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 Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 01:47 Post subject: |
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I think it's a nice PR move from MS, people will see them as the good guys now.
Still, I think they were pretty smart about it : they did listen to their customers, even though in the end, they care about $$$$, not us, but they also knew that for once people threatening them not to give them any $$$$ wasn't rubbish.
The fact that they did listen, and didn't take the risk to ignore us is still a great step forward for Microsoft. Just like they did with Vista and Windows 7, and now Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 (I guess ? Too early).
So yeah, I see MS as the good guys now 
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:07 Post subject: |
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Nothing is over or good, in sacrificing some of their beneficial online features Microsoft now caused a division within the gaming community.
One side is celebrating the victory over always on DRM while the other bemoans the convenient and promising digital model. Blame is being shifted around...articles with opposing views appear hourly.
At least they are not going to completely abandon it, and reconsider in the future:
| Kotaku wrote: |
"There’s a few things we won’t be able to deliver as a result of this change," Marc Whitten, v.p. of Xbox Live told Kotaku,
"One of the things we were very exicted about was 'wherever we go my games are always with me.'
Now, of course, your physical games won’t show up that way. The content you bought digitally will.
But you’ll have to bring your discs with you to have your games with you. Similarly, the sharing library [is something] we won’t be able to deliver at launch."
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But I still have doubts that these models are mutually incompatible.
Why not completely seperate the physical from the digital download market?
With a good value proposition the gamers that have the ability to be always online will naturally go digital.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:09 Post subject: |
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I completely agree, the ability to trade/access your games from anywhere else should STILL very much be an option on digital products. There was no reason to say "it's one thing or another", neither are mutually exclusive.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:23 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 03:22; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:28 Post subject: |
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I cant see why they couldn't have a system where you could sell or give your digital game to a friend. It would be as simple as add friends gamer tag to the Give dialog box and hit the Give button. Game gets deactivated from your account and activated in their account.
The guys who seemingly wanted microsoft digital age are now blaming all other gamers who complained for what they believe they lost instead of blaming microsoft for not coming up with a system where both parties could have the best of both worlds.
Final thing I noticed in the last few weeks of this was that everyone (probably 95 out of 100 posts) was posting how they all buy their games new and never sell - Who the fuck is gamestop buying all the games from then.
They are still failing on kinect mandatory
They are a min of a 100 euro to0 expensive maybe 160 if they are that much underpowered compared to sony
They can reverse their policies at any time
If used games are the issue ( I don't believe that ) then make digital downloads 40-50% cheaper and halve the fee they charge to developers - i'm assuming they want 30% cut on all digital stuff in line with apple the company they want to emulate. people will flock to digital gameing on consoles that way.
Currently they come of as a petulant child who has been told to apologise.
Last thing - Games in my opinion are not 60 euro anymore and haven't been for a long time - calculate in dlc and most will come in at around 80 euro - While some dlc is value for money most is not. only thing in their favour is that for some games they aren't needed ie single player
Last edited by dog-god on Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:38; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:47 Post subject: |
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^ haha that one is good
In other news, I guess the Kinect un-bundeling and price drop is now entirely off the table:
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One rigid, controversial requirement Microsoft's not changing its mind about? The always-on Kinect.
"Kinect is a core part of our architecture," Whitten said, "and how we believe the experience can be transformed. When people get a chance to see how Kinect can transform gaming even with a gamepad in my hand… they love it.
And we want to make sure there's a consistent experience that goes along with it, so that anywhere I am I can say 'Xbox TV' or 'Xbox Home' or 'Xbox go to Halo.'
And that we believe is critical to the evolution of the gaming experience in the living room."
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source: http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/19/4446356/back-to-reality-microsofts-new-xbox-one-policies-retreat-from-the-future
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 02:47 Post subject: |
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It's completely true about Steam.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:02 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | It's completely true about Steam. |
Partially true. Not completely. Yes, Steam requires you to download the game (or activate if you bought a disc) when you want to install it, but that's the end of the net requirement then. Once installed, you can go offline and play as much as you want. Sure, you can't trade games or resell them, though that's certainly about to change due to EU courts deciding that it was a consumer's legal right to resell digital property as it is with physical goods, but just because ONE platform does something doesn't mean everyone else should jump onto the bandwagon. Not to mention Valve now has a proven platform that offers clear and tangible benefits and not just restrictions wrapped in PR gobbledegook.
I'm not defending Steam's "used game policy", aside from their sales, I'm just saying; not everything MS were planning was "Steam-like" -- and considering neither Sony nor Microsoft sell their GOD/PSN titles cheaper than retail counterparts, I'm not about to start believing the bullshit of "cheaper games, like Steam!" any time soon. There's not a single shred of proof that MS ever intended to have prices of games decrease, the opposite holds more true based on the fact that they just announced 1st party titles, both retail and digital, will still sell for $60 and that is likely to rise just like everything else.
To be honest though, from what I saw most people were far more pissed off at the net requirement than of used games. Microsoft just bullying their way through the industry, that's all it looked like -- "Do what we say, play by our rules"
~edit~
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7570-Xbox-One-No-DRM-Emergency-Special
Skip the first 30 seconds and the last 5 too, the rest is pretty awesome.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:07; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:06 Post subject: |
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I don't get it, why can't I sign a game out or set it as non-shared and play it offline and have it be completely unplayable anywhere but the console it has been signed out on or set to offline on? They are just being babies with their choice. They could have reformed the DRM to keep the benefits they were looking for and give the gamers what they wanted and shut them up.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:12 Post subject: |
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When Steam started, there was no offline mode. Remember those days? And EU courts mean shit for the rest of the world. So they'll make a special mode where they allow EU members to resell. Since they are a Washington-based company, they are not obligated to have their entire model to adhere to the EU rules.
Sales would likely not happen. But know what, sales are due to publishers seeing the PC as an inferior platform. Publishers agree or disagree with these sales. And why would they have a sale on PSN or XBL when there are fucking morons willing to pay 60$ for a 2 year old game and then 40$ for a DLC season pass? So you better believe it that there would be no sales - not due to Steam vs. XBL, but because of different crowd. Prices are not regulated by Steam or PSN or XBL but by publishers, and they just see that "PC is teh suck - let's sell cheap" while "consoles - hurr thurr be durrps who are willing to pay 100$ for game+dlc so why not keep full price?".
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:20 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | When Steam started, there was no offline mode. Remember those days? |
That was a decade ago. This is today, there's no excuse for Microsoft to not offer similar functionality to what we have TODAY, rather than limitations we had ten years ago. Instead there were no incentives (oooh, family mode where you're told how many people you can let play your games) and just a buttload of pointless consumer-hating DRM and PR bullshit.
| Quote: |
And EU courts mean shit for the rest of the world. So they'll make a special mode where they allow EU members to resell. Since they are a Washington-based company, they are not obligated to have their entire model to adhere to the EU rules.
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I'm not saying everything is set in stone, I don't know any better than anyone else, I'm just guessing based on what's been happening over the last couple of years. Either way, it looks like Valve are gearing up for trading/borrowing, if the UI strings are anything to go by.
| Quote: | | Why would they have a sale on PSN or XBL when there are fucking morons willing to pay 60$ for a 2 year old game and then 40$ for a DLC season pass? So you better believe it that there would be no sales - not due to Steam vs. XBL, but because of different crowd. |
That's exactly my point, it doesn't matter whether it's because publishers think less of the PC platform, the fact remains they CAN continue to sell older games at full price in the console market (or Nintendo selling 25++ year old digital copies of games for €10) and, as you said, that isn't likely to change. So MS apologists whining about "getting rid of the preowned market will allow cheaper games" is just bullshit.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:23 Post subject: |
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Since they wont force you to log in before booting up a game, they indeed cant use their DRM anymore to allow you to have either the DRM version or the disc version of the game.
Else, people would exploit this and still sell the disc while keeping a digital version of the game...
And they don't want you to have 2 copies for the price of one.... Please prove me otherwise but without forcing an internet connection, they can't do these kind of checks...
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:28 Post subject: |
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Again, I like playing devil's advocate, but I think this somewhat proves the points of people with "let it mature a little". Steam took some years before they allowed offline. Now after a decade, they would allow trading (and what makes you think this would be consumer friendly?). So you may say "Microsoft could have learned from Valve's experience with Steam and implement similar features already in XBL" but I think the problem is they wanted to please publishers the most, and morons at EA and Activision probably said "we prefer it to be more secure".
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:29 Post subject: |
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| cyclonefr wrote: | Since they wont force you to log in before booting up a game, they indeed cant use their DRM anymore to allow you to have either the DRM version or the disc version of the game.
Else, people would exploit this and still sell the disc while keeping a digital version of the game...
And they don't want you to have 2 copies for the price of one.... Please prove me otherwise but without forcing an internet connection, they can't do these kind of checks... |
disc based games can work like disc based games, sharing is old school hand it to your friend and voila you are sharing the games. Digital downloads can be 24 hour check in for games you set to sharing mode, you can play on any console (with your login) and share with your "10 friends", any game set to offline mode can only be played on the console that owns that game and doesn't require you check in every 24 hours because its not available anywhere else but the owners console.
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tw1st
Posts: 6112
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:35 Post subject: |
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haha!
seriously ha fucking ha.
| BenQ XL2420T 24" 120Hz | Ducky Shine III 9008 White LED - Brown MX | Logitech G9x |
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:37 Post subject: |
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| readonly wrote: | | cyclonefr wrote: | Since they wont force you to log in before booting up a game, they indeed cant use their DRM anymore to allow you to have either the DRM version or the disc version of the game.
Else, people would exploit this and still sell the disc while keeping a digital version of the game...
And they don't want you to have 2 copies for the price of one.... Please prove me otherwise but without forcing an internet connection, they can't do these kind of checks... |
disc based games can work like disc based games, sharing is old school hand it to your friend and voila you are sharing the games. Digital downloads can be 24 hour check in for games you set to sharing mode, you can play on any console (with your login) and share with your "10 friends", any game set to offline mode can only be played on the console that owns that game and doesn't require you check in every 24 hours because its not available anywhere else but the owners console. |
Yeah. Physical games cannot be treated as "digital licenses" anymore.
This should be the only main caveat, not being able to comfortly install the game from disc and instead having to digitally download it everytime.
I agree, digital downloads would need to be "flagged" to require a regular online check and disc based gaming stays as it is.
With all the benefits of the digital framework (sharing etc.) people with good internet (the main target audience) could then adapt to the new model.
Would..could...should..Microsoft didnt do a 180, instead they did a 220.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:40 Post subject: |
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You know what makes me  hard lately? Everyone saying "being told what they can or can't do with their own legally purchased titles" when talking about physical disks, while "understanding" that buying digital is basically not buying a game, but "licensing" it, so that somehow makes it OK not to have the same rights. This entire ridiculous ordeal with Microsoft just shows the stupidity of the internet. "Oh no, I can't sell my 'legally purchased' disk if I wanted to, but hurray I will be able to buy digital so I don't have to leave the couch - digital downloads fuck yeah, but oh no, if I wanted to buy a disk - which I never would - I hold on my right to be able to resell it hurr durrp, but I understand why they can't do it with digital downloads because that's a license". 
Fuck you all, morons. Fight for all your rights; fight for seeing "digital downloads" exactly the same as "physical copy"; fight for having the same "can or can't do" for digital downloads as physical copies, where in both cases, you have "legally purchased". 
Just ridiculous what people accept for "digital downloads".
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:47 Post subject: |
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The purpose of tying a disc to your console is so you don't have to use it anymore. If you have to be online once in a while, what's the point ? Removing it from the case, putting it back in the tray, once in a while ? At this point, I'd just leave it in the disc tray...
So yeah, they cant really add this feature anymore, they could still force people to reactivate their game every 24h by putting the disc every 24h, but come on..... People would mock Microsoft if they would add such a feature. Either it's perma activated, or it's not, and you know they won't all you to perma activate a disc, allowing you to resell it the second your account is tied to the game.
Or, force you to activate the game every month ? Come on, Microsoft isnt that silly, they know 1 month is plenty of time for people to exploit this. Hell, they wouldnt even allow you to keep it for 1 week, and thus the original 24h check it had in the beginning.
Good night !
| Shocktrooper wrote: | | readonly wrote: | | cyclonefr wrote: | Since they wont force you to log in before booting up a game, they indeed cant use their DRM anymore to allow you to have either the DRM version or the disc version of the game.
Else, people would exploit this and still sell the disc while keeping a digital version of the game...
And they don't want you to have 2 copies for the price of one.... Please prove me otherwise but without forcing an internet connection, they can't do these kind of checks... |
disc based games can work like disc based games, sharing is old school hand it to your friend and voila you are sharing the games. Digital downloads can be 24 hour check in for games you set to sharing mode, you can play on any console (with your login) and share with your "10 friends", any game set to offline mode can only be played on the console that owns that game and doesn't require you check in every 24 hours because its not available anywhere else but the owners console. |
Yeah. Physical games cannot be treated as "digital licenses" anymore.
This should be the only main caveat, not being able to comfortly install the game from disc and instead having to digitally download it everytime.
I agree, digital downloads would need to be "flagged" to require a regular online check and disc based gaming stays as it is.
With all the benefits of the digital framework (sharing etc.) people with good internet (the main target audience) could then adapt to the new model.
Would..could...should..Microsoft didnt do a 180, instead they did a 220. |
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:50 Post subject: |
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Funny how first PC and consoles where treated as 2 different things, but now it suddenly suits them to compare something on a console to something on a PC.. Typical
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 03:50 Post subject: |
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| cyclonefr wrote: | The purpose of tying a disc to your console is so you don't have to use it anymore. If you have to be online once in a while, what's the point ? Removing it from the case, putting it back in the tray, once in a while ? At this point, I'd just leave it in the disc tray...
So yeah, they cant really add this feature anymore, they could still force people to reactivate their game every 24h by putting the disc every 24h, but come on..... People would mock Microsoft if they would add such a feature. Either it's perma activated, or it's not, and you know they won't all you to perma activate a disc, allowing you to resell it the second your account is tied to the game. |
well my idea didn't give you the ability to play without the disc. Its either digital and require 24h check for games that are part of your "shared" library and disc based games that are always required to be inserted to be played ala 360/ps3/ps4.
Edit: Basically my idea is like how 360 works. Xbox live purchases don't require a disc, the only difference would be you can share them, but if you choose to share them you also are required to be online every 24h to play that game but if you choose to not share them you can play them offline indefinitely.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 04:06 Post subject: |
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I don't understand why they don't let consumers choose the route they want to take? Why is this an either/or situation? Why cant gamers CHOOSE whether they want to buy a disc that they would need to have in the system as verification OR choose to download the game digitially which they can share between consoles through the "cloud" with family with online checks? Everyone is happy.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 04:10 Post subject: |
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| cyclonefr wrote: | The purpose of tying a disc to your console is so you don't have to use it anymore. If you have to be online once in a while, what's the point ? Removing it from the case, putting it back in the tray, once in a while ? At this point, I'd just leave it in the disc tray...
So yeah, they cant really add this feature anymore |
Yeah that feature definitely had to go, or else it would not have been possible to remove the 24 hour check. (even 24 hour is enough to quickly finish a Call of Duty though)
But that was all they needed to sacrifice, nothing else.
| LeoNatan wrote: | You know what makes me hard lately? Everyone saying "being told what they can or can't do with their own legally purchased titles" when talking about physical disks, while "understanding" that buying digital is basically not buying a game, but "licensing" it, so that somehow makes it OK not to have the same rights. This entire ridiculous ordeal with Microsoft just shows the stupidity of the internet. "Oh no, I can't sell my 'legally purchased' disk if I wanted to, but hurray I will be able to buy digital so I don't have to leave the couch - digital downloads fuck yeah, but oh no, if I wanted to buy a disk - which I never would - I hold on my right to be able to resell it hurr durrp, but I understand why they can't do it with digital downloads because that's a license".
Fuck you all, morons. Fight for all your rights; fight for seeing "digital downloads" exactly the same as "physical copy"; fight for having the same "can or can't do" for digital downloads as physical copies, where in both cases, you have "legally purchased".
Just ridiculous what people accept for "digital downloads". |
The consumer distinction between physical copies and digital downloads is on the one hand a strong psychological effect and on the other a matter of interpretation of technicalities.
Rob Fahey from gamesindustry.biz put it this way:
| Quote: |
"Technically, every piece of entertainment or software you have bought for years has been licensed, not purchased outright with no strings attached. (...)
The fact is that while lawyers and the denizens of company boardrooms have become accustomed to this idea of licensing over ownership, consumers absolutely have not - because so far, it has mostly just been legal jargon that their eyes skim past, without actually changing how they interact with someone. (...)
Consumers have very different relationships with digital products (rightly or wrongly). Applying the same restrictions to physical products - to items which consumers feel that they physically own ("but technically!") and feel that, as with any physical item, they have a right to keep, to give away, to sell or otherwise to treat as any personal possession since time immemorial has been treated - feels deeply unpleasant and grasping.
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65072
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 04:41 Post subject: |
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Good lord, I've just read the news, this ladies and gentlemen is hands down the biggest and most pathetic backpedaling ever in the gaming industry
Even if I'm not really interested since I'm happily living inside my masterrace-approved capsule, this is actually a great news for everybody. Not only direct customers have won, but even the indirect ones will benefit from the change.
Their reputation is already irreparably broken, but who cares about that. The important thing is, freedom! 
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 05:00 Post subject: |
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| Shocktrooper wrote: | | cyclonefr wrote: | The purpose of tying a disc to your console is so you don't have to use it anymore. If you have to be online once in a while, what's the point ? Removing it from the case, putting it back in the tray, once in a while ? At this point, I'd just leave it in the disc tray...
So yeah, they cant really add this feature anymore |
Yeah that feature definitely had to go, or else it would not have been possible to remove the 24 hour check. (even 24 hour is enough to quickly finish a Call of Duty though)
But that was all they needed to sacrifice, nothing else.
| LeoNatan wrote: | You know what makes me hard lately? Everyone saying "being told what they can or can't do with their own legally purchased titles" when talking about physical disks, while "understanding" that buying digital is basically not buying a game, but "licensing" it, so that somehow makes it OK not to have the same rights. This entire ridiculous ordeal with Microsoft just shows the stupidity of the internet. "Oh no, I can't sell my 'legally purchased' disk if I wanted to, but hurray I will be able to buy digital so I don't have to leave the couch - digital downloads fuck yeah, but oh no, if I wanted to buy a disk - which I never would - I hold on my right to be able to resell it hurr durrp, but I understand why they can't do it with digital downloads because that's a license".
Fuck you all, morons. Fight for all your rights; fight for seeing "digital downloads" exactly the same as "physical copy"; fight for having the same "can or can't do" for digital downloads as physical copies, where in both cases, you have "legally purchased".
Just ridiculous what people accept for "digital downloads". |
The consumer distinction between physical copies and digital downloads is on the one hand a strong psychological effect and on the other a matter of interpretation of technicalities.
Rob Fahey from gamesindustry.biz put it this way:
| Quote: |
"Technically, every piece of entertainment or software you have bought for years has been licensed, not purchased outright with no strings attached. (...)
The fact is that while lawyers and the denizens of company boardrooms have become accustomed to this idea of licensing over ownership, consumers absolutely have not - because so far, it has mostly just been legal jargon that their eyes skim past, without actually changing how they interact with someone. (...)
Consumers have very different relationships with digital products (rightly or wrongly). Applying the same restrictions to physical products - to items which consumers feel that they physically own ("but technically!") and feel that, as with any physical item, they have a right to keep, to give away, to sell or otherwise to treat as any personal possession since time immemorial has been treated - feels deeply unpleasant and grasping.
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Moron consumers, what else is there to say? |
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 08:10 Post subject: |
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i remember a talk i had with a american who just simply could not understand why microsoft is paying ue fines. he just mumble "microsoft should just stopping selling software to eu, and let's see who wins"
if i can find it again, it probably say now "valve should stop all their server/busniss in ue, what is with this nonsese that they need to bend over a ue rule and apply it everywhere, even if they are not forced." instead of seeing why this is a great thing.
this microsoft xbox was a constant source of entertainment. i hope this is not the end.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2013 08:33 Post subject: |
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