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 Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 08:57 Post subject: |
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Well, as I said, I read most of book 1 - which wasn't very different at all. The same extreme characters - like Drogo the superhero bad-ass and their ultra stupid wedding ceremonies and Joffrey psycho kid.
I'm sure the TV show goes further and maybe that's what is making it seem extra absurd to me. But it seems most fans of the books think they're doing a great job. It's kinda hard to believe the extremes are happening only on TV.
Anyway - these things are subjective. You guys love it - and I think it's too extreme and positively one-sided.
I'm always about characters first. If a story pretends to portray characters as real human beings - then I'll be a harsh critic, because it's what I care most about. GoT seems to try and portray a semi-realistic medieval landscape - and I think the characters are almost exclusively laughable caricatures that might have aspects of real people - but are ultimately there to make an impact on the audience first - and be real a distant second. That's not for me.
When I said "subdued cruelty" I was being sarcastic. Characters like Ramsay and Frey are SO over-the-top evil and utterly pointlessly sadistic that it boggles the mind. Have you noticed what they're like? Literally every single word out of their mouths is about maximising the negative impact they can have - and thereby SHOCK people with their nature.
Maybe a TINY handful of real life people would behave PARTIALLY like that - but the amount of extreme characters on GoT is just ridiculous. It goes both ways - and the Starks are honorable caricatures as well - with basically no fear and superhuman courage.
Jamie is a "balanced" character? Haha - come on. The first thing he did was push a small innocent child to his death (he tried) - and he didn't even blink. Then he torments every person he comes across with his super arrogance, including torturing the Starks with his "wit". So, because he loses an arm and he starts to feel sympathy for a big girl - he's "balanced"? What a joke.
To be fair, I think Martin writes very well when he's not writing people - and I think his dialogue is great. The names are great - and he's excellent with depicting action and so forth.
Yes, he's a great writer in many ways - from what I could tell from book 1. But I think he sucks at writing plausible characters, his plot(s) is weak and almost redundant - and he's obsessed with this tension/shock factor.
We all like different things - and that's fine by me.
I'll leave you to your show in peace 
As for you fisk, take a deep breath and pretend I'm not here. Seems to work better for you than trying to make a logical argument happen!
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 09:45 Post subject: |
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I cannot agree with anything you said, but it's fine since you are right we like different things. There are so many real life monsters that make Joffery and Ramsy look like catholic school boys. Flaying was a normal practice in medieval times.
Again with superheroes. Where? Every character is very much mortal, as been shown plenty of times. Drogo is dead last time I checked, and he died from a simple infection. Not very superhero like.
One-sided? Nope. It might seem like so now, but again, I don't want to spoil books. You cannot take just 1 book and judge the whole series by it. There are going to be 7 books in total so roles will change many times.
Again judging Jamie on just the 2.5 seasons is not fair. There is a story and character arc, and he is going through it. You must read beyond the first 3 books to see it. His arrogance has everything to do with the way he was raised and his lineage.
When did you decide that the show is all about the shock value? After the red wedding? After Ned's beheading? You are right in saying RW was a shock, but that is what makes it so great, not many people saw it coming. If main character died every show, or no main character ever died it would be pretty dull.
But we obviously don't agree and it's fine, and I just feel like I needed to "defend" the show because I, and many, many others, like it.
Sig too big. -Nothing is too big for Fedor. Expect a nasty armbar.
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 12:15 Post subject: |
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Casus, it sounds you never read any history books, most of the "shocking" segments as you call them, dont even touch some of history´s sick twists.
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Il_Padrino
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 13:55 Post subject: |
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About the one sidedness: there are hardly any Starks left, I wouldn't worry about the other side getting their share of the misery in season 4.
There must have been a door there in the wall, when I came in.
Truly gone fishing.
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 14:40 Post subject: |
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| Casus wrote: | Well, as I said, I read most of book 1 - which wasn't very different at all. The same extreme characters - like Drogo the superhero bad-ass and their ultra stupid wedding ceremonies and Joffrey psycho kid.
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Drogo dies from fever basically. Yep that's a heroes ending right there. Joffrey comes off as pretty normal in the context of insane young rulers throughout history (again Henry VIII). You are basically complaining about history, since George R.R. Martin borrows a lot of his ideas straight from European history.
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Anyway - these things are subjective. You guys love it - and I think it's too extreme and positively one-sided.
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Of course they are subjective. Some people think history is extreme as well. But calling it "shock value" is a claim that simply is false. You're trying to make your subjective shock seem as something universal here. And again, it isn't. It's just your reaction.
| Quote: |
I'm always about characters first. If a story pretends to portray characters as real human beings - then I'll be a harsh critic, because it's what I care most about. GoT seems to try and portray a semi-realistic medieval landscape - and I think the characters are almost exclusively laughable caricatures that might have aspects of real people - but are ultimately there to make an impact on the audience first - and be real a distant second. That's not for me. |
You are either a historical illiterate or have simply read too little of it to make such bold statements. Most of the time truth is far stranger than fiction. Ever heard of Vlad Tsepes? Elizabeth Bathory? Anders Behring Breivik? Adolf Hitler? They must seem like laughable caricatures to you.
You're like those kids that write "FAKE" on every YouTube-video, including films from real live war-events. Just because you cannot imagine a reality so gruesome, obviously it is "shock value".
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When I said "subdued cruelty" I was being sarcastic. Characters like Ramsay and Frey are SO over-the-top evil and utterly pointlessly sadistic that it boggles the mind.
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Do you know who the witchfinder's general (Matthew Hopkins) was? This guy used to cut women with knives and if they did not bleed he would put them to the stake. Do you know about Mayan history? Do you know about Josef Mengele? You can't because if you did you would know that people like these have existed throughout history. In the rapes of Nanking they were pretty much every soldier. In medieval Japan cutting the heads off entire villages because one of the villagers acted shamefully was a distinct reality.
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Have you noticed what they're like? Literally every single word out of their mouths is about maximising the negative impact they can have - and thereby SHOCK people with their nature. |
Again you're harping on like a broken record about this. There's like one post in every one of the past five pages where you're whining about shock value. Literally every single word out of you is about maximizing the negative impact of this show. Just stop watching and stop being like a fucking Jehovas witness with your own opinion. You're like an anti-Apple-fanboy on a mission right now.
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As for you fisk, take a deep breath and pretend I'm not here. Seems to work better for you than trying to make a logical argument happen! |
Logical argument out of you? Yes. That would be next to impossible.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
Last edited by fisk on Sun, 16th Jun 2013 14:44; edited 1 time in total
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Sin317
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 14:41 Post subject: |
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still 3 and a half starks left. That's enough.
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:07 Post subject: |
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Count again...
(sansa, arya, bran, rickon and jon. possibly benjen)
I like men now
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:18 Post subject: |
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| Ralph_Wiggum wrote: | Count again...
(sansa, arya, bran, rickon and jon. possibly benjen) |
Jon's a Targaryen, not a Stark.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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sausje
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:22 Post subject: |
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That's just speculation..
I like men now
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Sin317
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:31 Post subject: |
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Jon's parents were Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna. And they probably were married too. Of course this is speculation, but honorable Ned Stark being unfaithful to Catelyn? That's as likely as Joffrey giving a gold coin to a beggar.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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fraich3
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:34 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Jon's parents were Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna. And they probably were married too. Of course this is speculation, but honorable Ned Stark being unfaithful to Catelyn? That's as likely as Joffrey giving a gold coin to a beggar. |
Should probably start with saying that it at this point is purely speculation..
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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Sin317
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:36 Post subject: |
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wouldn't matter anyway. Neddar "made" him his son and that's all that counts. Not like they can do a DNA test or anything,
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:41 Post subject: |
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| fraich3 wrote: | | fisk wrote: | | Jon's parents were Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna. And they probably were married too. Of course this is speculation, but honorable Ned Stark being unfaithful to Catelyn? That's as likely as Joffrey giving a gold coin to a beggar. |
Should probably start with saying that it at this point is purely speculation.. |
Jon being Ned's bastard is speculation too, doesn't stop everyone from harping about it, just saying.
| Sin317 wrote: | | wouldn't matter anyway. Neddar "made" him his son and that's all that counts. Not like they can do a DNA test or anything, |
And whom or what lineage would he protect by claiming such a thing?
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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fraich3
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:52 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | fraich3 wrote: | | fisk wrote: | | Jon's parents were Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna. And they probably were married too. Of course this is speculation, but honorable Ned Stark being unfaithful to Catelyn? That's as likely as Joffrey giving a gold coin to a beggar. |
Should probably start with saying that it at this point is purely speculation.. |
Jon being Ned's bastard is speculation too, doesn't stop everyone from harping about it, just saying. |
Simply no.
Jon is being presented as Ned's son born out of wedlock with some girl, for which there are also numerous speculations, he met. Therefore he is Neds bastard and named Snow rather than Stark. That might be a big lie, but so far it's cannon fact from both the books and the show and until any other theory or speculation is proven correct.
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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Sin317
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 15:55 Post subject: |
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hm, not really. It was Ned who came back from King's landing with a child, declaring it was his with another woman. That is all we know. That, and him having promised Lyanna something, before she died. That's all the facts. It is highly unlikely, that Neddard actually cheated on his wife. VERY unlikely.
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fraich3
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 16:13 Post subject: |
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| fraich3 wrote: | | fisk wrote: | | fraich3 wrote: |
Should probably start with saying that it at this point is purely speculation.. |
Jon being Ned's bastard is speculation too, doesn't stop everyone from harping about it, just saying. |
Simply no.
Jon is being presented as Ned's son born out of wedlock with some girl, for which there are also numerous speculations, he met. Therefore he is Neds bastard and named Snow rather than Stark. That might be a big lie, but so far it's cannon fact from both the books and the show and until any other theory or speculation is proven correct. |
OK. I'll grant you that.
But when would Ned and Ashara have met to make such a child? The book postulates that it occured one or two years prior to Robert's rebellion (somewhere around the Harrenhall tournament). We also know she commited suicide after the war. Well, if the time period is correct, then Jon Snow is far too young.
| Quote: | | we have to assume that Jon was conceived sometime during the war or very soon before it broke out. But how? At this point, Eddard is already wed to Catelyn, and we have so many references to his famous honor that it seems unlikely he would father a bastard with an old love interest. We do know that Eddard traveled to Starfall after Lyanna’s death to return Arthur Dayne’s sword Dawn to its home. But Eddard would have had to stay at Starfall for NINE MONTHS while Jon was conceived and born in order for Eddard to bring him home. We have no record of such a lengthy stay in Dorne |
My speculation is that Ned and Ashara indeed were strongly attracted to each other, that she fell in love with him but that Ned, being the straight-shooting, honorable man we know, turned her down. My speculation is also that *IF* Jon's a bastard to Rhaegar (or even Robert?) that he would do -anything- to protect their honor as well.
Let the speculation continue.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 16:15 Post subject: |
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It's Eddard, not Neddard...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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fraich3
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 16:52 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by beyond1 on Tue, 1st Jul 2025 17:21; edited 1 time in total
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fisk
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 17:33 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | Or as I'd like to refer to him, as the Nedtard  |
Could you have done better, fisk? 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 17:56 Post subject: |
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 19:57 Post subject: |
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I think most of us could do better than him. Littlefinger flat out told him not to trust anyone, especially Littlefinger. What does Ned do? Goes and tells his plans to Cersei and trusts Littlefinger.
Sig too big. -Nothing is too big for Fedor. Expect a nasty armbar.
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 20:08 Post subject: |
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Dammit 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Sun, 16th Jun 2013 22:29 Post subject: |
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30th MARCH 2014?!?!?!?
SAY IT AINT SO, say it aint so.  
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ixigia
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| Posted: Mon, 17th Jun 2013 00:06 Post subject: |
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Preffy don't tell me you haven't bought a stasis tube!
| inz wrote: | | beyond1 wrote: | | fraich3 wrote: | Amen (to the speculation discussion and also a little the "its Eddard not Neddard"  ) |
Neddard. |
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You just read my mind
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that's even better.
