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 Posted: Sun, 9th Sep 2012 21:54 Post subject: |
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The angles on mine aren't terrible, but then... I don't use my PC monitor for anything other than sitting in front of. We always had an actual TV in the bedroom for using like that - never had to use my PC (which is in the living room)
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| Posted: Sun, 9th Sep 2012 21:57 Post subject: |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Sun, 9th Sep 2012 22:55 Post subject: |
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shit.
so 27inchers are out?
I've found these. all tn led
Benq GL2750HM
iiyama ProLite E2773HDS
iiyama ProLite X2775HDS
LG Flatron E2770V-BF
AG Neovo LW-27 (LED) Full HD
So now the question is:
Is it better to get other than tn, 23,24 incher or one of the above tn led inchers ? Price is equally the same.
So I guess it's like shitty 24 ips vs good tn panels? (as far as tn does that is)
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 07:13 Post subject: |
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another thread bashing TN while ignoring downsides of other LCD techs.
IPS for example has blacks that appear blue, and all picture appears cold and blueish when compared to TN. also response time isn't ideal for gaming and that horrible white glow when viewed off angle in the dark room http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8-VeiDdfsPofS2Misczd3LpuqOB7E1K9SEw9v20-eDpRMiGdQWufWK1jY
http://i51.tinypic.com/11b2qae.jpg
*VA panels have terrible response time, but they are almost never used for desktop monitors so irrelevant.
so in the end TN is a pretty good option for home computer monitor that will mostly be used for entertainment. it has the best response times, really good colors (latest TN monitors have as good colors as IPS), 120Hz etc.
P.S. all LCD techs are deeply flawed imo, we just have to wait it out until we get affordable OLED monitors
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 08:04 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | Just a personal note: I've never really understood the fascination with viewing angles when it comes to a PC monitor -- sure you'd want to make sure TVs could be seen properly no matter where you sit in the room, but why PC monitors? Mine is a TN panel (due to how old the monitor is) and my position in front of the monitor is fixed - it never changes. I'm always directly in front of the screen looking dead-on at it, so who cares if I can't view it from the top or extreme sides? 
I'm not taking the piss here, I would really like to know why viewing angles are so important on screens that are less than 3 ft away from you. |
I use my monitor to watch series and movies from my bed, not from my chair, so when I lie down the picture becomes dark.
Plus the color reproduction sucks if you need to do some graphics work.
I noticed that when I was working with one layout in InDesign. I started to work sitting straight up, but after a while (editing pictures in PS and stuff), I kinda sink in my chair, and end up sitting in weird positions 
So my view wasn't straight at the monitor, but about 30° underneath, and I continued working, like everything was fine....
And then I got back up to a normal position, only to notice the drastic color change...
So yeah, TN sucks for that kind of work, or for watching movies from afar. But for gaming they are pretty good 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 08:16 Post subject: |
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| Intel_NVIDIA wrote: | another thread bashing TN while ignoring downsides of other LCD techs.
IPS for example has blacks that appear blue, and all picture appears cold and blueish when compared to TN. also response time isn't ideal for gaming and that horrible white glow when viewed off angle in the dark room http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8-VeiDdfsPofS2Misczd3LpuqOB7E1K9SEw9v20-eDpRMiGdQWufWK1jY
http://i51.tinypic.com/11b2qae.jpg
*VA panels have terrible response time, but they are almost never used for desktop monitors so irrelevant.
so in the end TN is a pretty good option for home computer monitor that will mostly be used for entertainment. it has the best response times, really good colors (latest TN monitors have as good colors as IPS), 120Hz etc.
P.S. all LCD techs are deeply flawed imo, we just have to wait it out until we get affordable OLED monitors |
So basically you are saying that TN has better colors than IPS (which was made just to get better and more accurate colors than TN + better viewing angles). Also that IPS glow is pretty much invidual in panels (yours picture is pretty much showing the most extreme case on IPS glow). In my Dell, black is black, and colors are very deep and rich compared to any TN panel i have owned. Also for gaming, i cant see any ghosting or lag compared to my 120hz TN LG panel (120hz vs 60hz is clearly seen, but i can live with that compared how good the colors are on IPS and the uber resolution).
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 08:16 Post subject: |
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That looks like backlight bleed to me, and my TN panel LCD has that also...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 10:06 Post subject: |
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Oh god, the amount of bullshit going on here 
Particularly this one is fucking hilarious:
| Intel_NVIDIA wrote: | | IPS for example has blacks that appear blue, and all picture appears cold and blueish when compared to TN. |
Where the fuck are you getting this horseshit from? No, really, I want to know because I need to find whoever told you this and slap them in the face for being a fucking retard. The only time you get a slight purple-ish (not blue) tint is when viewing from extreme off-angles. At which point you can't even really see the image anymore on a TN panel anyway.
IPS glow is panel-specific and mostly occurs on cheaper panels (as is to be expected). The one you linked to is an extreme example, here's an image of the FS2332: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/pictures/eizofs2332_large5.jpg - what you see there is backlight bleeding, not IPS glow - this thing has none of that. That white shit in the middle is the image Rasmus puts on to test this, here's an image of the S27A850: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/pictures/samsungs27a850d_large4.jpg - same shit. Please note how the "inferior" IPS panel has a better black level, no greyish tint. Less bleeding as well. Yet the 850D costs roughly 600 EUR, the FS2332 about 370 (or 300 via Fnatic).
TN gets close to IPS in terms of colours? Sure, with an ICC profile and a colorimeter - you got one or even know how they work? No, didn't think so. Also, for a TN monitor that can be calibrated to get that accurate, you'll be paying a serious premium; you're looking at stuff like Samsung's S27A950D (or 850 like above) for that. Your sub 300 EUR panels won't get to 2.2dE; they'll get close to it at best. IPS panels will always be better than TN at this at similar price levels. Moreover, even a calibrated TN panel will exhibit a slight coloured tint even when calibrated (often resulting in blueish or redish blacks, greenish is very uncommon). While we're going on about display characteristics: a calibrated TN panel sits at 50-70% of its advertised contrast, whereas an IPS panel typically can't reach as high of a contrast, but also retains that level when calibrated. Advertised values != real-world values.
Response time not "ideal" for gaming? Outside 120Hz TN panels, they are just as fast. A half-decent IPS panel (which includes cheap solutions like the LG IPS236V) has less than one frame of input lag, just like a TN monitor. Also, due to the way the panels work, the advertised "2ms" on TN panels is more along the lines of 5-7 on average (that 2ms is only on GTG), whereas for IPS "6ms" actually pretty much means 6ms.
I'm going to go a bit further on this one, because this is a subject where you and many others are so fucking wrong. Because of how TN works, a GTG change can take just 2ms; but a BTB (or even a GTG change other than the ideal one they advertise with) change will take upwards of 20ms. The ratio between lowest and highest response time is anywhere from 1:10 to 1:15. For IPS, this same ratio is only 1:2 to 1:2.5 or so; meaning that a "6ms" IPS panel will stay under that one frame of input lag at all times (if you're math-impaired: 2.5 * 6 = 15ms, 1000/60 = 16.666667 ms).
So no, IPS are not worse for gaming unless you're looking at a 120Hz panel. However, to get a 120Hz panel that is capable of accurately displaying colours, you'll be paying twice as much as for an IPS monitor that is just as good (if not better, as explained above) for gaming as any 2ms TN monitor. Oh, and want proof? Find a paper called "Liquid Crystal Displays with High Image Quality and Fast Response Time" from two Korean guys (both called "Lee", typical  ); this paper is a decade old now, just to show you that IPS has been fine for that long already.
For the shit about colours and contrast, just read the stuff on FlatpanelsHD or TFTCentral, this topic has been covered numerous times. Everyone but you says that out of all the panel technologies, IPS is still by far superior when it comes to colour accuracy. If you want, I'll ask Rasmus to do a serious article on TN vs. IPS, he knows more about it than you or I do. Considering he recommends 2 IPS monitors and even one VA for gaming, I think you can already see the outcome of that one though.
TL;DR version: you're wrong.
@ KC: I still say fuck TN. You're not going to get a 120 Hz panel anyway, which is the ONLY reason one should buy TN. You can get plenty of IPS monitors in your price range. Just use some price comparison site to filter out all TN monitors and start checking reviews on the IPS monitors. Monitors are one area where I will give 0 recommendations bar the ones I've personally used, because there are too many of them. Your best bet is still the U2312HM I'm guessing, 27" is just going to fall outside your price range unless you're willing to go for a shit panel (regardless of whether it's IPS or TN).
I can't say it often enough, but unless you're getting a 120 Hz TN monitor, a 6ms IPS monitor is just as good -if not slightly better- than any 60Hz (2ms) TN monitor. I'm a twitch FPS gamer and held on to my CRT for a long time because good LCDs were so expensive back then and I'm having 0 issues with my "shit and slow" 6ms IPS.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 11:17 Post subject: |
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Don't take my word for it, just look at the reviews. Input lag is less than one frame just as with TN and that's the most important part. The response time stuff above may not mean much to you, but to make that long story short: TN 2ms is an optimal value, TN also has peaks that go well beyond 20ms, IPS doesn't. So TN has better peak GTG response time, the overall average between the two technologies is roughly the same.
Good sites to use are FlatpanelsHD.com, DigitalVersus.com and TFTCentral.co.uk. Out of these, FPHD has the most technical details most of the time, DV allows you to easily compare (see here for the old U2311H vs. your 226BW for example, which shows the one weakness of the U2311H, which was its panel lottery; DV got one with fucked blue levels, something I haven't seen in the 2312 yet). Whether the U2312HM does 1:1 pixel mapping I'm not sure, but I assume it does, most do nowadays.
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 11:22 Post subject: |
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Ph christ.. panel lottery? even with U2312HM ?
I guess thats settled now and there is only one type out there
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 12:06 Post subject: |
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Tell me about panel lottert ;/ 226bw had the biggest lottery ever. it was like 5 panels and I got the worst
OK finals. After wrowsing shops and price comparisons those are the one worth considering
23'' Dell U2312HM
23'' LG Flatron IPS234V-PN
23'' Asus VS239H
23'' iiyama ProLite XB2374
All 4 above are IPS. Dell seems the best. Other screens seems to have hdmi instead of displayport which is good
24'' iiyama ProLite X2472HD-B1
This one is VA. tho it got good reviews.
All of the above screens have led backlight. SO that is 5 screens. That 24 va iiyama seems nice too. I am looking into is
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 13:03 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | Oh god, the amount of bullshit going on here
Particularly this one is fucking hilarious:
| Intel_NVIDIA wrote: | | IPS for example has blacks that appear blue, and all picture appears cold and blueish when compared to TN. |
Where the fuck are you getting this horseshit from? No, really, I want to know because I need to find whoever told you this and slap them in the face for being a fucking retard. The only time you get a slight purple-ish (not blue) tint is when viewing from extreme off-angles. At which point you can't even really see the image anymore on a TN panel anyway.
IPS glow is panel-specific and mostly occurs on cheaper panels (as is to be expected). The one you linked to is an extreme example, here's an image of the FS2332: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/pictures/eizofs2332_large5.jpg - what you see there is backlight bleeding, not IPS glow - this thing has none of that. That white shit in the middle is the image Rasmus puts on to test this, here's an image of the S27A850: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/pictures/samsungs27a850d_large4.jpg - same shit. Please note how the "inferior" IPS panel has a better black level, no greyish tint. Less bleeding as well. Yet the 850D costs roughly 600 EUR, the FS2332 about 370 (or 300 via Fnatic).
TN gets close to IPS in terms of colours? Sure, with an ICC profile and a colorimeter - you got one or even know how they work? No, didn't think so. Also, for a TN monitor that can be calibrated to get that accurate, you'll be paying a serious premium; you're looking at stuff like Samsung's S27A950D (or 850 like above) for that. Your sub 300 EUR panels won't get to 2.2dE; they'll get close to it at best. IPS panels will always be better than TN at this at similar price levels. Moreover, even a calibrated TN panel will exhibit a slight coloured tint even when calibrated (often resulting in blueish or redish blacks, greenish is very uncommon). While we're going on about display characteristics: a calibrated TN panel sits at 50-70% of its advertised contrast, whereas an IPS panel typically can't reach as high of a contrast, but also retains that level when calibrated. Advertised values != real-world values.
Response time not "ideal" for gaming? Outside 120Hz TN panels, they are just as fast. A half-decent IPS panel (which includes cheap solutions like the LG IPS236V) has less than one frame of input lag, just like a TN monitor. Also, due to the way the panels work, the advertised "2ms" on TN panels is more along the lines of 5-7 on average (that 2ms is only on GTG), whereas for IPS "6ms" actually pretty much means 6ms.
I'm going to go a bit further on this one, because this is a subject where you and many others are so fucking wrong. Because of how TN works, a GTG change can take just 2ms; but a BTB (or even a GTG change other than the ideal one they advertise with) change will take upwards of 20ms. The ratio between lowest and highest response time is anywhere from 1:10 to 1:15. For IPS, this same ratio is only 1:2 to 1:2.5 or so; meaning that a "6ms" IPS panel will stay under that one frame of input lag at all times (if you're math-impaired: 2.5 * 6 = 15ms, 1000/60 = 16.666667 ms).
So no, IPS are not worse for gaming unless you're looking at a 120Hz panel. However, to get a 120Hz panel that is capable of accurately displaying colours, you'll be paying twice as much as for an IPS monitor that is just as good (if not better, as explained above) for gaming as any 2ms TN monitor. Oh, and want proof? Find a paper called "Liquid Crystal Displays with High Image Quality and Fast Response Time" from two Korean guys (both called "Lee", typical ); this paper is a decade old now, just to show you that IPS has been fine for that long already.
For the shit about colours and contrast, just read the stuff on FlatpanelsHD or TFTCentral, this topic has been covered numerous times. Everyone but you says that out of all the panel technologies, IPS is still by far superior when it comes to colour accuracy. If you want, I'll ask Rasmus to do a serious article on TN vs. IPS, he knows more about it than you or I do. Considering he recommends 2 IPS monitors and even one VA for gaming, I think you can already see the outcome of that one though.
TL;DR version: you're wrong.
@ KC: I still say fuck TN. You're not going to get a 120 Hz panel anyway, which is the ONLY reason one should buy TN. You can get plenty of IPS monitors in your price range. Just use some price comparison site to filter out all TN monitors and start checking reviews on the IPS monitors. Monitors are one area where I will give 0 recommendations bar the ones I've personally used, because there are too many of them. Your best bet is still the U2312HM I'm guessing, 27" is just going to fall outside your price range unless you're willing to go for a shit panel (regardless of whether it's IPS or TN).
I can't say it often enough, but unless you're getting a 120 Hz TN monitor, a 6ms IPS monitor is just as good -if not slightly better- than any 60Hz (2ms) TN monitor. I'm a twitch FPS gamer and held on to my CRT for a long time because good LCDs were so expensive back then and I'm having 0 issues with my "shit and slow" 6ms IPS. |
just because you swear a lot and have a tough guy act doesn't make your posts look smart or true.
just as example, here's review from the latest LG IPS display with advertised response time of 5ms, but after they tested it has a whooping 27.5ms response time. your statement "whereas for IPS "6ms" actually pretty much means 6ms." is utter nonsense, just like most of your post.
http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/lg-m2752d-p13926/test.html
colors were also pretty poor on this particular model (and there are MANY IPS displays out there with poor colors). there are cheaper TNs that does colors far better than this particular LG IPS.
so your other claim that IPS always has better colors also couldn't be more wrong.
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 13:06 Post subject: |
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This has actually been really enlightening for me too, thanks guys!
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 13:27 Post subject: |
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| Intel_NVIDIA wrote: | just because you swear a lot and have a tough guy act doesn't make your posts look smart or true.
just as example, here's review from the latest LG IPS display with advertised response time of 5ms, but after they tested it has a whooping 27.5ms response time. your statement "whereas for IPS "6ms" actually pretty much means 6ms." is utter nonsense, just like most of your post.
http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/lg-m2752d-p13926/test.html
colors were also pretty poor on this particular model (and there are MANY IPS displays out there with poor colors). there are cheaper TNs that does colors far better than this particular LG IPS.
so your other claim that IPS always has better colors also couldn't be more wrong. |
Bravo on not reading, what they show is the ghosting time, which is a slightly different metric. You then also purposely picked a monitor/TV, which has a bunch of scaling circuits and such that slow it down like hell. Here's a "counter" "example": http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/lg-flatron-ips226v-p10192/test.html
Want a longer list? Maybe you should've bothered to actually check what ghosting time is by clicking on the link: http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/ghosting-time-test-tv-monitor-laptop-tablet-38-mobile-reviews-a1104.html
Please note how high up the U2211H is on that list. Well ahead of your thirteen-in-a-dozen TN panels. Like I said, you need an A+ TN panel to compare to an A or even A- grade IPS panel (because that's all the panels in the 22"/23" Ultrasharp series are). DV have been using this metric for a long time now and it's a good one - but it's not a direct analogue to pixel response time.
What you picked there is an exceptionally cheap panel (27" IPS with TV tuner and everything for less than 300?), the equivalent would be a sub 150 EUR 27" TN panel with the same functionality - which don't exist (cheapest without TV is some BenQ piece of crap at 180 - an extra 120 doesn't get you a decent IPS panel *AND* TV functionality). Talk about cherry picking. Shall I pick one of the 60-70 EUR TN panels you find at supermarkets for comparison? Absolutely fair, right?
Not every IPS panel is good, of course it isn't. But if you actually pick a decent one like you'd pick a decent TN panel, they are well ahead of TN on every metric until you throw 120Hz into the mix.
And where do I swear a lot? Because I used "fuck" a few times? Oh dear 
Last edited by Werelds on Mon, 10th Sep 2012 13:36; edited 1 time in total
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Sep 2012 13:31 Post subject: |
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Starting to suspect that Intel_NVIDIA is Slizza or w/e that guys name was... 
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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