i locked the other topic (and it should have been locked after the first post already if had seen it earlier), because of the tone and arguments brought forth. But in the spirit of open debate i m opening another one with the above video as a starting point, so we can talk about some things somebody actually has said.
The above video makes a similar argument as what was argued for that kickstarter project (that a lot of you seem to love to hate).
Please keep it civil and on topic this time, if you want to chime in on the gender debate and games, i.e. no rape jokes / gendered-insults / misogyny etc.
some of the arguments in the video:
- FPS games as of now are a huge sausagefest
- games lack female characters, especially in the multiplayer part of games (even if the SP already featured women)
- war games that focus on realism are even more unrealistic without the choice of women as more and more countries have them enlisted and even in the us a lot of women regularly fight alongside men even though their primary role isnt infantry
- it is not much more of a cost to developers to add women avatars and most likely worth the little to no costs (as it might help to get more women into fps and appease the ones that already play)
As you can imagine i agree on those points , because they represent a reality that must suck for female gamers (or male gamers who want to play female characters) and should be easy to eradicate.
I also noticed the lack of female soldiers in war games which is slightly detrimental to realism, but other than that see no real reason to argue about this
there are enough counterexamples in gaming so who cares.
and I dont play any multiplayer so no idea what this is all about
Well, the thing is... if you had women in those games, feminists would rage because you would have violence against women.
i d say that's a strawman, but i can envision that a very small minority might actually argue that. It would be stupid though, as those wouldnt be NPCs, so people willingly would act out the role as male or female and make themselves targets.
The argument might be valid in a lot of RPGs, where you already have sexism in it (e.g. smaller armor for females means higher armor class), but even there it s a stretch imho.
there are enough counterexamples in gaming so who cares.
we had a similar argument in the other thread and it is actually quite hard to come up with games that have female main roles in it. This video argues for MP in FPS alone and i think the situation is even worse there. I havent been up to speed with the fps scene, so i could be wrong on this, but as far as i can recall the trend would be rather declining in recent years with all those WW2 and modern warfare shooters taking over. Hence the above video.
The whining whores should start making games themselves the way they like it, and shut up about how other people does it. How developers envision their main character is none of their fucking business.
Don't like it? move on.
Lutz:
i asked in the starting post to not use gendered insults and keep it on topic. You answered with "Those whining whores...". The video was made by a man and no women's arguments were presented anywhere. Consider this a warning. Next time it is a ban.
I have no problem with sausagefest, if you know what I mean, and I think that you do xD
I just had to, it was stronger than me xD xD xD
But on topic:
I have never really thought about that. Maybe nobody really bothered because there are female characters in other games (RPGs mostly), and it's a FPS, you don't really see the character that you're playing.
Plus in most of the FPS games (like COD or Battlefield) you usually play a member of special operations troop, and I really haven't heard of females in those groups irl (navy seals etc).
Plus if you look at these games, they are often put in surroundings like WW2, or Vietnam war, or stuff like that, and I don't think women were allowed in the army in those days.
Now, you could put them in games like Crysis, in those special suits, for instance like in SC2:
Spoiler:
That looks awesome
So I don't really know what to debate here about. Sure, put them in games, I don't care xD It's on game developers to decide...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson
chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.
@Dingo: yeah, you re right. It is "realistic" to not have women in special forces, so it is understandable that they wouldnt be in those games. But that they are even kept out of games like the alien franchise is ridiculous and shows a trend set out by those realistic war games to not be inclusive.
personally, i dont have an issue with it, as i have basically stopped playing those war shooters, because i got fed up with the setting, but yes, since the view is first-person it s not going to have much of an impact on your identification with the character you play.
Stop right there. Please don't swallow Chiv's rubbish, thanks, the Alien franchise has ALWAYS had strong female characters -- just because Chiv only knows of the four primary movies, it doesn't mean those are the only parts of the franchise. The books, the comics, the games, the movies -- all had strong females, either as lead or support. Yes, what Gearbox are doing is a bit strange -- but cut the "they're kept out of the franchise" nonsense, as that's a logical fallacy ()
And that's all I'm saying in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the last thread was closed because of misandry. Any and all comments that didn't paint women as the gods they apparently are, was immediately discounted with flippant waves of the hand .. so I have no intention of getting involved in this clamfest either
~edit~
Fixed mispelling, my apologies.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Sun, 29th Jul 2012 18:36; edited 1 time in total
what other parts of the franchise are there? AVP? Even those had women in them? Also, without the movies there would be no franchise, and the movies were epitomes of strong women. To this day i think Vasquez was the most awesome space marine ever portrayed in any scifi movie ever. Not to mention Ripley.
And that's all I'm saying in this thread. As far as I'm concerned, the last thread was closed because of misanthropy. Any and all comments that didn't paint women as the gods they apparently are, was immediately discounted with flippant waves of the hand .. so I have no intention of getting involved in this clamfest either
since you edited your post while i answered:
the word you re looking for here is "misandry" and it is as dishonest a representation of the thread as could be. So please, keep to your word and let this be the only thing you re saying in this thread...
sorry for the previous outburst, it's just feminist bullshit gets me so riled up. And that's my opinion, it's bullshit.
i get that.
It is a typical reaction of people to become angry when they are being shown mistakes in their judgment of the world which are based on privileged group-think / culture.
i find it sad, that people react with anger and insults on topics like this (e.g. topics that argue for more empathy, more inclusiveness, for more understanding, "for a better world", etc).
Dismissing this as "just feminist bullshit" is doing yourself an intellectual disservice, because it is what sabin said "waving an argument away with a flippant waves of the hand" instead of trying to reflect on why it angers you so much, that some people aren't happy with the state of the gaming industry / or society.
Really, those uber-tough women that constantly display badassery and imitate macho-like behaviour I can only bear in small doses.
There's some place for them but it should not become a standard for female characters in games. Ripley is how it should be done.
Really, those uber-tough women that constantly display badassery and imitate macho-like behaviour I can only bear in small doses.
There's definitely a place for them but it should not become a standard for female characters in games. Ripley is how it should be done.
i agree, Ripley is <3. But the awesome thing about Vasquez is, is that she is more of a man than the rest of her squad. Which i always thought to be awesome as fuck.
edit: as for the macho-debate. I d love to see less macho-type characters in games / movies in general, no matter if they are women / men. Have more variety of characters in both genders and less stereotypes. I know that stories in games / movies often need to use known concepts or stereotypes to not have to explain all of the story and character's motivations, but in games we have a lot of space for development and i d love to see that explored more, so that we can actually play the characters we would want to play instead of being stringed along for a shallow ride (which sometimes can be great, but many times makes the experience lacking)
Really, those uber-tough women that constantly display badassery and imitate macho-like behaviour I can only bear in small doses.
There's definitely a place for them but it should not become a standard for female characters in games. Ripley is how it should be done.
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
Really, those uber-tough women that constantly display badassery and imitate macho-like behaviour I can only bear in small doses.
There's definitely a place for them but it should not become a standard for female characters in games. Ripley is how it should be done.
Really, those uber-tough women that constantly display badassery and imitate macho-like behaviour I can only bear in small doses.
There's definitely a place for them but it should not become a standard for female characters in games. Ripley is how it should be done.
from what movie is that?
Super.
I was trying to find her showing off her "skills" but I couldnt find that scene.
Excellent movie imo.
Edit:
Found it - love this one!
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
Last edited by Ankh on Sun, 29th Jul 2012 19:04; edited 1 time in total
sorry for the previous outburst, it's just feminist bullshit gets me so riled up. And that's my opinion, it's bullshit.
i get that.
It is a typical reaction of people to become angry when they are being shown mistakes in their judgment of the world which are based on privileged group-think / culture.
i find it sad, that people react with anger and insults on topics like this (e.g. topics that argue for more empathy, more inclusiveness, for more understanding, "for a better world", etc).
Dismissing this as "just feminist bullshit" is doing yourself an intellectual disservice, because it is what sabin said "waving an argument away with a flippant waves of the hand" instead of trying to reflect on why it angers you so much, that some people aren't happy with the state of the gaming industry / or society.
Hey, i still mean what i said, i should just have thought through and said it in a better way.
These woman whines about irrelevant shit most of the time, which is what annoys me. Of course they have legit problems they bring up, which is fine, and i can understand that. But not having any proper female roles in FPS games and such? Give me a break.
Out in the real world women has so many pros compared to men that it's almost sickening, especially beautiful girls, and they complain about this.
It's fine you have your opinion about women needing to become the master gender and we should abide to all their wishes, but don't throw this shit on me.
they still do not earn equal money for equal jobs in most areas, do not have access to management positions in most fields or are severely under-represented (even if you account for the loss of years through childbirth and upbringing), are the huge majority of rape-victims, face regular demeaning attitudes by sexists etc. pp.
and thats the reality of it. Yes, we live in a better world than 30 to 150 years ago because of the feminist struggle, but that is far from over yet.
Pointing out the massive over-representation of men in video games seems to be so threatening to some here, that they cant but sling insults. Just look at that other thread and your reaction here EVEN THOUGH no woman made any arguments here, you promptly called out "those whining whores" and also break it down again in your last post to be all about those whiney women, when the original poster and the video posted were cleary by men...
they still do not earn equal money for equal jobs in most areas, do not have access to management positions in most fields or are severely under-represented (even if you account for the loss of years through childbirth and upbringing), are the huge majority of rape-victims, face regular demeaning attitudes by sexists etc. pp.
and thats the reality of it. Yes, we live in a better world than 30 to 150 years ago because of the feminist struggle, but that is far from over yet.
Pointing out the massive over-representation of men in video games seems to be so threatening to some here, that they cant but sling insults. Just look at that other thread and your reaction here EVEN THOUGH no woman made any arguments here, you promptly called out "those whining whores" and also break it down again in your last post to be all about those whiney women, when the original poster and the video posted were cleary by men...
See? this is valid issues which I agree with. But yelling about not enough females in this and that medium? This is not valid issues, and they should either form female companies and develop their own games according to their desires or try getting those bubble headed females into game development other any other serious job than hair saloons and shit, and i'm sure men would stop looking at them only as fuck dolls. And don't forget, They bring the bad image many women have on themselves the way they dress and act (ofc faar from all, but such a big portion).
I'll admit i didn't read the thread properly, i just knew it was about feminism and not enough girls in FPS games. Says enough in most situations really.
If it's a stepping stone on the path to producing higher quality games with interesting characters and story then I'm all for it.
But if it's just to switch hurrs like derp fenix for their female counterparts then I think I'll pass.
That or to change a character's essence by suddenly making him the baddest of the bad, nothing stands on his path of violence... except if it somehow involves violence against woman, like what seems to be happening with the new God of War game.
boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote:
i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then
You guys either need to make a new sub forum for these kinds of things or put it in General Chatter..Why are these serious discussions popping up in the void?
If it's a stepping stone on the path to producing higher quality games with interesting characters and story then I'm all for it.
But if it's just to switch hurrs like derp fenix for their female counterparts then I think I'll pass.
That or to change a character's essence by suddenly making him the baddest of the bad, nothing stands on his path of violence... except if it somehow involves violence against woman, like what seems to be happening with the new God of War game.
Exactly. I'm all for solid female characters, sure they can be a bit annoying at times if they act like some apha female, but still, forced female characters which doesn't really fit in for equality can gtfo, same goes for race.
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from what movie is that?
