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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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 Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 06:47 Post subject: Unions |
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What's your take on em? Do you think they work to create a better and more fair environment for the worker? Are they essential today as they were decades ago?? Their relationship to the capitalistic free market economy (companies compete with eachother for better workers and wages go up as a result anyway)
Even more interestingly I wanna hear from European members from Greece or Italy and Spain. Would you agree that they are essential to a healthy economy? Or are they the exact opposite, creating unrealistic and unsustainable wages.
I will add my two cents soon
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 07:25 Post subject: |
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My brother in law hates his union. They treat him like shit. He has benefits but they are all WHY DO YOU NEED THIS? They're very strict as to what constitutes an inability to work.
The union I'm trying to get to... for the store i'm working at currently seems to be doing a splendid job. All the kids are ecstatic about it. So I guess it's good...
as for the big picture. I don't know.  I only know about unions from what I hear from others. haven't really gotten a first hand look into one.
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 07:28 Post subject: |
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Interesting you brought this up. My company was bought out by another bigger company that has some Union employees. They are trying to get us to join the union too. So far I think it bad because I won't have any seniority as a new union member despite how long I've been with the company. I pay more in union dues but we all get paid the same amount regardless of union status...I'm leaning toward no......
I'll be watching this thread.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14349
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 09:26 Post subject: Re: Unions |
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| MAD_MAX333 wrote: |
Would you agree that they are essential to a healthy economy? Or are they the exact opposite, creating unrealistic and unsustainable wages.
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Your question implies the primacy of the economy over the social health of a society. From that you should begin to explain the role of your healthy economy in a society. The economy is not simply a good for itself, it must have a positive effect on the society as a whole.
Secondly and most importantly, Unions do not only stand for minimum wages. Generally, unions also stand for working conditions, which includes health, insurance, work time etc.
For example. My teachers union closely works with the ministry of education to make sure reforms in the educational system dont go too wrong. Our ministry of education is reforming according to demands of the OECD instead of thinking about the special cultural, and linguistical circumstances our country has (We have, since some time ago lost sovereignity to the OECD). Experienced teachers in the unions fight not only for their professional future but for the well-beeing of the whole educational system. Without union, how would they be able to communicate to the state?
Our country has a traditional "tripartite", where the government, the union leaders and the representatives of the employers sit together and work their differences out. It seems to have worked quite well since now.
All in all, the role of the unions is a far more complex one than simply producing higher wages for workers. I suppose in some industries, they may work against what is economically viable and can impede the economical growth. I find myself often critcizing unions for stupid demands.
But if I have to generalize on unions. From a social point of view, they are essential to the health of a society.
It is obvious that after the fall of the soviet union, the west has its difficulties maintaining its living standarts and social achievements.(Te reasons should be discussed in another thread) The few industries that really need to compete for workers may be better of without unions. For all the others, unions are necessary to make sure people are treated like people and not like workforce kettle.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 13:06 Post subject: |
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It started off as a good thing so it would provide the workers some sort of security, now it's turned thanks to human nature, well greed, and they are taking advantage of it, in Croatia it's all about "creating unrealistic and unsustainable wages." they don't give a shit if the whole system goes down they won't renounce their benefits or accept lower wages even if THERE IS NO FREAKING MONEY to sustain that, they just don't get it or don't care.
It's like "well we don't give the shit if the whole company goes down because our wages our too high&unrealistic and we all end up on the street , we'd rather accept 0kn and be homeless and jobless than take a pay cut". Real smart.
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 15:35 Post subject: |
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I understand their roles are complex. First off I think in a developing world it could be beneficial, but a first world country? We have tight government control here that for example mandates minimum wage laws, health and safety regulations, Labour relations committees. The government has all the tools in these countries for a non unionized member to get acceptable work environments.
Regardless though I think unions are the devil. First off they protect the dumbest and most useless humans amongst out work forces. It's insane what people can do and say and still have a job. This takes away from people's responsibility and putting in their dues at work. Second of all as mentioned previously, it's all coming down to greed now. Now unions are by extension a representative of their work force but still they should have a responsibility to look at the economy and the company's ability to sustain itself before asking for higher and higher numbers. They do not give a crap if the city is bankrupt or the levels of pay are unsustainable or what else. They just want more and more. The government unions are the absolute worst! They assume the government has unlimited money and resources and they just wanna milk em for more. "oh firefighters got a 6 percent raise? We as ambulance workers need 12 then!" and it just cycles up and up.
I can't see Toronto going this way for long. We have crazy debt and the unions won't budge on their stance for more and more money. Public sector is bloated (union won't let anyone be fired or any jobs lost) and pay high. Pensions and health care are also raping the system.
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 15:46 Post subject: |
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| MAD_MAX333 wrote: | I understand their roles are complex. First off I think in a developing world it could be beneficial, but a first world country? We have tight government control here that for example mandates minimum wage laws, health and safety regulations, Labour relations committees. The government has all the tools in these countries for a non unionized member to get acceptable work environments.
Regardless though I think unions are the devil. First off they protect the dumbest and most useless humans amongst out work forces. It's insane what people can do and say and still have a job. This takes away from people's responsibility and putting in their dues at work. Second of all as mentioned previously, it's all coming down to greed now. Now unions are by extension a representative of their work force but still they should have a responsibility to look at the economy and the company's ability to sustain itself before asking for higher and higher numbers. They do not give a crap if the city is bankrupt or the levels of pay are unsustainable or what else. They just want more and more. The government unions are the absolute worst! They assume the government has unlimited money and resources and they just wanna milk em for more. "oh firefighters got a 6 percent raise? We as ambulance workers need 12 then!" and it just cycles up and up.
I can't see Toronto going this way for long. We have crazy debt and the unions won't budge on their stance for more and more money. Public sector is bloated (union won't let anyone be fired or any jobs lost) and pay high. Pensions and health care are also raping the system. |
The only reason you have all of those things are cause of the unions. Dont be ignorant of history. Unions have been the only thing standing between exploitation of the workforce and the health of the worker since forever.
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 15:57 Post subject: |
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Yes hence why I said in developing countries they can be beneficial... Then u develop into a country where worker safety, minimum wages and such are basic government policies and now you no longer need unions for such matters.
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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Sin317
Banned
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Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 16:11 Post subject: |
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 16:24 Post subject: |
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I don't doubt they have some positive qualities For sure however u can't just look at the small picture of them helping an employee or two. I personally have paid thousands in dues and got shafted the 2 times I needed help, but I don't use that as a bench mark of whether they are helpful as a whole or not. I mostly look at the big picture of companies paying higher and higher wages then needing to downsize or ship works overseas or close down. Or governments running out of money due to insane union obligations. It seems the governments just kick the ball further down field to appease the unions and get their votes to stay in office.
To me if unions weren't involved in some places then sure maybe a few workers would have been let go at times unfairly but I can think of thousands of jobs that wouldn't have been lost cause companies got tired of paying crazy high salaries. Ford Motor company, do you know how much an assembly line person makes? Yes ones who don't even need highschool education just to sit there and tighten a bolt on a door for 10 hours a day.... 40 dollars an hour! 40! How do u justify that the line worker makes close to a firefighter or a similar profession? It's nuts.
Let me give u an example which I can relate to based on how unions have helped and hurt my line of work. Toronto police has one of the best pay rates of any police force in North America (compared to standard of living of the area) at around 90k a year. Our benefits are top notch and pension is probably best anywhere. Those are great right? K well let's remember in any major city police budget is one of the biggest expenses of the city a d in Toronto we also take a massive slice of a heavily indebted city budget. So now the city is even more cash strapped! Sooooo the city tells the police "k since u all just got a big raise thanks to a contract ur union got u, we can't afford to let u hire anymore officers this year" that EXACT scenario has happened here for more than 4 years! We were severely short staffed before but now with baby boomers retiring in droves and no money for new hires the situation is stupid now. So now people in need of police have to wait longer and longer for service due to lack of cars on the road and we have to do without backup or wait lot longer for it. Equipment falling apart, no helicopter for the biggest city in canada etc etc... Yah they made lives of workers better with pay but as a whole they undermine our security and security of the public, not to mention the financial burden on the city which our kids need to deal with in 15 to 20 years.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Aug 2013 21:06 Post subject: |
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Unions are a marxist scam, mostly used to put pressure on competing companies. The working man's interests certainly aren't their priority.
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Saner
Posts: 6877
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Mon, 5th Aug 2013 06:15 Post subject: |
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Like most things in life they have good and bad, but take them away and you are left with people who will be worse.
In my limited experience with them, I would say the good outweighs the bad.
But thats just in this country (obviously) it is no doubt different in others.
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
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