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 Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 07:17 Post subject: |
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| Breezer_ wrote: | I really dont understand the decision to go for 1.8Ghz 8-core processor, since 4 Ghz 4-core would have been faster. Not to mention its some crippled AMD processor, so that is not gonna be so good. But yeah i can see to the future, where we need some badass 8-core processor to make the games run good, then some shit AMD APU chip is blasting through them (optimization much  ?) |
Well, regarding all new AMD processors, I always considered them 4 core processors really, with 2 APU units per core, then true 8 core processors.
I mean they do have as many APU units as those "cores", but just 1 FPU unit per 2 cores and some other components. Unlike Intel which uses 1:1 ratio.
In theory, if you know how to optimize the games to use all that power from ALUs, but not get crippled with twice less FPU units, you are good. But it is surely not true for games on PC at this moment.
Still, one good thing regarding this is that games will get more optimized for AMD and its "weird" architecture (half FPU per core)
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 07:18 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 03:33; edited 1 time in total
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 07:22 Post subject: |
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they're right. The ps4 WILL outperform MOST PC's. Because MOST pc's aren't gaming pc's.
The point he makes is totally irrelevant and useless, but he didn't tell a lie ... technically ...
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 07:34 Post subject: |
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I don't get it. What is it that you people are whining about?
The guy is right. The majority of people have low-end shitty PC's that barely are able to cope with browsing the Internet. Most people do not upgrade for years. Hence the PS4 will be better than most PC's for years.
The comparison is a tad bit unfair though. He doesn't compare the average "gamers" rig with the average PS4 console. If he did, it would be a much much closer comparison. And this is where he misses the mark. Still, his original statement is correct. And those who are bitching about it would do well to examine what he really said before jumping to conclusions.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 07:45 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | I don't get it. What is it that you people are whining about?
The guy is right. The majority of people have low-end shitty PC's that barely are able to cope with browsing the Internet. Most people do not upgrade for years. Hence the PS4 will be better than most PC's for years.
The comparison is a tad bit unfair though. He doesn't compare the average "gamers" rig with the average PS4 console. If he did, it would be a much much closer comparison. And this is where he misses the mark. Still, his original statement is correct. And those who are bitching about it would do well to examine what he really said before jumping to conclusions. |
I did that: http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2137950#2137950
He's still right.
Even Valve were saying the most money to be made is by low end PCs -> the PCs most people use for games.
It's an old slide from 2008 (so 2+ years after the Xbox 360 came out), but the situation hasn't changed. Most gamers don't have monster rigs.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 07:47 Post subject: |
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Reason why they went with 1.8Ghz processor is because consoles don't need that much CPU power for rendering thread (which is always the heaviest task, and it cannot be split over multiple threads). On PC 90% of that time is eaten by drivers and OS, allowing consoles to perform 20-30x more operations in the same time as a PC.
(This generally influences number of objects draw on screen, shadows and reflections. Don't confuse this with GPU power, that remains nearly equal as with a PC equivalent card. )
All the other subsystems, like AI, physics, resource streaming, simulation, can easily be split onto separate cores and normally don't require a powerful CPU. So a pretty good decision to make it 8 core.
Also having developers 100% sure all of their systems have EIGHT GB of GDDR5 will make the GPU side of it stand out as well, as developers find uses for it.
-----------------
EDIT: Something on that slide consolis posted, ties in with what I wrote and is completely and utterly wrong:
If it runs well on console its easy to make it run well on a PC.
Current-gen consoles can draw ~50 000 objects on screen. NEWEST CPU can draw maybe 4000-5000, and that's an optimistic estimate.
This is an extreme case, and most developers know the PC good enough not to do that anymore, but it has happened many times before. One example that comes to mind is GTA4.
And once you make a mistake of having too many objects, there is just no easy fixing it. You need to redesign most of your models, textures and levels.
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 08:15 Post subject: |
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since piracy killing pc gaming and this console is the console of the dreams and will out-power every pc for the next few years,so i guess i will buy it today...i will even take 2 if the price will be good,maybe even 3 
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 09:06 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 03:33; edited 2 times in total
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24636
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 09:09 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | On PC 90% of that time is eaten by drivers and OS, allowing consoles to perform 20-30x more operations in the same time as a PC. |
Uhm, the PS4 will have OS, API's etc. as well that the CPU will have to take care of as well as in-game online capabilities and UI's. It's basically an AMD low-powered APU-based PC-console with ultra-fast shared RAM. Developers write shaders, use API's etc. just as always. The difference now is that they are promising 60fps instead of 30. I'd like to see how that ends up with high-end games. Console users used to "smooth" 30fps will suddenly notice drops from 60 to 45 and become annoyed.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 09:28 Post subject: |
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Not an OS in any traditional sense unless they change the architecture significantly from ps3 and 360. (Which I don't think they have talked about, but many devs would be pissed if they did).
Once the game is started the commands go pretty much directly to the hardware. They do provide DirectX-like API (Xbox) and libGCM API (PS), but their commands go pretty much directly to the hardware, nothing like on the PC.
There is no virtual memory and nearly no memory management of any kind, programs don't need to fight for resource access and there is no need to manage that. And more importantly it all runs on the same hardware so there is no need for drivers either.
With PC OSes commands go through multiple layers of expensive OS APIs which ensure everything is done properly and then through drivers which come with their own overhead.
Interface you see pop-up during gameplay cannot be called an OS, it's just something that runs separately from your game, and while it takes a few CPU cycles to run that, it doesn't directly influence performance of rendering or game operations.
UI you see while not playing a game, is just another program, not an OS.
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 09:48 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | The statement is accurate. Most people run dual cores and have a GPU with 1GB VRAM.
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
He didn't say top of the line PCs, he didn't say midrange PCs, he just said most PCs, no? Then nothing wrong with what he said. |
This absolutely, he is absolutely right in this. I don't see a major hardware-upgrading happening for most of the Steam users soon. So yes, PS4 will be on par for the next couple of years with most PCs.
PC: Yes. Console: No.
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garus
VIP Member
Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 10:08 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 22:01; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 10:44 Post subject: |
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| BearishSun wrote: | EDIT: Something on that slide consolis posted, ties in with what I wrote and is completely and utterly wrong:
If it runs well on console its easy to make it run well on a PC.
This is an extreme case, and most developers know the PC good enough not to do that anymore, but it has happened many times before. |
Well it's a slide with tips for PC exclusive studios going multiplatform. So it's definitely a case of "developers that know the PC good enough"  
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 10:50 Post subject: |
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when the ps3 and 360 were launched it took quite a few years for pc gaming to catch up and finally supersede the consoles again. I don't see why this new gen of consoles will be any different to be honest.
Sure, bad ports from a lack of developer support was a big kick in the teeth for pc gaming at the time, but putting that aside, you have to remember the console hardware is purely dedicated to only pushing out games without the need to run a multitude of background services like a pc does. So even if on paper the two systems hardware is similarly matched, chances are the console will fare better in terms of performance. Besides, only a small minority of pc gamers have enthusiast level rigs (how many people currently have £800 graphic cards in their computer right now?), contrary to owning a £400 new console that will probably achieve the same results at the fraction of the cost.
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Neon
VIP Member
Posts: 18934
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:18 Post subject: |
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| xyzg wrote: | | when the ps3 and 360 were launched it took quite a few years for pc gaming to catch up and finally supersede the consoles again. |
lolno
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xExtreme
Posts: 5811
Location: 43 6C 75 6A 2D 4E 61 70 6F 63 61
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:22 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:23 Post subject: |
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SONY
GRAN TURISMO 5
After gt5, sold my ps3, and promissed myself, never more believe a word SONY say about anything.
| Sin317 wrote: | | while you can't "turn gay", you can cut off your balls. believe me, you'll never think of women again. |
| zmed wrote: | | Or just a defense mechanism. If you fart, you'll most definitely smell it so your brain tells you it ain't bad as strangerfarts. |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:24 Post subject: |
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ok so when battlefield 4 is released for PS4 & we should expect 128+ player online games running 60+fps on the biggest maps & still looking as good as a high spec PC at high settings
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51396
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:30 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: | | xyzg wrote: | | when the ps3 and 360 were launched it took quite a few years for pc gaming to catch up and finally supersede the consoles again. |
lolno |
This again?! 
| xyzg wrote: | | where were the pc games during that time?. MW2 couldn't even be played with dual core pc's, had to upgrade to quad for the game not to shit out on you. |
Played it with two dual core CPU's, an E4400 overclocked to 3GHz (I think) and an E5200 overclocked to 3.6GHz.
Can't remember the game "shitting out on me" at all.
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
Last edited by tonizito on Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:32; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:31 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: | | xyzg wrote: | | when the ps3 and 360 were launched it took quite a few years for pc gaming to catch up and finally supersede the consoles again. |
lolno |
For high end rigs he's wrong, but for the average gaming rig he's right.
Yeah in late 2006 the 8800GTX obliterated the consoles, but how many bought these $600 cards? It wasn't until mid-2008's a while after the release of the 8800GT sold enough that such horsepower become mainstream.
| xyzg wrote: | where were the pc games during that time?. MW2 couldn't even be played with dual core pc's, had to upgrade to quad for the game not to shit out on you. I was running a Radeon x800 at the time which was similar spec to the 360, most cross platform games ran like poo compared to what I was seeing on the consoles at the time  |
Uh, no.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
Last edited by consolitis on Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:34; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:32 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | Quote: | | On PC 90% of that time is eaten by drivers and OS, allowing consoles to perform 20-30x more operations in the same time as a PC. |
Uhm, the PS4 will have OS, API's etc. as well that the CPU will have to take care of as well as in-game online capabilities and UI's. It's basically an AMD low-powered APU-based PC-console with ultra-fast shared RAM. Developers write shaders, use API's etc. just as always. The difference now is that they are promising 60fps instead of 30. I'd like to see how that ends up with high-end games. Console users used to "smooth" 30fps will suddenly notice drops from 60 to 45 and become annoyed. |
Not comparable at all with the overhead of the Windows OS, drivers, and dx API.
And they're promising 60? Who is? 99% of games will target 30 fps.
Carmack says probably everyone (but him) will target 30.
Yerli says 25-30 fps is acceptable for SP games.
KZ4 runs at 30.
All PS4 trailers released were 30fps trailers.
..
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51396
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:36 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | For high end rigs he's wrong, but for the average gaming rig he's right.
Yeah in late 2006 the 8800GTX obliterated the consoles, but how many bought these $600 cards? It wasn't until mid-2008's a while after the release of the 8800GT sold enough to become mainstream. |
8800GTS 320MB, 8800GTS 640MB, 2900Pro and XT, am I imagining these were released way before mid-2008?
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:41 Post subject: |
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| tonizito wrote: | | consolitis wrote: | For high end rigs he's wrong, but for the average gaming rig he's right.
Yeah in late 2006 the 8800GTX obliterated the consoles, but how many bought these $600 cards? It wasn't until mid-2008's a while after the release of the 8800GT sold enough to become mainstream. |
8800GTS 320MB, 8800GTS 640MB, 2900Pro and XT, am I imagining these were released way before mid-2008? |
Didn't I say you could buy a great GPU in 2006, already? But they were far from popular. The 8800GT (and equivalent ATI card) were.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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trashci
Posts: 922
Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:42 Post subject: |
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@ Bearish: the PS360 both run a fairly "traditional" OS, not sure what you based that statement on (UNIX and WinNT respectively). Consoles need scheduling just the same and the OS is where all the APIs sit.
Where they differ is that a lot that's needed for a desktop OS quite simply isn't there or disabled, just like any other embedded OS. There won't be any real user-space for example. Multitasking will also be severely limited, as it realistically will only have to run two at a time really. Since there's also a unified hardware platform underneath, drivers and APIs are one and the same (almost).
| xyzg wrote: | | Besides, only a small minority of pc gamers have enthusiast level rigs (how many people currently have £800 graphic cards in their computer right now?), contrary to owning a £400 new console that will probably achieve the same results at the fraction of the cost. |
800 pounds pretty gets you a very high end PC, right now. And I'm talking an i5-2500K, 8 GB of RAM and a 7950 or something like that. You don't need, nor did you ever need, an 800 pound GPU to run things.
| xyzg wrote: | | where were the pc games during that time?. MW2 couldn't even be played with dual core pc's, had to upgrade to quad for the game not to shit out on you. |
No, you didn't and I know this for a fact because I was on an E8400.
E8400 + 8800 GTS-640 in 2007 was more than enough to run Crysis, maxed out, at 1280x1024. Fact and even today, that's better than the current consoles can do.
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51396
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Mon, 11th Mar 2013 11:42 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | tonizito wrote: | | consolitis wrote: | For high end rigs he's wrong, but for the average gaming rig he's right.
Yeah in late 2006 the 8800GTX obliterated the consoles, but how many bought these $600 cards? It wasn't until mid-2008's a while after the release of the 8800GT sold enough to become mainstream. |
8800GTS 320MB, 8800GTS 640MB, 2900Pro and XT, am I imagining these were released way before mid-2008? |
Didn't I say you could buy a great GPU in 2006, already? But they were far from popular. The 8800GT (and equivalent ATI card) were. |
Let me guess... according to the steam survey, right?
And what does popularity matter for, really?
They were available, you wanted to have a good PC game back then, you bought one.
End of.
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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