Not wanted by gamers, and not wanted by a smaller percentage of gamers isn't the same thing.
Like I said, Im rather sure given the choices, most 18-30 year old gamers 'prefer' to stare at a nice ass and tits while playing their character. Hell of the dozens of MMO's I played over 10-12 years..most my friends played the 'hot female' with that EXACT reason "I dont want to stare at a guys ass for months". They passively support it by wanting a character they like looking at in a thong and chainmail top.
So a niche of the players are willing to fight against the problem, while many actively desire it.
I myself dont care what I play. But many do, even if on a primal level of lust. and that drives the market.
How is changing the market going to stop their desire? how will it 'help sales' as that IS the end goal of a business..to make sales.
Yes making aware is good, but in the end..it comes down to for most "yes we are aware of it, but its just a game..and I want to see tits and ass for the money I payed.." so the market provides.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
You are making it out like this false ideal of 'superior to girls' only came about since TV and games.
Its been around since recorded time that that wrong ideal is encouraged. Im not trying to belittle you in anyway, it just comes across as almost saying "we was all equal gender wise until this damnable entertainment industry came along and changed it".
I think you are putting the cart before the horse, the ideal that 'men are better' didnt spout up because of TV and games. it spouted up in TV and games because it was already part of the culture to some extent to start with.
yes, video games did not bring about a culture of repression and misogyny. And no, nobody ever said that gaming came up with it or introduced it. What is being criticized is that - albeit knowing that women are equal in nearly all regards apart from upper body strength to men - they are still portrayed in age-old stereotypes.
yes, other media are also still often times (hetero)sexist. But we are on a gaming forum, not on a movie forum, or we d be talking about movies now.
I would say that man, from a general perspective, think in a rather different manner than woman. Also, when it comes to value attribution, conceptualization and identification, women base their rationality primarily on social stratification while men base their rationality primarily on technicality and concreteness.
as a neuropsychologist i disagree on how you represent man and woman thinking differently. You re somewhat right on value attributions, but those are cultural norms and can be shown to differ with different cultures to enough degree that i d call it a problematic if not a false factual statement as well in the broadness you have made it here.
It also bears no meaning to the argument so far as you have made no connection to gaming or gaming preferences there. And it just sounds like a rewording of the old naturalist fallacy of women just being dumber, because they have smaller brains...
I don't want to give the wrong impression.. I'm all for it if they get it done. Either way long as the game is good I can play any character.. male, female, hell I can play a gay banana with a strap on and a fetish for road cones up its ass...no difference to me.
I'm just saying raising awareness by a few to a majority that in some way encourages it wont fix anything.
Its like beating ants off you while standing in an ant pile, instead of just getting ride of the ant pile itself.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
And it just sounds like a rewording of the old naturalist fallacy of women just being dumber, because they have smaller brains...
Not to trim just a line of yours either, but its apples and oranges.
the top 2 IQ's ever recorded was of females...but that doesn't make a difference in the fact that some men playing games prefer to see that womans tits and ass almost hanging out while moving her around the screen.
And that's what drives the content of the media.
there is a reason Cammy was listed as one of the top 3 characters in streetfighter..it wasn't because she was a better fighter, or because she was a 'strong willed woman"..
And game creators know this and follow the lead.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Not wanted by gamers, and not wanted by a smaller percentage of gamers isn't the same thing.
Like I said, Im rather sure given the choices, most 18-30 year old gamers 'prefer' to stare at a nice ass and tits while playing their character. Hell of the dozens of MMO's I played over 10-12 years..most my friends played the 'hot female' with that EXACT reason "I dont want to stare at a guys ass for months". They passively support it by wanting a character they like looking at in a thong and chainmail top.
So a niche of the players are willing to fight against the problem, while many actively desire it.
I myself dont care what I play. But many do, even if on a primal level of lust. and that drives the market.
How is changing the market going to stop their desire? how will it 'help sales' as that IS the end goal of a business..to make sales.
Yes making aware is good, but in the end..it comes down to for most "yes we are aware of it, but its just a game..and I want to see tits and ass for the money I payed.." so the market provides.
how does that address my argument that female characters are NOT in games (also the argument originally made in the video i posted).
and i also like games with mature themes and like sex scenes in games. I m not anti-sexuality and the argument has never been against games that have sexual content. If you want to go down that road of argument, it is again about tropes, stereotypes, objectification, abuse/rape etc. It is NOT about having no desirable men / women in games.
But its the very tropes of the 'big breasted air haired sexy vixen" that sells the games.
As disgusting biased towards it that the games are, its been driven to that extreme by the demand for it by example of sales.
How many people bought that beach volleyball game for the amazing lifelike volleyball physics? Replace all the over the top, bubbly, big tittied women in it with actual real woman players..and how would the sales be?
Im NOT saying sales is the end all be all of justification of it. its wrong in any context. Im saying that the noticeable trend is that the people buying it want and desire it. and passively condone it with their money.
IF we can get everyone to agree it needs to stop, and it does. Great its something that should be done. But I dont ever see mens desire to see hot chicks in things they buy changing in any foreseeable future. And for that very reason, it will continue to be a driving force of it.
As since gaming is a 'hobby' it wont ever been seen as enough importance by the majority to deem it 'worth the loss' so to speak, to see such a serious issue as gender rights, put into such a passive passtime. Many of its participants will see it is as the same as any other passtime they partake in..The sole purpose of it is a selfish want to enjoy themselves, and wont want outside influence changing it, even if for the better. if it effects their hobby.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
there is a reason Cammy was listed as one of the top 3 characters in streetfighter..it wasn't because she was a better fighter, or because she was a 'strong willed woman"..
And game creators know this and follow the lead.
streetfighter is a game with nearly no story, so it is understandable that people will be more prone to judge the appearances. And i also know women who perv over video characters in games like that and i think it is ok to do so in most games. Some games with crazy breast-physics sometimes seem to go too far though (even by the standards of those women i know who like it usually). Again, i think the problems do not lie in making women look desirable, but in the other ways they are misrepresented or even cut out of games / genres.
there are some games i actively dislike for their oversexed nature though and do not play them. But thats a personal choice and i do not want to see those games censored. But i think deconstructing games, like bayonetta for example, and pointing out in which ways the game is just oversexed to the point of caricature is worth a video or two.
edit: you re two fast with your replies, but i guess i have replied to your last post with the above as well.
No no I agree totally..and that changing it for the better wont have any 'negative impact" on society. I'm not advocating that changing it will do harm. It would be a good change.
Again, I merely stating that until the consumer stops demanding it by condoning it, even encouraging it with sales.. IE "hmm we put dumb but hot chicks in our games, and on the cover for that 'eye catching; look... they sell 10-15% more than those without them...people must want that, do it more often".
Until that mentality changes, its swimming upstream to stop it. Give the masses a story with depth, and plot, with great acting..and one with depth, and plot, with great acting and some bimbo eyecandy that gives the stereotype of the helpless female that you get to valiantly save as a 'big man', to trigger that male instinct of "Me man, me big and strong to save hot woman!" and the latter will sell more.
A bad trait of mankind as a whole on average.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
so your argument is "the consumer wants it, therefore sexist games" if i may break it down to that, so i dont have to quote again.
i think demand of the customer is somewhat overstated there. Yes, condoning by buying sounds better. But it still feels to me like it misses the mark. Because we can only buy the games that are released. We have no say on what gets produced. That is only in the hands of the developers / producers. And i can see their sexism having a much higher impact on the end-product than actual sales from previously released games with similar content on later games. But yes, it is a factor. The developers / producers are a big factor as well though. And speaking up might help get more games released that arent as sexist as the games we are used to. Hopefully.
I still think if your kids are being conditioned by games, the case is a lost cause to start with.
because if your kid is ignored by you enough to have to take his moral and ideals from things he plays, there is a MUCH bigger problem at home than what game DVD's he owns.
I mean for example, my sons 15, he plays GTA4, even do MP with him on it sometime to have fun (probably one of the worst offending games for it all). Does that mean that I'm a bad parent for letting him? or that hes a bad kid for wanting to?
Does the fact he knows the difference between "fantasy mayhem and characters to enjoy" and "actual people that are more than polygon story arcs" make a difference?
To me it exactly parallels the old worn out "my son was listening to slayer/kiss/megadeth when he committed suicide or beat that woman to death, it must be because of them!" argument.
putting the blame on the context of what they was passively doing as the case, and not the lack of mentors, understanding, communication, and such YEARS before that lead to that point.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
I still think if your kids are being conditioned by games, the case is a lost cause to start with.
because if your kid is ignored by you enough to have to take his moral and ideals from things he plays, there is a MUCH bigger problem at home than what game DVD's he owns.
I mean for example, my sons 15, he plays GTA4, even do MP with him on it sometime to have fun (probably one of the worst offending games for it all). Does that mean that I'm a bad parent for letting him? or that hes a bad kid for wanting to?
Does the fact he knows the difference between "fantasy mayhem and characters to enjoy" and "actual people that are more than polygon story arcs" make a difference?
To me it exactly parallels the old worn out "my son was listening to slayer/kiss/megadeth when he committed suicide or beat that woman to death, it must be because of them!" argument.
putting the blame on the context of what they was passively doing as the case, and not the lack of mentors, understanding, communication, and such YEARS before that lead to that point.
You're making two major assumptions.
The first is the assumption that the morals that he will get from his parents or social life are in any way more valid than the morals that he will get from games.
And the second is that, although he will assimilate a great deal of information from those games, it doesn't guarantee in any way that his future self will be entirely shaped from those same games.
Most of us here in this forum have played the same games and been exposed to the same media as children, and you can clearly see the huge disparity in personality types that exists in an underground forum such as this.
I was arguing the sole case of him getting generally socially assumed negative traits from the games isnt the 'games' fault. he should have parents that cover that to start with. IF his parents aren't guiding him, removing games wont stop something else negative influencing him. He's just a bad case waiting to happen.
Saying to blame media(games) for a mindset a kid is in, is no better than to blame media(metal music) for the mindset a kid is in.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
@Nhiumewyn: Whether we find it good or not, my guess is what society sees as desirable should also be taught to youngsters, a society wouldn't function otherwise. If a society thinks women are equal to men, software (much broader than games) should also transfer that idea.
@DXWarlock: Perhaps you are a good father but I am pretty sure that many parents fail in supervising and guiding their kids well enough. And as said before it is not limited to games. Perhaps you have smart kids, not all kids are smart.
I was arguing the sole case of him getting generally socially assumed negative traits from the games isnt the 'games' fault. he should have parents that cover that to start with. IF his parents aren't guiding him, removing games wont stop something else negative influencing him. He's just a bad case waiting to happen.
Saying to blame media(games) for a mindset a kid is in, is no better than to blame media(metal music) for the mindset a kid is in.
'Something else negative from influencing him', but again, negative from which perspective, society or yours?
@Nhiumewyn: Whether we find it good or not, my guess is what society sees as desirable should also be taught to youngsters, a society wouldn't function otherwise. If a society thinks women are equal to men, software (much broader than games) should also transfer that idea.
@DXWarlock: Perhaps you are a good father but I am pretty sure that many parents fail in supervising and guiding their kids well enough. And as said before it is not limited to games. Perhaps you have smart kids, not all kids are smart.
You cannot coin arguments into society as a whole, software and game developers usually have considerable different mindsets than the regular person.
Also, your assumption, society wouldn't function otherwise, can you clarify that statement or be more specific about what you actually mean?
You cannot coin arguments into society as a whole, software and game developers usually have considerable different mindsets than the regular person.
Yep but that is where parenting steps in. If you think a certain game is not appropriate, your kid will not get it, right? A certain TV series is not appropriate, your kid will not see it, etc.
Nhiumewyn wrote:
Also, your assumption, society wouldn't function otherwise, can you clarify that statement or be more specific about what you actually mean?
If you teach and encourage that women are equal to men but at the same time expose kids to software that shows something completely different you might get unwanted results. To quote myself:
I thought it was a good article, certainly the second part. Teen aged guys don't want to be beat by a girl, it virtually castrates them. This recurs in schools as well. The classes are mixed these days. Now we don't need to discuss this but it is a fact that in certain subjects (languages, social skills) girls do better and in other subjects (math, physics) guys score better according to statistics. An alarming trend is that male youngsters have their urge to compete switched off. The will to compete is important to actually achieve something. Could this be caused by conditioning by TV series, movies and games targeted at youngsters that suggests that males should be able to be superior to girls?
You cannot coin arguments into society as a whole, software and game developers usually have considerable different mindsets than the regular person.
Yep but that is where parenting steps in. If you think a certain game is not appropriate, your kid will not get it, right? A certain TV series is not appropriate, your kid will not see it, etc.
Nhiumewyn wrote:
Also, your assumption, society wouldn't function otherwise, can you clarify that statement or be more specific about what you actually mean?
If you teach and encourage that women are equal to men but at the same time expose kids to software that shows something completely different you might get unwanted results. To quote myself:
I thought it was a good article, certainly the second part. Teen aged guys don't want to be beat by a girl, it virtually castrates them. This recurs in schools as well. The classes are mixed these days. Now we don't need to discuss this but it is a fact that in certain subjects (languages, social skills) girls do better and in other subjects (math, physics) guys score better according to statistics. An alarming trend is that male youngsters have their urge to compete switched off. The will to compete is important to actually achieve something. Could this be caused by conditioning by TV series, movies and games targeted at youngsters that suggests that males should be able to be superior to girls?
Most of us will be exposed to conflicting ideals though the run of our lives, what is the most crucial factor when it comes to personality, is the ability to think critically and always assimilate new information with a skepticism filter.
I, therefore, don't think that impediment is a solution in any way, if I decide that my sons will not watch a particular tv show in my house, they will always be exposed to it in some other form, perhaps a friends house or elsewhere. They should be free to watch what they want, parental guidance should not be based on prohibition, but rather on dialogue.
If you prohibit your children from watching or playing anything, they will do it behind your back one way or another, and they will never open themselves with you for they are aware of the prohibition that was imposed on them. Albeit, if you grant them the freedom to watch and play whatever they want, if the time comes when they are troubled by something, they will most likely ask for your counsel and open themselves with you.
You are right at one point though, if parents keeps forbidding stuff, kids will find other ways or they will avoid parental control. My parents biweekly on Fridays drove off to friends to play cards, while me and my older sister were supposed to get some sleep. At some age (I think age 9 or 10) I went downstairs when they left and watched TV. I watched "Clockwork Orange" at age 10 and I read "The Number of the Beast" from Heinlein at same age. The movie shocked me, but not the book. The book amused me but I did not understand it really well. Reread it at age 12 with better results. Hmm parents who have no insight about the intellect of their kids are the worst ones.
You are right at one point though, if parents keeps forbidding stuff, kids will find other ways or they will avoid parental control. My parents biweekly on Fridays drove off to friends to play cards, while me and my older sister were supposed to get some sleep. At some age (I think age 9 or 10) I went downstairs when they left and watched TV. I watched "Clockwork Orange" at age 10 and I read "The Number of the Beast" from Heinlein at same age. The movie shocked me, but not the book. The book amused me but I did not understand it really well. Reread it at age 12 with better results. Hmm parents who have no insight in the intellect of their kids are the worst ones.
I also watched Clockwork Orange, The Exorcist and Apocalypse Now at a rather young age, while in similar circumstances. And they didn't shocked me in the slightest, back then I never understood the nature of the prohibition.
Most parents have no insight on the intelligence of their children, specially when the children far surpass the intellect of their parents.
that seems weird, as the stuff i read so far always indicated that women were suffering more from co-ed, especially in science classes, because they act more risk-averse and less confident then. That boys have similar issues in classes that seem to be traditionally more fitting of women's stereotypical skills seems interesting. If you find more on it, be sure to link here.
I was arguing the sole case of him getting generally socially assumed negative traits from the games isnt the 'games' fault. he should have parents that cover that to start with. IF his parents aren't guiding him, removing games wont stop something else negative influencing him. He's just a bad case waiting to happen.
Saying to blame media(games) for a mindset a kid is in, is no better than to blame media(metal music) for the mindset a kid is in.
from studies of media effects we know that they are not causal, but can have a mediator role (e.g. somebody who is already frustrated / violent can get more violent through media or look for things to copy in media).
When it comes to gender it is not so much about having a principally negative effect, but rather about model learning and thereby either teaching or perpetuating gender stereotypes.
I strongly agree with what you said earlier too, where you pointed out that it is important that parents watch / play stuff with their kids and teach them "media competence", because if a kid really learns more from games / tv about the world than from the parents, that is usually a sign of bad parenting and blaming games / media is stupid in cases like those.
Well I was one of those kids that had to partially educate himself and I am from a middle class family. Bad parenting is much more common then you might think.
Anyway some statistics from the Netherlands about the number of men en women finishing university (unfortunately I couldn't find an English page for this topic): link
It pretty much shows that women surpassed men some time ago already here.
I dunno what gender suffers more from mixed classes, but it seems a good idea to separate girls and guys again for most classes. Equality doesn't mean we are the same, the brain of men and women are different. But the reason I brought this was, I was trying to make a link between this phenomena and the article I posted earlier that said:
Quote:
Action games appear to be aimed primarily at a male audience, and I feel that the designers may have determined that including female characters may result in “castrating” the male audience in one sense, removing the satisfaction of proving their masculinity against others by adding the possibility that they may get “beaten by a girl”.
Last edited by TSR69 on Mon, 13th Aug 2012 00:43; edited 1 time in total
Well I was one of those kids that had to partially educate himself and I am from a middle class family. Bad parenting is much more common then you might think.
Anyway some statistics from the Netherlands about the number of men en women finishing university (unfortunately I couldn't find an English page for this topic): link
It pretty much shows that women surpassed men some time ago already here.
I dunno what gender more from mixed classes, but it seems a good idea to separate girls and guys again for most classes. Equality doesn't mean we are the same, the brain of men and women are different. But the reason I brought this was, I was trying to make a link between this phenomena and the article I posted earlier that said:
Quote:
Action games appear to be aimed primarily at a male audience, and I feel that the designers may have determined that including female characters may result in “castrating” the male audience in one sense, removing the satisfaction of proving their masculinity against others by adding the possibility that they may get “beaten by a girl”.
I would argue that academic achievement isn't indicative of anything, other that it seems to exist a clear difference in how man and women learn.
Lutzifer may be more in depth than me in this regard, but I would say that generally, women stimulate themselves to assimilate information primarily focused in the achievement of a social goal, a potential good job, a good reputation or status. While man, although also goal oriented, seem to be more stimulated by the prospect of problem solving outside the domain of social interest.
That is why women surpassing man in academia doesn't surprise me in the slightest, mainly because the entire foundation of academia, with a few notable exceptions in certain scientific fields, is to propel the person to achieve a goal of sociological nature.
The Telegraph article seems to suggest that teenage boys are underachieving at the moment though. I think I have read some article that suggests that is happening as well in the Netherlands.
Of course if you look at the choice of study, women make other choices then men in general but there also women doing mathematics, physics, etc.
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