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 Posted: Wed, 10th Jul 2013 20:23 Post subject: |
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| Vulgarr wrote: | | I wish they'd delete these damn invites out of my inventory lol. Shit is cluttered up. I'm sure this game will be super popular, but man, I just can't get in to it. I don't have 10,000 hours to learn all the heroes and items. I find playing LoL more fun and more accessible and I'm actually digging Infinite Crisis quite a bit (big Dominion fan though). Even Dawngate has me more interested. Maybe it's because so many of the players are already so good and know the game so well. Also, the matchmaking seems like a joke if you read the Steam forums. |
If you're completely new, the matchmaking is fairly even, you'll get 9 other people who are just as clueless as you are.
The problem with matchmaking starts later, where total noobs seem to slip into the higher brackets by the thousands for some reason.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 00:58 Post subject: |
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Yay for support players!
Abaddon is the most annoying support ever.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 02:56 Post subject: |
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The matchmaking has been quick as hell the past week, did they fix something?
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 10:29 Post subject: |
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more players since the official release maybe?
anyway, im going to give this a shot.
can you guys give me the main differences between this and LoL?
LoL is all i have played, but the negatives I assign to the game, and the reaosn i haven;t played it in months are the following:
1: The slow recall and return mechanic that kind of breaks game pace.
2: the HEAVY snowball nature of a game, you die early in a lane and its pretty much impossible without a great teammate to help gank and get you back into it. This is killer, playing a game for 40 minutes knowing you are going to be lagging behind on your team and pretty much useless. thats not even remotely fun in any way.
3: obviously the fact you have to unlock characters slowly, meant that i really couldn;t find a character i loved. Lux was my favourite but the fact that she could be killed in half a second even if she was ahead really frustrated me. Allistar was the opposite, but i still found it hard to make an impact on a game with him. With Dota 2 i can see having all characters available to me really help with this problem.
Would like to hear your input. I love Valve, and just want to know what major difference there are and how they could make this game more enjoyable, as i pretty much got bored and sick of LoL within about 2 months.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 10:53 Post subject: |
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This is my experience having played LoL at a relatively high level and Dota and Dota 2 at a relatively low level.
You can't actually recall in dota 2 without buying recall scrolls from the shop, you can however use these scrolls to teleport to the lane as well.
Dota 2 is from my experience WAY more snowbally than LoL, there is also no surrender option in Dota so you can be stuck in a losing game for quite some time.
It's hard to argue that it's better to have all the characters unlocked at the start, it does however mean that it's a lot more confusing for new players to adapt to all the heroes, where in LoL new players will generally only face players playing the other free heroes.
The gameplay in Dota 2 is much slower in general, but you can kill players a lot faster. In Dota you have to manage your resources a lot more where as in LoL you can more or less just spam your spells with most heroes.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 11:01 Post subject: |
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hmm, the snowbally thing was my biggest worry honestly.
i love the design of the two games, and enjoy playing them, but the fact you are stuck in long games 50-60% of the time (if you are an average player like me) when you are basically more of a bane than a help, can be brutal to the fun factor.
I love SF4 because it has that strategy and competitive edge online, but if you are going to lose, you are going to lose in minutes, not an hour. Was hoping mobas would be an alternative to onlinefighting games in terms of fun factor, but i think the game length alongside beginner misteps makes it a bit too much of a time investment, for what can be frustrating experience half of the time.
Last edited by grechzoo on Thu, 11th Jul 2013 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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aevis
Posts: 522
Location: Absurdia
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 11:01 Post subject: |
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To approach each of your listed negatives with regards to Dota:
1. You do not have any sort of recall mechanic (which is basically free in LoL) but you do have a teleport scroll which does cost a small amount of money and has a 1min CD. You can use that to TP to any structure your team owns. Alternatively you can get boots of travel which (for a rather high price) will allow you to TP next to any allied structure or creep (don't think you can TP next to heroes).
As far as i've read in guides and from actually playing the game, the way you use it is basically to GTFO as fast as possible in some juking situations (TP-ing only takes 2.5 seconds i believe as opposed to 5-8 seconds for recall in LoL - not sure about the values), or you use it to get back to a lane in order to protect said tower or prevent backdooring. It is recommended you always carry one with your if you've got the inventory space.
2. In terms of snowballing i've the impression that Dota is much more hardcore than LoL. Even 1-2 deaths early in a lane against an enemy carry can severly impair your development and boost his early game enormously. On the other hand you have the typical ganker heroes which have a rather easy time (assuming you are skilled enough with them) getting a huge early game advantage that does carry over into mid-late game, but that can be countered by properly warding, usually. It's especially frustrating when you actually dominate your lane and some guy from another lane that's been totally raping everyone over there swoops in and kills you before you can say OMGWTFBBQ.
3. As for the character selection i think it's a two sided issue really. On one hand you do not need to unlock shit (YAAAAAAY!!!), but on the other, for new-comers it is going to be confusing to find the right pick while taking into consideration both your and your enemy's team composition, which is why you should attempt to have someone walk your through the first couple of games and give you pointers.
Disclaimer: All of this is coming from an average player at best with most of my games played with random people so teamwork is usually at a minimum (  ), so feel free to correct me wherever i might be wrong. Also, if you do decide to give it a proper shot, just add me (Aevis on Steam) or TheZor, we'll get you in the NFOHump guild and someone'll attempt to show you some stuff and easier heroes to get into.
LE: In the time i've taken to post this EvilSlein has said everything i had to say, faster and more concise. *facepalm*
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 11:33 Post subject: |
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We had this thread a while ago discussing the differences between the games, here seven months later my opinion of the games is still the game.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Jul 2013 11:55 Post subject: |
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"It's hard to argue that it's better to have all the characters unlocked at the start"
I think you put this wrong.
It's impossible to argue that it's not better to not have to play thousands of games just to get all characters. At least in a game where they're not mostly copies of each other.
The new tutorial matches(versus other players or just bots) have a limited hero pool of 20.
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| Posted: Tue, 23rd Jul 2013 01:47 Post subject: |
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ROFLMAO!! So we were getting owned so I sold all my stuff for like 3K and bought 3K worth of couriers and spammed them to the enemy, everyone on my team thought it was hilarious but one guy who was cussing us out. We all reported him and I get a message when I logged in that a player I reported had action taken against him lmao.
Irony at it's best.
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dsergei
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zipfero
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Aug 2013 15:29 Post subject: |
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| grechzoo wrote: | thanks Aevis, great post.
ill let you know when i get bumped up the queue and into the game.
will at least give Dota a good go before i write of mobas as maybe not being my thing.
~PS : dont mistake my distaste for lol with the fact that im a dumb player, i understand the meta and was very good at surviving / farming, just not very good at killing other champions, didn't have the killer instinct as lux, so its why i switched to a tank.
Look forward to playing dota and seeing what differences it brings. maybe the slower pace will allow me to think better and get behind less  |
Just a quick tip. There is no such thing as a "tank" in dota. There is literally only 1 hero(Axe) that has the ability to draw focus fire(and his spell has a small aoe). You can have survivability and heroes that excel at being at the frontlines but there is no button you can push to make people focus you. It's all done through positioning and spell use. 
If you feel you are good at surviving, try focusing on playing the offlane/hardlane heroes. That would be heroes that go in the lane away from your jungle. So if you are radiant it's your top lane and if you are dire it's your bottom lane. If you have a jungle hero in the game(I would argue that even up to very high skill levels its better to just play 2-1-2 lanes if you dont have a jungler but some people insist to try and emulate the really good players and play "tri-lanes" so the lane configuration sometimes is 3-1-1). Heroes that go solo on in the offlane are typically heroes that either has some sort of escape, combined with the fact that they dont require a massive ton of exp and farm immediatly. Prime examples are Windrunner and Clockwerk just to name a two that on the surface are very different but can fill the same objective.
Windrunner a ranged intelligence hero can survive in the offlane in part to her windrun skill which, while active, gives 100% evasion as well as giving windrunner maximum movespeed and slowing in an area around her. In the earliest stages of the game that is usually enough to survive any attempt at killing her while staying in xp range.
Clockwerk a melee strength hero, has natural high starter hp and can with a stout shield negate a lot of incoming damage. He also has an excellent spell called Power Cogs. They lock him and any other hero right next to him inside a square of cogs for a duration. People outside the cogs when they go near them will be zapped and knocked back having lost HP and drained mana. They are extremely useful to stop any incoming attack(or ensure a kill on a hero running away. They last for 8 seconds(!!!) when level 4). You just put down cogs and then you click A+right click on a cog to remove it and go out the "back way" sort of speak. Enemies can also remove cogs but they have to attack them 3(!!) times and if they arent ranged(as in plus 350 range atlest) they will get knocked back first.
Clockwerk can be a tricky hero to be good with cause his ultimate is a skillshot and you can sort of gimp your team by blocking them or trapping them with cogs.
The tip became less quick . I love talking dota so let me know if anyone has any questions!
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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zipfero
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Aug 2013 16:17 Post subject: |
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| EvilSlein wrote: | This is my experience having played LoL at a relatively high level and Dota and Dota 2 at a relatively low level.
You can't actually recall in dota 2 without buying recall scrolls from the shop, you can however use these scrolls to teleport to the lane as well.
Dota 2 is from my experience WAY more snowbally than LoL, there is also no surrender option in Dota so you can be stuck in a losing game for quite some time.
It's hard to argue that it's better to have all the characters unlocked at the start, it does however mean that it's a lot more confusing for new players to adapt to all the heroes, where in LoL new players will generally only face players playing the other free heroes.
The gameplay in Dota 2 is much slower in general, but you can kill players a lot faster. In Dota you have to manage your resources a lot more where as in LoL you can more or less just spam your spells with most heroes. |
Couple of things. I dont necessarily disagree with you but I feel you misapprehend certain dota mechanics. Something I am probably guilty of in LoL as well seeing as I havent played that as much.
I can see why you feel dota 2 is more snowbally. Deaths in lane can matter more(and can be achieved more easily in part cause towers arent as strong in dota2 as in lol. I would argue that laning in LoL is also much more stale. You cant deny creeps and you cant dive towers. You can just stand there basically) especially at beginner levels because people dont react strongly enough when a lane is outmatched(people dont do this in high level pubs either). Basically the TP mechanic is partly something to help solve this. If one of your lanes with a high priority hero(for instance your carry or your mid hero) is getting dove on hard by several heroes an early TP can completely turn what would have been a sure death to a kill and/or a save of your hero. That makes all the ressources spent by the other team fruitless.
Some heroes have high damage nukes(Lion at level 6 for instance has an extremely high nuke). You can die very fast to this. A mix of awareness and positioning becomes critical at those stages in the game where certain heroes get critical levels and get spells that sort "make" their hero. First of all its not the END of the world if you play a support hero and an opponent spends a 160 second cooldown ultimate on you to get a kill. In some cases that can even be considered a win. Now you haev a 160 second window where that spell is out of the game and you respawn in about 20 seconds at that point anyway. Anyway I am sure there are heroes in LoL with good nuker potential or 1v1 killing ability.
The surrender option is a very contested subject in the community as well(mostly from HoN or LoL players who are used to having this. There was no surrender option on battle.net WC3. Dont know about Garena/etc). First of all I feel there are often very very long games atleast in competitive LoL and that occurs in any MOBA/ARTS, imo. Secondly, in dota, depending on team composition, there can often be ways of you getting back in to a otherwise pretty onesided game(there are certainly a lot of stomps but stomps also happen because people give up so early and just stop assisting lanes or heroes because they feel the game is lost when it in fact isnt). Lack of understanding of how heroes and hero composition works often make people use poor judgement and give up. Anyway, the surrender option is an ongoing debate for sure!
What you see as slow gameplay, I see as an added dimension of gameplay. In LoL and in HoN all heroes share pretty much the same turning speed, casting animation speed etc. In dota every hero has their own set of unique animations that can play into how a hero is used. On the surface the game can seem more slow, especially if you play heroes with very slow turning speeds(Crystal Maiden for instance is notoriously slow in anything but casting spells. Those spells are however super strong at early levels)
As someone else pointed out you probably missworded that and think its GOOD that all heroes are free and available for everyone However there is something called Limited Heroes Mode which you have to play in the tutorial and you can play as much as you want where the hero pool is much smaller and limited to heroes without super tricky mechanics where you get lost in how to play the hero and not the game.
Anyway I'm not trying to argue against your points just trying to add some perspective and dimension from another pov
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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zipfero
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| Posted: Fri, 2nd Aug 2013 16:18 Post subject: |
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zipfero
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zipfero
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Aug 2013 15:48 Post subject: |
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Quantic lost the game? As far as I watched Rsnake sucked donkey balls in teamfights.
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Aug 2013 16:06 Post subject: |
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| realee wrote: | | Quantic lost the game? As far as I watched Rsnake sucked donkey balls in teamfights. |
Neither were playing top tier dota, imo. Rsnake were excellent in game 4 though and generally better
3-1 in games. Quantics only win was a CK + Wisp game.
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Aug 2013 17:48 Post subject: |
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/WRISTS for that guy palming... lol's
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Aug 2013 18:02 Post subject: |
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| zipfero wrote: | | EvilSlein wrote: | This is my experience having played LoL at a relatively high level and Dota and Dota 2 at a relatively low level.
You can't actually recall in dota 2 without buying recall scrolls from the shop, you can however use these scrolls to teleport to the lane as well.
Dota 2 is from my experience WAY more snowbally than LoL, there is also no surrender option in Dota so you can be stuck in a losing game for quite some time.
It's hard to argue that it's better to have all the characters unlocked at the start, it does however mean that it's a lot more confusing for new players to adapt to all the heroes, where in LoL new players will generally only face players playing the other free heroes.
The gameplay in Dota 2 is much slower in general, but you can kill players a lot faster. In Dota you have to manage your resources a lot more where as in LoL you can more or less just spam your spells with most heroes. |
Couple of things. I dont necessarily disagree with you but I feel you misapprehend certain dota mechanics. Something I am probably guilty of in LoL as well seeing as I havent played that as much.
I can see why you feel dota 2 is more snowbally. Deaths in lane can matter more(and can be achieved more easily in part cause towers arent as strong in dota2 as in lol. I would argue that laning in LoL is also much more stale. You cant deny creeps and you cant dive towers. You can just stand there basically) especially at beginner levels because people dont react strongly enough when a lane is outmatched(people dont do this in high level pubs either). Basically the TP mechanic is partly something to help solve this. If one of your lanes with a high priority hero(for instance your carry or your mid hero) is getting dove on hard by several heroes an early TP can completely turn what would have been a sure death to a kill and/or a save of your hero. That makes all the ressources spent by the other team fruitless.
Some heroes have high damage nukes(Lion at level 6 for instance has an extremely high nuke). You can die very fast to this. A mix of awareness and positioning becomes critical at those stages in the game where certain heroes get critical levels and get spells that sort "make" their hero. First of all its not the END of the world if you play a support hero and an opponent spends a 160 second cooldown ultimate on you to get a kill. In some cases that can even be considered a win. Now you haev a 160 second window where that spell is out of the game and you respawn in about 20 seconds at that point anyway. Anyway I am sure there are heroes in LoL with good nuker potential or 1v1 killing ability.
The surrender option is a very contested subject in the community as well(mostly from HoN or LoL players who are used to having this. There was no surrender option on battle.net WC3. Dont know about Garena/etc). First of all I feel there are often very very long games atleast in competitive LoL and that occurs in any MOBA/ARTS, imo. Secondly, in dota, depending on team composition, there can often be ways of you getting back in to a otherwise pretty onesided game(there are certainly a lot of stomps but stomps also happen because people give up so early and just stop assisting lanes or heroes because they feel the game is lost when it in fact isnt). Lack of understanding of how heroes and hero composition works often make people use poor judgement and give up. Anyway, the surrender option is an ongoing debate for sure!
What you see as slow gameplay, I see as an added dimension of gameplay. In LoL and in HoN all heroes share pretty much the same turning speed, casting animation speed etc. In dota every hero has their own set of unique animations that can play into how a hero is used. On the surface the game can seem more slow, especially if you play heroes with very slow turning speeds(Crystal Maiden for instance is notoriously slow in anything but casting spells. Those spells are however super strong at early levels)
As someone else pointed out you probably missworded that and think its GOOD that all heroes are free and available for everyone However there is something called Limited Heroes Mode which you have to play in the tutorial and you can play as much as you want where the hero pool is much smaller and limited to heroes without super tricky mechanics where you get lost in how to play the hero and not the game.
Anyway I'm not trying to argue against your points just trying to add some perspective and dimension from another pov |
One thing for sure is that Dota is harder to get into. And as usual that has its pros and cons.
However I do think there should be a surrender option. Let's be honest, most people aren't playing on high level, things get snowball a lot easier in the average to lower level matches. It is just a waste of time trying to comeback in impossible situations. I think a surrender is a fair way to end a match. Sometimes the matchmaking just teams you up with terrible players and the other team is completely stacked. It goes downhill extremely fast and there is nothing you can do. It is physically and logically impossible to comeback in those situations.
For example. I had games where none of my team but me use wards, none knows how to gank, control runes, creep pull, etc. The other way was warding, anti warding, blocking, using smoke, and have a much stronger line up. It is just pointless to even try in those games. I'm not even that good, so lets say I was one of the terrible ones, and our carry was amazing. Doesn't matter, Dota is a team game. He couldn't have make a comeback from that situation.
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zipfero
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 15:08 Post subject: |
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Everyone experiences those games at any level. I have played games with pros where we have played against people without courier and wards. Sometimes people dont ward cause they are assholes. I understand your POV but Im in a wait and see approach. Too many times have I come back from a massive deficit(Ive won games where our throne was at 200hp) and too many times have I been stomped completely by a 5 stack only to completely rape that 5 stack in the following game.
So how do you make a good surrender option? When you could surrender after 20 minutes in HoN every game became about just trying to get to that 20 minutes. Everybody surrendered if they felt it wasnt a close game but even pro's have a hard time knowing exactly how much they are behind.
I just find it frustrating when people pick a lategame lineup with decent turtle and then just shout "GG NOOBS ON MY TEAM" when they arent leading after the laning stage
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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zipfero
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 16:30 Post subject: |
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| zipfero wrote: | Everyone experiences those games at any level. I have played games with pros where we have played against people without courier and wards. Sometimes people dont ward cause they are assholes. I understand your POV but Im in a wait and see approach. Too many times have I come back from a massive deficit(Ive won games where our throne was at 200hp) and too many times have I been stomped completely by a 5 stack only to completely rape that 5 stack in the following game.
So how do you make a good surrender option? When you could surrender after 20 minutes in HoN every game became about just trying to get to that 20 minutes. Everybody surrendered if they felt it wasnt a close game but even pro's have a hard time knowing exactly how much they are behind.
I just find it frustrating when people pick a lategame lineup with decent turtle and then just shout "GG NOOBS ON MY TEAM" when they arent leading after the laning stage |
The decision is made by the losing team. It's a voting system. But really, the problem is time. Neither the whinny nor the optimistic know whether they will comeback or not. If in doubt, might as well put it up for vote.
In the end, should the game ends with a surrender, and you would have won had you and the team stayed; you got a lose on your record and miss out on a win that you could never have known would happened.
However if there were no surrender option, and you couldn't made the come back, then you've wasted everyone's time trying to fight the inevitable. It might sound glorious to say "never give up, never surrender", but when it is only a matter of winning or losing a match in a video game, it hardly is. In this case, I would say time is more important. I would gladly take a lose if it means I get to have an extra 10-30mins doing anything else.
If the pros can't tell when the game is truly over, then at the same time, they couldn't tell if they will able to get their comeback or not. They wouldn't give up for obvious reasons, but they don't know for sure. No one could. Again, if you can't formulate the right course of action due to uncertainty then voting is the best logical option to keep the peace.
Also 20mins is too early to call anyway. IE. a carry rushing radiance would should get it around 20 mins. So 30mins sounds better. Half an hour of suffering is good enough. By then carries should have had their essential farm already. Also let's the forget Valve has the power to gather data to determine the best time in each games to unlock surrender voting. Stuff like gold per minute, kills, towers, etc. But that is too extreme in my opinion. A simple timer is more than enough.
Also recently, there are more and more leavers than before. Now I don't know if that is because of the increase in player numbers, or because people are seeing the insufficiency of the punishment. Regardless, I feel people will be less likely to leave games when losing if they know they could leave legally by 30mins mark (assuming the vote pass of course), versus the notion of facing the inevitable stomping for an uncertain amount of time.
Here's the thing, the basic requirement of a comeback is the players. If you have a team of positive thinking players, then the voting wouldn't have gone through in the first place. Then you still have your shot at a comeback. But if the vote went through, then it means at most only 2 out of 5 players have the desire to try and make a comeback. With only 2 out of 5, you will still very unlikely win against 5 better leveled and farmed players.
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zipfero
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