I loved the RPG elements in AP, but the overall feeling ruined the game for me. I had a love-hate relationship with the game... I really tried to like it, and you know me, I finish most games Played for about 3 hours, but still wasn't able to fully like it.
I'll wage that it was because you played the console version which not only had inferior visuals and controls () but also wasn't fixable with mods, like I did for my PC copy. The base game on both PC and console was a mess and it took patches and user tweaks to really make it shine.
If we were to choose between Risen or Gothic 3, for instance, I would easily choose Gothic 3 but G3 isn't out for consoles.
WAT
And I thought "best games" were also good games? You know - games that have passed some QA testing and even after 1030423904712938712780369136 official and unofficial patches, still remain bug shitfests with horrible animations and ridiculous voice acting.
And if I remember correctly, it was you arguing how bad Risen's combat was with Epsilon.
Personal taste and all that Leo, I fear you're forgetting that Besides, I wasn't arguing how bad the COMBAT was, but how ludicrously unfair the CREATURES were Just like above with the bwoh bwoh bwoh bullshit, it was still prevalent in Risen too. The boars/wolves could stunlock you too easily. THAT's what I was arguing about.
I am not forgetting anything, everyone is entitled to their taste, but I won't throw mine either. I bet you would also put here that one game, when someone mentions it, some one Sabin installs it. Can you guess which one I mean?
You know what I mean. And no, it's not the same, there's a certain choice factor that's attached to that role you play that affects that world/story in meaningful ways.
Quote:
But lets assume you right and go the other way, that skill points and inventory/loot makes and RPG. Then action games like Dark Messiah, Borderlands and Dead Island are RPGs. Hell even the last Wolfenstein and Rage are as well.
No, but to call it an RPG it needs to have the role-playing elements as the core element of it all. That's not the case in ME2. The primary gameplay elements are shooting and story telling.
Sure, there's a ton of dialogs and you can make decisions that affect the outcome; but if that's the only part that determines whether it's an RPG, then by all means, FC3 and Dishonored last year were RPGs as well.
What ME2 has are branching story paths. And moreover, they are not your CHOICE - it's the game that "chooses" what happens based on your personality (which is very nice and the one redeeming part about ME2); you do not actively choose to get someone killed because you forgot to upgrade some part of the ship. It's the game reacting to your answers. Limited at that as well, since the main story is predetermined and the only real variation is who dies when; and who you fuck with
For it to be an RPG, you need to be able to play a role *you* choose, which does not *have* to be tied to the story (which, in this case, it is *completely*). That means, for example, having stats in one way or another that determine what you can or can't do (and it does not mean stats like a traditional RPG per se); unlike ME2, where you're good at everything. You could argue that if you want to, you only stick to some powers/weapons - but the point is that you can freely switch at any given point. In an RPG, once you make your choice, that's it. You can't change your mind and just switch (at least not in the good ones or at substantial cost). The choices you make really change what *you* can do, not what happens story-wise.
But, allow me to *really* point it out to you, going by your own damn list and hopefully you'll see my point:
cobALT wrote:
Shooter:
Metro (1 and 2)
Infinite
Crackdown 1 <3
Halo Reach
Gears of War (2 and 3)
RPG:
Mass Effect (1 and 2)
Dark Souls
The Witcher 2 (I like the first one the most, but that was/is PC only)
Fable 2 <3
TES V: Skyrim
Fallout 3
So what the fuck makes ME2 an RPG, but not Infinite according to YOUR standards? Allow me to compare:
- Gameplay consists of shooting first and foremost: check
- Expansive story: check.
- Special skills that can be upgraded: check
- Weapons that can be upgraded: check
- No stats that limit what you can or can't do: check
So the only difference is the branching story? That's what makes an RPG according to you? FC3 and Dishonored are definitely RPGs then and heck, apparently so are most shooters of the past decade.
Again, if you like the game, fine. It's just not an RPG. There are RPG elements, like in *many* other games which you'd call shooters, but it is not an RPG. Oh and to make this clear because you may not get it otherwise: IMO.
Anyway, I don't care whether you get the above or not (the rest of the world seems to think the game is not an RPG either, but whatever). I'm not the one who called you out personally either, nor did I call you an arrogant bigot. The fact that you felt it to be necessary to go ad hominem just means you can go fuck yourself as far as I'm concerned. What I did was post MY opinion and if you took that as an attack towards you, even though I did not refer to you or anyone in particular, that's your fucking problem. If you need to go ad hominem to defend your opinion, there's something wrong with it.
Edit: holy shit, I just realised Strife was a fucking RPG as well then
TBH I could (almost) just as well have put ME2 in the shooter category, its far from the best RPG out there, I feel like I just had to put it somewhere and RPG was most fitting of course Its a good game, but not a great RPG, if you get my point.
BioWare made a good job at making it meanstream
You know what I mean. And no, it's not the same, there's a certain choice factor that's attached to that role you play that affects that world/story in meaningful ways.
Quote:
But lets assume you right and go the other way, that skill points and inventory/loot makes and RPG. Then action games like Dark Messiah, Borderlands and Dead Island are RPGs. Hell even the last Wolfenstein and Rage are as well.
No, but to call it an RPG it needs to have the role-playing elements as the core element of it all. That's not the case in ME2. The primary gameplay elements are shooting and story telling.
Sure, there's a ton of dialogs and you can make decisions that affect the outcome; but if that's the only part that determines whether it's an RPG, then by all means, FC3 and Dishonored last year were RPGs as well.
What ME2 has are branching story paths. And moreover, they are not your CHOICE - it's the game that "chooses" what happens based on your personality (which is very nice and the one redeeming part about ME2); you do not actively choose to get someone killed because you forgot to upgrade some part of the ship. It's the game reacting to your answers. Limited at that as well, since the main story is predetermined and the only real variation is who dies when; and who you fuck with
For it to be an RPG, you need to be able to play a role *you* choose, which does not *have* to be tied to the story (which, in this case, it is *completely*). That means, for example, having stats in one way or another that determine what you can or can't do (and it does not mean stats like a traditional RPG per se); unlike ME2, where you're good at everything. You could argue that if you want to, you only stick to some powers/weapons - but the point is that you can freely switch at any given point. In an RPG, once you make your choice, that's it. You can't change your mind and just switch (at least not in the good ones or at substantial cost). The choices you make really change what *you* can do, not what happens story-wise.
All right, I see your point. If you would have made these point from the start, instead of puking over my choice and the fact that I (though not the only one here) put a game in "the wrong" category, on account of different points of views, we would have had a different conversation up until now.
So by that argument, what made ME 1 and RPG? What makes half of the damn RPGs out there RPGs?!
For instance you say that in ME2 you are good at everything, and where you can't have some powers/skills, you can change that at any time and switch. But isn't this true for a lot of RPGs out there? Where you can spec differently at any time with little to no consequences or even better, you can go and reset your spec and , just like ME2, you can freely switch at any given point. You can do that in KoA for instance, you can do that in TES and both Souls games.
And maybe it's just me but the way other people played ME2 as other classes is different than the way I played as one class.
There are more differences between 2 different ME2 playthrough than an KoA play through where I could play as everything at any time and switch whenever I wanted. You could do that with DS, if you're already invested as a mage but want to up your strength to use more armour or that weapon that mows through everything, you can do it. All it takes is a little bit of grinding.
So again if other games that have those minuses can labeled as RPGs, why not ME2? What makes KoA/DS and RPG if you can respec at any time or become Jack of all trades?
I'm not the one who called you out personally either, nor did I call you an arrogant bigot.
No? Really? Look at the comments again and count the insults on either side.
Quote:
Anyway, I don't care whether you get the above or not (the rest of the world seems to think the game is not an RPG either, but whatever). I'm not the one who called you out personally either, nor did I call you an arrogant bigot. The fact that you felt it to be necessary to go ad hominem just means you can go fuck yourself as far as I'm concerned. What I did was post MY opinion and if you took that as an attack towards you, even though I did not refer to you or anyone in particular, that's your fucking problem. If you need to go ad hominem to defend your opinion, there's something wrong with it.
Such a vulgar comment form someone who pleads innocent!
For instance you say that in ME2 you are good at everything, and where you can't have some powers/skills, you can change that at any time and switch. But isn't this true for a lot of RPGs out there? Where you can spec differently at any time with little to no consequences or even better, you can go and reset your spec and , just like ME2, you can freely switch at any given point. You can do that in KoA for instance, you can do that in TES and both Souls games.
No, you can't in TES. To respec requires modding / DLC - and even when you do, if you do so at a level beyond the very start, all the gear you've collected becomes worthless and you'll need to find new gear to fit your build. Same goes for DS, you can't respec (and if you can, please let me know how, you've found something magical). And again, even if you were able to, the gear you had may very well be unfit for your new build.
Quote:
You could do that with DS, if you're already invested as a mage but want to up your strength to use more armour or that weapon that mows through everything, you can do it. All it takes is a little bit of grinding.
This is something different. First of all, it does require some work; you're honing *your* skills to be able to do X or Y. Second, you can't really just decide to go from an all-out magic build to a melee build just like that; aside from the humongous amount of grinding (starting anew would be quicker), you still need to find all the right shit to fit that new build. In ME2, if you want to use something, you just do it.
Quote:
No? Really? Look at the comments again and count the insults on either side.
Excuse me? Please, point out one single fucking insult I threw your way - or anyone else's directly for that matter. JUST ONE.
One.
1.
I know you already think I'm a prick and that I'm wrong (+ everyone else who considers ME2 a shooter, which is most journos and most of the hump). But if you're going to make that statement, grow a fucking pair and prove it. The only thing I have put in any of these posts that you could've perceived even REMOTELY as an insult was the "even in your opinion" which I meant as "do you personally consider it to be". I very rarely go ad hominem and when I do, it's not to prove a point. I'll use reasoning and facts to prove a point. And want a fact here? My original post did not address anyone in specific nor was it aimed at anyone, yet your reply to it was ad hominem straight out of the gate. Your next post was "I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A FACT" essentially - did I say so in my original post? No, didn't think so. Do I really need to add IMO in every post?
For instance you say that in ME2 you are good at everything, and where you can't have some powers/skills, you can change that at any time and switch. But isn't this true for a lot of RPGs out there? Where you can spec differently at any time with little to no consequences or even better, you can go and reset your spec and , just like ME2, you can freely switch at any given point. You can do that in KoA for instance, you can do that in TES and both Souls games.
No, you can't in TES. To respec requires modding / DLC - and even when you do, if you do so at a level beyond the very start, all the gear you've collected becomes worthless and you'll need to find new gear to fit your build. Same goes for DS, you can't respec (and if you can, please let me know how, you've found something magical). And again, even if you were able to, the gear you had may very well be unfit for your new build.
Well seeing as all you need to do is use those skills to lvl up, yeah. You can. I have done it in skyrim after I maxed out the archery, one handed and sneak skill, basically those vital to a rogue/thief class and went as a mage. After I went to a two handed class with heavy armour. It can get difficult, but it's doable.
Quote:
You could do that with DS, if you're already invested as a mage but want to up your strength to use more armour or that weapon that mows through everything, you can do it. All it takes is a little bit of grinding.
This is something different. First of all, it does require some work; you're honing *your* skills to be able to do X or Y. Second, you can't really just decide to go from an all-out magic build to a melee build just like that; aside from the humongous amount of grinding (starting anew would be quicker), you still need to find all the right shit to fit that new build. In ME2, if you want to use something, you just do it.
You're right, but a friend for instant went as a magic class, and then half way through the game (a bit before Annor Londo) he switched to a strength built. He had to grind a bit, but it didn't took him that long.
However a game like KoA, that's talked about as an RPG, is a game where you can switch classes or to some extent go jack of all trades.
And again by that argument, what made ME 1 an RPG? And what makes half of the damn RPGs out there RPGs?!
No? Really? Look at the comments again and count the insults on either side.
Excuse me? Please, point out one single fucking insult I threw your way - or anyone else's directly for that matter. JUST ONE.
One.
1.
I know you already think I'm a prick and that I'm wrong (+ everyone else who considers ME2 a shooter, which is most journos and most of the hump). But if you're going to make that statement, grow a fucking pair and prove it. The only thing I have put in any of these posts that you could've perceived even REMOTELY as an insult was the "even in your opinion" which I meant as "do you personally consider it to be". I very rarely go ad hominem and when I do, it's not to prove a point. I'll use reasoning and facts to prove a point. And want a fact here? My original post did not address anyone in specific nor was it aimed at anyone, yet your reply to it was ad hominem straight out of the gate. Your next post was "I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A FACT" essentially - did I say so in my original post? No, didn't think so. Do I really need to add IMO in every post?[/quote]
You might be right, maybe I misread you initial post and implied that your initial aggressiveness towards ME2 was targeted towards my initial post. Maybe I implied you had an arrogant/rude tone in your previews post, can't say for sure as that doesn't comes across right on the forums/public boars. Even so, I think expressed myself a bit more politely, without resorting to "you can go fuck yourself as far as I'm concerned.".
KoA is an exception in that you can relatively freely change it. What makes an RPG is character development being at the center of the game and there's virtually none of that in ME2. The powers do not shape your character in any way; they're just extra weapons you need to unlock. I see that you're never going to agree though, bringing the same shit to the table again, so I'm not going to bother any further. If you don't see that by your standard half the shooters of the past 5 years are RPGs and that DA:O or ME (just to stick with BioWERE) have a very different focus from ME2, there's nothing more I or anyone else can say.
You're definitely one of the few who thinks of ME2 as an RPG though. And I ask you again, why is ME2 an RPG according to you, but Infinite isn't? Heck, Bioshock 1 is an RPG as much as ME2 is; you'd still classify that as a shooter right? Why? Because it's first person?
cobALT wrote:
You might be right, maybe I misread you initial post and implied that your initial aggressiveness towards ME2 was targeted towards my initial post.
Maybe? I suggest you click that "previous" or "1" in the pagination and go and fucking read the damn post. I did not refer to you or anyone in particular.
Quote:
Maybe I implied you had an arrogant/rude tone in your previews post, can't say for sure as that doesn't comes across right on the forums/public boars. Even so, I think expressed myself a bit more politely, without resorting to "you can go fuck yourself as far as I'm concerned.".
"Maybe" you "implied"?
cobALT wrote:
I respect your opinion even though your comment sound like
Quote:
Blah, blah, blah .... I'm gods special little man so my opinion matters the most ... blah, blah, ... blah. I'm_pregnant_so_I'm_puking_al_ the_time.gif
That's about as clear as it gets.
You expressed yourself more politically correct, but not more politely. And my "go fuck yourself" came after that. You went ad hominem straight out of the gate instead of actually coming with some real arguments. So yes, you can go fuck yourself for that.
Iv actually spent more time on Kingdom Of Amalur than Skyrim, completed all the DLCs too. But towards the last DLC I actually didn't enjoy it anymore. Got the same linear feeling I had when I started to play it... kinda strange. Had MANY hours of fun, then suddenly I feel totally indifferent while playing it :/
I dont understand why people bash ME2. It was a totally great game. I finished it like 3 times more than me1. ME3 was trash and it totally changed what people rememer of past games.
Still. ME1 is the best space rpg after KOTOR
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it was more rpg than some other rpg games. it had chooice, dialogue and so on. Fuck the inventory. it was one thing less to worry about but everytime I've played it, IT WAS DIFFERENT.
ME1 inventory was badly done anyway. Everything felt the same
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Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
it was one thing less to worry about but everytime I've played it
And you wonder why so many PC gamers hate what's happening to gaming? ^^ That's the reason. "It was one less thing to worry about" -- ergo; streamlining. It destroyed a fantastic space RPG and turned it into a fucking shooter with "choices"
it was more rpg than some other rpg games. it had chooice, dialogue and so on.
So, being an interactive book makes it an RPG?
Once again, same damn question for you as for cobALT: why oh why is Infinite NOT an RPG then? Because it lacks choice? Well, fine, is Dishonored an RPG then? RDR? No to all of them? Then ME2 is not a fucking RPG either.
By this standard, Strife was an RPG. If you've never heard of that game, after sitting in a corner being ashamed for a while I suggest you go download it (I'm sure it can be found), play through it and then come back here and dare to say that that is not an RPG yet ME2 is.
I don't get it what is it about rpg games that is so elite
Rpg for me is about chooice, dialogue, adventure. Inventory was always a bit stupid and out of place.
Carrying 300 swords in backpack ? sword is a sword ffs. Tho if it is well done like in elder scrolls games or dungeon siege, diablo games it is most addictive factor in the game
typically i like inventory, weapons and so on. But in ME1 there was like 1% of difference between different weapons. Inventory was just for show and its management was kinda terrible... so much time in inventory screen - so rpg
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Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
Yes, keep focusing on that inventory and not all the other shit we've laid out. An inventory is not what makes it an RPG; it's part of it, certainly, but it's character development as the primary gameplay element that makes it an RPG. Shooting is the primary gameplay element. Hence, it's a shooter with RPG elements. Not the other way around.
Take FO3/NV for example. That's FPS; but at their core, everything is about developing your character. The FPS side of (aside from being SHIT) is secondary to that.
I don't get it what is it about rpg games that is so elite
Therein lies your problem. You want to take RPG titles (RPG = role-playing game, you can't say "RPG game" as that's "role-playing game game") and strip out the core factors that you don't like, while emphasising and pushing other primary elements to the forefront (ie; shooting) and still call it an RPG. Just because it has "dialogue" and "choices" doesn't make it an RPG, it's a package thing -- and stripping out huge chunks just because derpas don't like them and can't get their fucking head around them, means that it's no longer an RPG. It's a shooter with choices. Just like that fucknut DSP and his "hack datapad? WHAT datapad!? What do I do!? I don't get it!" in Mass Effect 2. That's the target audience, people so fucking thick they can't follow simple onscreen instructions, which is why ButtonAwesome® is so prevalent now.
As Paul has said, numerous times now; Strife, a fucking outstanding 1996 shooter, has;
*Dialogue
*Branching story
*Exploration
*Upgrades
So that's an RPG right? It's a shooter with choices, therefore RPG?
KillerCrocker wrote:
typically i like inventory, weapons and so on. But in ME1 there was like 1% of difference between different weapons. Inventory was just for show and its management was kinda terrible... so much time in inventory screen - so rpg
I had absolutely no trouble with the inventory whatsoever, it didn't waste any time for me and I didn't struggle with it. It expanded choice - you like choices, don't you?
I agree with everything sure.
Fuck you guys. Now I want to replay ME and Fallour 3
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Played for about 3 hours, but still wasn't able to fully like it.
) but also wasn't fixable with mods, like I did for my PC copy. The base game on both PC and console was a mess and it took patches and user tweaks to really make it shine.
You know - games that have passed some QA testing and even after 1030423904712938712780369136 official and unofficial patches, still remain bug shitfests with horrible animations and ridiculous voice acting.
Besides, I wasn't arguing how bad the COMBAT was, but how ludicrously unfair the CREATURES were 
And yes, you're absolutely right; I would put that in any "best game" list!
I bet you have a Google alert and whenever it pops you uninstall and install just to keep the statistic. 
Its a good game, but not a great RPG, if you get my point.
