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LeoNatan
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Posts: 73261
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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 Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 18:53 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: | | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ |
Having no idea who YouTube poster is or what his history is, nor do I care, everything said in this video is true. The women on that show are imbeciles. Nothing civil about it. Just like some Saudi cutting the clitoris of a girl would be called names, these retards on the View should be called names also, deservedly so. Ignoring it is just enabling crazy bitches, just like ignoring gay stoning and genital mutilation is enabling. Why is Lutz not taking the issues discussed in the video on their face values instead of ad hominem attacks on the poster? It is irrelevant. |
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LeoNatan
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Posts: 73261
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 19:29 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | Most women are imbeciles |
Now I look at you like an idiot also. |
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 19:32 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | Most women are imbeciles |
Now I look at you like an idiot also. |
My post had a second part, did you read it? (also, you only perceive me as such, contextually, because you certainly haven't read my opinion about most men).
Also, are you aware that those women laughing in the background account for the behavior that the greatest majority of women actually have while watching those sort of shows?
Perhaps Israeli women are more an exception than the average, but here in Portugal for instance, that is ubiquitous female behavior.
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TSR69
Banned
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Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 20:01 Post subject: |
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The definition of an imbecile according to wikipedia: A medical term used to describe a person with moderate to severe mental retardation, as well as for a type of criminal. It arises from the Latin word imbecillus, meaning weak, or weak-minded. "Imbecile" was once applied to people with an IQ of 26–50, between "moron" (IQ of 51–70) and "idiot" (IQ of 0–25).
Formerly known as iconized
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 20:05 Post subject: |
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| iconized wrote: | | The definition of an imbecile according to wikipedia: A medical term used to describe a person with moderate to severe mental retardation, as well as for a type of criminal. It arises from the Latin word imbecillus, meaning weak, or weak-minded. "Imbecile" was once applied to people with an IQ of 26–50, between "moron" (IQ of 51–70) and "idiot" (IQ of 0–25). |
You're correct, I should rephrase my previous descriptor to moron, although, for some reason, imbecile sounded more appropriate.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73261
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 20:11 Post subject: |
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| iconized wrote: | | The definition of an imbecile according to wikipedia: A medical term used to describe a person with moderate to severe mental retardation, as well as for a type of criminal. It arises from the Latin word imbecillus, meaning weak, or weak-minded. "Imbecile" was once applied to people with an IQ of 26–50, between "moron" (IQ of 51–70) and "idiot" (IQ of 0–25). |
Anyone who haves a laugh at a man (or woman) being dismembered, he fits the prerequisites for imbecile perfectly. |
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 20:15 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | iconized wrote: | | The definition of an imbecile according to wikipedia: A medical term used to describe a person with moderate to severe mental retardation, as well as for a type of criminal. It arises from the Latin word imbecillus, meaning weak, or weak-minded. "Imbecile" was once applied to people with an IQ of 26–50, between "moron" (IQ of 51–70) and "idiot" (IQ of 0–25). |
Anyone who haves a laugh at a man (or woman) being dismembered, he fits the prerequisites for imbecile perfectly. |
Well, technically he wasn't dismembered.
Although, I disagree with your position, there are certain persons who deserve it, and I would certainly let them know that I found some gratification in their agony.
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Lutzifer
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Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 21:46 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | Neon wrote: | | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ |
Having no idea who YouTube poster is or what his history is, nor do I care, everything said in this video is true. The women on that show are imbeciles. Nothing civil about it. Just like some Saudi cutting the clitoris of a girl would be called names, these retards on the View should be called names also, deservedly so. Ignoring it is just enabling crazy bitches, just like ignoring gay stoning and genital mutilation is enabling. Why is Lutz not taking the issues discussed in the video on their face values instead of ad hominem attacks on the poster? It is irrelevant. |
i think i made myself clear but it seems i didnt.
I dont want to be tone-trolling, but since the other thread started out full of misogyny i asked nicely to keep the insults out of the thread. To post a video that has several "cunts" in the first 15 seconds qualifies as trying to insert that misogyny back into the thread.
Why i did not bother to actually discuss the topic of the video itself:
- as above, i think it only was posted to introduce misogyny by proxy back into the thread
- i do not think that it belongs here, because the thread is about video games and women stereotypes, so women cutting off mens penisses seems to be an attempt at derailling the topic (i dont mind it being discussed elsewhere in its own topic and i bet it already has been, when it happened)
On the topic of the video itself: I had seen it when it was initially posted. And while i agree that cutting off a mans penis is fucked up and should not be laughed about, we all did it here when it happened to Bobbitt*. It was easier to make fun in his case, because he got it reattached, but still there is a precedent to that story where the media echo was also one where the tone was more on the funny commentary side. So, imho, somebody with a little media competence should have been able to see that similar news stories had had similar media echo (Yes, fucked up and ctitiqueworty).
Coming from TJ, who is a misogynist and rape-applauder, makes it effectively worthless for me though as the criticism gets dragged down by his idiocy he rages on top of it, that i find it leaves one less informed than just having read a news article on the topic and controversy (i bet the young turks or somebody else did way better commentary one could have dug up, if the topic was actually meant to be discussed and not the tone or the attitude brought back into this thread).
*edit: i cant find threads about it anymore, but there were several here, about that he wanted to shoot / did shoot porn to show off the functionality of his reattached and newly working penis. Since the threads/jokes seem to be gone, it must have been before the last database fuckup (pre 2004?), so if somebody feels wrongly generalized into a crowd of penis-dismemberment joksters, i apologize. I also have never bobitted anyone nor do i condone such actions, but reserve the freedom to still snicker about bobbitts story from time to time.
www.psygamer.net :::: 
Last edited by Lutzifer on Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:06; edited 1 time in total |
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 22:38 Post subject: |
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banned AND unbanned Nhiumewyn after we had a discussion on his post.
Again, i ll ask everybody to keep it civil and free of derogatory terms towards women (like generalized comments or unfactual statemens as "most / all women are morons / imbeciles).
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:16 Post subject: |
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(edit: crap turned into another wall of text....)
Sorry Icon, I was getting offtrack with the movies. Going way off the topic at hand.
I just think its a matter of numbers, and business models.
The type she is, and the type she wants, I say IS in proportion to the target audience ratios.
Lets say out of 100 gamers of the FPS/RPG/ACTION gamers..80 is guys that want to play a 'badass' or a 'hot chick id bang if she was real', 10 is females that dont care what they play, 10 is male that dont care what they play and 1/2 of ALL the females that play them demand leading female roles.
So thats 5 out of 100..sounds about right. For every 100 games there is 5 that have a lead like that that appeals to those women. 80 of them appeal to the "I wanna be a badass vicariously" 16-25 year old guys. and 5% have random roles.
Just like me and FPS game. I cant stand the auto heal, use cover, aim assist "Call of modem battlefeild 3" games. I like the old run and gun UT, Q3, etc types. But they don't make them for me anymore. You know why? I MAY be a loyal customer, but I'm a minority of what the current players want. So they go with what sells, they are business first and foremost after all.
The gaming industry knows, in many of the games she lists, and likes. the vast majority of its players is 16-25 year old men.
Now if they want to make a few extra sales off the target audience, its an easy decision..have a strong, leading woman, that doesn't wear any sexually suggestive clothing...or Plaster her with latex, and the "less armor is more" idea. Which will sell more copies to the larger of the piechart audience?
Sure there is females that wish to see more, and I'm sure guys that want to see less 'bulky meat head" male leads (like me) but of that piechart, we are a small slice. Not worth risking the income loss on, to stay 'politically correct' on characters.
I think thats all it is...to me. Its not a industries hate of women, or 'trying to further stereotypes' its the "art imitates life" in the point of "given the 2 to choose from, who will the 16-25 year olds want to stare at for 40+ gameplay hours. A female in normal clothes and never sexual in anyway..or one in a chainmail thong with lots of low camera angle cutscenes.
I guess what im trying to say is....so what she wants IS a valid need. but until females are shown to consist up to 50% of general game sales, going with the stereotypical "big badass with a gun" and "cute chick you'd want to bang" makes sells for the majority of its playerbase.
Just like camping equipment, or home theater systems, or car audio they know there is women that do all of them, and enjoy the hell out of it. Its mostly men that produce the sales..its not exiling one of the genders, its appealing to and making products that pinpoint the ones that drive it.
I mean take into account say any 'car audio' magazine. most put tricked out cars, and hot girls in bikinis on the cover..why? young males are the ones that buy it. would it make sense to demand that "I want more modest women portrayed as intelligent on the covers with the cars"..it might make sense from a purely 'correct' standpoint. but from a sale and customerbase it wouldn't. The customers LIKE seeing chicks they think they could get if their car looked like the one on the cover. And sadly those same customers rather have looks and airhead over the other.
As sad as it is, ask that same age range of guys which they rather play "Hot bloodraine in tight leather and gun with a lot of assshots" or "Tina the smart independent woman out to right a wrong". The majority of the lients speak with a wallet, and the industry follows with a product.
So the industry isn't to blame at all as she keeps saying. Its the"people who speak with their wallet". She wants change, she need to change the mentality of the majority of the teenage-early 20's males that buy games..
I never said it was right, I never said it was just. Just saying it is what it is, and until 'people' change it wont change.
Raising a few 100k in the name of equality is equal to me raising a few 100k in the name of better FPS games. a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of money made off selling what works now.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:35 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: |
The gaming industry knows, in many of the games she lists, and likes. the vast majority of its players is 16-25 year old men.
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Sorry for just grabbing that one out of context, but i m short for time again, so i ll just add on the above:
No, your statement seems to be wrong. In the usa in 2011 the demographic is quite different (and what i remember from reading on it, when i was still working at Nintendo, i think it is similar for europe):
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf
pages 2 and 3 (the others have interesting facts as well)
average gamer age: 37
18% under 18 years
53% 18-49 years
29% 50+ years
Gender:
58% male
42% female
Women age 18 or older represent a signifcantly greater portion of the
game-playing population (37%) than boys age 17 or younger (13%)
The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is:
41
Of the most frequent game purchasers, 52% are male and 48% are female
"There are games now for pretty much every age, every demographic.”
— Jesse Schell, professor of entertainment technology at Carnegie Mellon University |
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:40 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | DXWarlock wrote: |
The gaming industry knows, in many of the games she lists, and likes. the vast majority of its players is 16-25 year old men.
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Sorry for just grabbing that one out of context, but i m short for time again, so i ll just add on the above:
No, your statement seems to be wrong (and seems to be easily checkable / verifiable with a simple google search). In the usa in 2011 the demographic is quite different (and what i remember from reading on it, when i was still working at Nintendo, i think it is similar for europe):
— Jesse Schell, professor of entertainment technology at Carnegie Mellon University |
But your lumping the entire gaming industry, into the small group of games she keeps pointing out the tropes are in.
Lets narrow that down to the shooter or FPS game sales, see if those ratios still stick.
To apply the ratios from the entire range of games to one or 2 types is erroneous. For example you are saying the number of women that play Mortal Combat, Battlefeild 3, Super Monday Night Combat, or Soul Calibur, is the same as the ones that play, say, more general audience type games?
That was my point, that the games that more 'guys' play are the ones that have the tropes she dislikes.
Your comparison is like the car audio above "50% of radio listeners are women" yea sure. but what ratio of radio listeners that buy 1000 watt amps and kicker subs are women? Very little, its why the ads for those these appeal to guys.
to use stats from every genre, and link it to the 3-4 she talks about is missing the point. Shes not complaining about 'all games' shes complaining about the narrow band of games that just happen to also have majority males playing them
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:45; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:45 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | DXWarlock wrote: |
The gaming industry knows, in many of the games she lists, and likes. the vast majority of its players is 16-25 year old men.
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Sorry for just grabbing that one out of context, but i m short for time again, so i ll just add on the above:
No, your statement seems to be wrong. In the usa in 2011 the demographic is quite different (and what i remember from reading on it, when i was still working at Nintendo, i think it is similar for europe):
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf
pages 2 and 3 (the others have interesting facts as well)
average gamer age: 37
18% under 18 years
53% 18-49 years
29% 50+ years
Gender:
58% male
42% female
Women age 18 or older represent a signifcantly greater portion of the
game-playing population (37%) than boys age 17 or younger (13%)
The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is:
41
Of the most frequent game purchasers, 52% are male and 48% are female
"There are games now for pretty much every age, every demographic.”
— Jesse Schell, professor of entertainment technology at Carnegie Mellon University |
Well, to be fair, (not taking any sides here), but to be fair, the game purchaser doesn't really mean anything.
A great percentage of persons purchase games as a gift for friends or family members.
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TSR69
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:50 Post subject: |
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I guess these statistics are mainly based on the people who register a game and not just the buyers. You can buy a game incognito but when registering you create a profile.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:51 Post subject: |
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Also look at your chart...it skews itself to the argument "47% of games played: boardgames, game shows, trivia, card games".
I Dont think shes complaining any of them have the tropes she dislikes.
of course taking into account that 47% of the games are those, that the 'player age and gender' will be skewed when talking about the specifics of the topic shes on about. As in if 50% of games are of those types, then the VAST majority of the genders and ages listed will be the ones playing those.
Take out those games, and the higher ages and genders that play them..and see if its the same.
Find a chart that specifically deals with FPS/RPG ACTION/COMBAT/SHOOTER types and we can use it.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 11th Aug 2012 23:58 Post subject: |
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I mean realistically without trying to bait an answer...
Do you think that there is equal male to female ratio on games like Fighter games, FPS games, twitch shooter games, and such?
it might be high, like 75% male to 25% female in those genres(thinking myself of people I know, and anyone if I asked them that they know on how many of which they know consider themselves "active gamers").
and i'm NOT defending the chauvinistic outlook the games take. Just pointing out why they do in those genres. The consumer is at fault for showing they want that.
Sex sells, always has, and always will. removing it wont stop the desire for it...that like trying to solve a problem by taking out the effect..not the cause.
Hell take E3 for example, THOSE games are a broad range of the ones talked about, why do they have 'booth babes' and not any "booth hunks?" they KNOW who the majority of people coming to check out the games are...
Again like saying "50% of drivers and female"...but take into account carshows, and there is many many more "car babes" standing near the cars than "men in speedos" 
because even though the general audience of cars is even, in the areas of particular types, there is a disproportional male amount. And the sellers want to give the buyer what he wants to see.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:10; edited 1 time in total
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TSR69
Banned
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Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:09 Post subject: |
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I would like to repost this link:
http://gamesareevil.com/2009/04/gender-representation-is-this-a-mans-game/
I thought it was a good article, certainly the second part. Teen aged guys don't want to be beat by a girl, it virtually castrates them. This recurs in schools as well. The classes are mixed these days. Now we don't need to discuss this but it is a fact that in certain subjects (languages, social skills) girls do better and in other subjects (math, physics) guys score better according to statistics. An alarming trend is that male youngsters have their urge to compete switched off. The will to compete is important to actually achieve something. Could this be caused by conditioning by TV series, movies and games targeted at youngsters that suggests that males should be able to be superior to girls?
Formerly known as iconized
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:12 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: |
But your lumping the entire gaming industry, into the small group of games she keeps pointing out the tropes are in.
Lets narrow that down to the shooter or FPS game sales, see if those ratios still stick.
To apply the ratios from the entire range of games to one or 2 types is erroneous. For example you are saying the number of women that play Mortal Combat, Battlefeild 3, Super Monday Night Combat, or Soul Calibur, is the same as the ones that play, say, more general audience type games?
That was my point, that the games that more 'guys' play are the ones that have the tropes she dislikes. |
that MIGHT be the case, but you cannot come to that conclusion from the data we possess. From what i remember from similar studies i read, the point cannot be made there either, but i m too lazy to find those and quote those as well. Especially since you made the factual statement about the demographics and did not back it up (burden of proof and all that jizz). |
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:13 Post subject: |
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You are making it out like this false ideal of 'superior to girls' only came about since TV and games.
Its been around since recorded time that that wrong ideal is encouraged. Im not trying to belittle you in anyway, it just comes across as almost saying "we was all equal gender wise until this damnable entertainment industry came along and changed it".
I think you are putting the cart before the horse, the ideal that 'men are better' didnt spout up because of TV and games. it spouted up in TV and games because it was already part of the culture to some extent to start with.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:17 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: |
that MIGHT be the case, but you cannot come to that conclusion from the data we possess. From what i remember from similar studies i read, the point cannot be made there either, but i m too lazy to find those and quote those as well. Especially since you made the factual statement about the demographics and did not back it up (burden of proof and all that jizz). |
Wouldn't the proof be in the actual activity itself? a real life working example? If for instance that I was wrong, then taking any random gaming match, the amount of females wouldn't be noticeably higher?
Say we hop into 100 random games of 100 random FPS games on console or PC.The very fact that when a girl is playing one, the ratio is so low that it prompts people to notice one is there to me shows that 'if it is something you take notice of because its rare, then it proves itself as rare".
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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TSR69
Banned
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:18 Post subject: |
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Hmm the software didn't change I think, what changed is the notion that women are equal.
Formerly known as iconized
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:22 Post subject: |
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That notion as always been around, but in any predominantly male activity, its biased towards males.
same as in any predominantly female activity its biased towards females.
Equality of the sexes does not nullify that a gender biased activity is geared towards that gender.
You cant go into a gay bathhouse and expect to see equal ratio of gay to straight men.
You cant go into a FPS shooter and expect to see equal ratio of males that want to "play a baddass or hot chick" and females that want equal rights on avatars. And the games do nothing but reflect that notion..right or wrong as it is.
Not saying it right, again. Just saying that what drives an activity as a majority, drives its content.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:26 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | You are making it out like this false ideal of 'superior to girls' only came about since TV and games.
Its been around since recorded time that that wrong ideal is encouraged. Im not trying to belittle you in anyway, it just comes across as almost saying "we was all equal gender wise until this damnable entertainment industry came along and changed it".
I think you are putting the cart before the horse, the ideal that 'men are better' didnt spout up because of TV and games. it spouted up in TV and games because it was already part of the culture to some extent to start with. |
yes, video games did not bring about a culture of repression and misogyny. And no, nobody ever said that gaming came up with it or introduced it. What is being criticized is that - albeit knowing that women are equal in nearly all regards apart from upper body strength to men - they are still portrayed in age-old stereotypes.
yes, other media are also still often times (hetero)sexist. But we are on a gaming forum, not on a movie forum, or we d be talking about movies now. |
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:28 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | That notion as always been around, but in any predominantly male activity, its biased towards males.
same as in any predominantly female activity its biased towards females.
Equality of the sexes does not nullify that a gender biased activity is geared towards that gender.
You cant go into a gay bathhouse and expect to see equal ratio of gay to straight men.
You cant go into a FPS shooter and expect to see equal ratio of males that want to "play a baddass or hot chick" and females that want equal rights on avatars. And the games do nothing but reflect that notion..right or wrong as it is.
Not saying it right, again. Just saying that what drives an activity as a majority, drives its content. |
But then, what is your point? (considering that I haven't read most of this thread)
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:32 Post subject: |
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And men are also stereotyped...
Almost ever game in the genres mentioned has men as big, hot headed, gun totting badass's that shoot anything the crosshairs hit.
I still think until the 'culture' changes it outlook, changing the media that reflects it wont change squat.
Equal rights for blacks wasn't brought about by pointing out 'blackface' character stereotypes and trying to stop them.
It was stopped by actually changing peoples outlook on the people themselves. ONLY once the outlook upon the race as a whole as equal was changed, was blackface seen as 'rude' and it stopped.
Same here, fighting the effect of cultural outlook, instead of the cause, is playing 'wack a mole' with where it pops up.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:32 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | | Lutzifer wrote: |
that MIGHT be the case, but you cannot come to that conclusion from the data we possess. From what i remember from similar studies i read, the point cannot be made there either, but i m too lazy to find those and quote those as well. Especially since you made the factual statement about the demographics and did not back it up (burden of proof and all that jizz). |
Wouldn't the proof be in the actual activity itself? a real life working example? If for instance that I was wrong, then taking any random gaming match, the amount of females wouldn't be noticeably higher?
Say we hop into 100 random games of 100 random FPS games on console or PC.The very fact that when a girl is playing one, the ratio is so low that it prompts people to notice one is there to me shows that 'if it is something you take notice of because its rare, then it proves itself as rare". |
first: you have not shown it to be so, you have assumed it. What you describe as a measure seems to be problematic as well, as many women do not play as easily identifiable women in games, or play in female clans on private servers from my experience. So that makes simple deductions from checking players lists on public servers or whatever you re implying above problematic.
what you need, is ask the people directly (randomized studies and all that carp). And there are several studies on games/gamers out there.
BUT even if you find a deviation / or skewed distributions for games, it does not take away the argument that that alone is a REASON for developers to passively keep women characters out of games, where they would fit / would make sense / should be in or actively use and promote those stone-age stereotypes. |
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:34 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | | And men are also stereotyped.... |
YES.
and AGAIN. Stereotyping hurts both men and women alike!
And even feminists are saying that themselves (i linked to articles in the other thread).
| DXWarlock wrote: |
Equal rights for blacks wasn't brought about by pointing out 'blackface' character stereotypes and trying to stop them.
It was stopped by actually changing peoples outlook on the people themselves. ONLY once the outlook upon the race as a whole as equal was changed, was blackface seen as 'rude' and it stopped.
Same here, fighting the effect of cultural outlook, instead of the cause, is playing 'wack a mole' with where it pops up. |
you re using a false dichotomy there. Raising awareness and changing culture are not seperable.
Raising awareness about the facts that stereotyping is not wanted by gamers is helping bring change along and every cultural change has been helped along by raising awareness and discussing the issue.
Trying to argue that these problems should not be raised or made aware or ignoring them does not change culture and has usually been the hallmark arguments of the privileged, trying to keep their privilege.
www.psygamer.net ::::
Last edited by Lutzifer on Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:38; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:34 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | DXWarlock wrote: | You are making it out like this false ideal of 'superior to girls' only came about since TV and games.
Its been around since recorded time that that wrong ideal is encouraged. Im not trying to belittle you in anyway, it just comes across as almost saying "we was all equal gender wise until this damnable entertainment industry came along and changed it".
I think you are putting the cart before the horse, the ideal that 'men are better' didnt spout up because of TV and games. it spouted up in TV and games because it was already part of the culture to some extent to start with. |
yes, video games did not bring about a culture of repression and misogyny. And no, nobody ever said that gaming came up with it or introduced it. What is being criticized is that - albeit knowing that women are equal in nearly all regards apart from upper body strength to men - they are still portrayed in age-old stereotypes.
yes, other media are also still often times (hetero)sexist. But we are on a gaming forum, not on a movie forum, or we d be talking about movies now. |
I would say that man, from a general perspective, think in a rather different manner than woman. Also, when it comes to value attribution, conceptualization and identification, women base their rationality primarily on social stratification while men base their rationality primarily on technicality and concreteness.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun, 12th Aug 2012 00:36 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: |
first: you have not shown it to be so, you have assumed it. What you describe as a measure seems to be problematic as well, as many women do not play as easily identifiable women in games, or play in female clans on private servers from my experience. So that makes simple deductions from checking players lists on public servers or whatever you re implying above problematic.
what you need, is ask the people directly (randomized studies and all that carp). And there are several studies on games/gamers out there.
BUT even if you find a deviation / or skewed distributions for games, it does not take away the argument that that alone is a REASON for developers to passively keep women characters out of games, where they would fit / would make sense / should be in or actively use and promote those stone-age stereotypes. |
Well I didnt record the decade of gaming sessions I've had incase I needed in a situation as concrete proof.
So in your experience, based off your counter disbelief..you are saying in any action based game you play, there has been roughly an equal amount of women in the teams?
I dont think we can ever agree...you are saying fixing the games will make it equal. I'm saying until society stops DOING it, it wont change..just take different forms.
The media can only be drive by those that support it. its a byproduct of the consumer that perpetuates it. fix the consumers outlook, not what his outlook causes.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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