers on my list, the most pleasant and enjoyable my browsing experience becomes ^_^
| OLime wrote: |
Worst case: Steam, Origin and others have to change their policy or can't sell in Euroland anymore, like some of you said. Great, can't wait for that to happen as their business model is a piece of crap from a consumer standpoint anyway. Retail sales ftw! |
I agree. I honestly don't think these companies will stop business, I just also think it's a distinct possibility and shouldn't be immediately discounted.
| chiv wrote: |
i mean steam ALLOWS you to SELL games that you have in your inventory - for money - it just wont reimburse you if you get screwed... i havent seen anywhere that steam has ever said it is against TOS to sell your games in your inventory, i've never seen them lock an account when people have done so... |
Valve, you mean. Steam is the platform and Valve is the company. But anyhow, they allow you to keep items in your inventory and trade them away .. but you're not allowed to trade or sell activated titles, as sausage said. This is what the EU stuff is talking about, being prohibited from selling preowned titles that were purchased/acquired via DD.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:23; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:22 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 04:07; edited 1 time in total
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:24 Post subject: |
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| sausje wrote: | You are able to trade games that are already activated.
That is what SHOULD change then. |
clearly not in steams best interests to allow that, so i dont see why they should implement it.
what valve SHOULD do, and ive said this for the longest time, is implement a buy-back system, so you can sell your unwanted games back to valve for a % of the current sale price. seems pretty win/win, and would be a definite money-maker for valve.
problem with this, is that digital sales are messy. you see people CONSTANTLY getting fucked over when selling their digital games... it always requires someone to 'go first', its not like a physical sale where you can hand over something while simultaneously getting your money.
this is another example of a law being passed, which really isn't all that practical...
oh, heres another interesting issue.
everyones thinking games... theyre thinking steam and origin and other game distributors...
but this law applies to digitally purchased media... what about mp3s? you can sell your mp3s? how will that work? do the people who pass these laws, ever really think about the practical application?
movies, mp3s, software, games, BOOKS... oh man. i mean how do you regulate the sale of mp3s by consumers?
| sabin1981 wrote: | | Valve, you mean. Steam is the platform and Valve is the company. But anyhow, they allow you to keep items in your inventory and trade them away .. but you're not allowed to trade or sell activated titles, as sausage said. This is what the EU stuff is talking about, being prohibited from selling preowned titles that were purchased/acquired via DD. |
yes, valve, but i also mean steam as in the platform allows for it. it allows for the purchase and storing of content that can then be transferred.
Last edited by chiv on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:28; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:26 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | | do the people who pass these laws, ever really think about the practical application? |
Bingo. That's exactly it, the EU passes all these regulations because of what they perceive is "right" - but it seems they simply don't consider how to practically implement them. Oh well, it's not like anything is going to change anyhow.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:27 Post subject: |
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@chiv:
The court said in its judgment how it works: 1) you have to uninstall the software you want to sell, same goes for mp3s: delete them, 2) delte any copy you have (you are not allowed to simply copy the software and sell that), 3) sell it and give away any right you had prior due to your purchase.
How is that impractical? There are companies who resell used Oracle or MS licenses already.
Last edited by OLime on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:29; edited 1 time in total
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:29 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | | sausje wrote: | You are able to trade games that are already activated.
That is what SHOULD change then. |
clearly not in steams best interests to allow that, so i dont see why they should implement it. |
Ofc they are prolly not going to implement that, but then the EU is either going to fine them or forbid them from selling/usage of their program in the EU.
However, i do partly agree with the law. Why not be able to sell something that you know you won't be using anymore.
But the amount of hassle it brings with it... just not worth it..
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:29 Post subject: |
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@OLime
but how do you enforce that? I think that's what chiv means. It sounds iffy, like those ROM site disclosures "You must delete this after 24 hours" - it takes too much on faith. In the real world, when you sell something you hand it over. You hand it to the buyer, they hand you money. With this DD stuff the onus would be the vendor, ie such as iTunes or Steam, to physically remove the copy and transfer it to whoever.
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Guyver
Posts: 2221
Location: Bunga-Bun... err Italy.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:30 Post subject: |
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i wonder if one of the EU council man, making this law, hasn't bought diablo 3... 
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