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 Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 07:43 Post subject: |
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The "netcode" feels improved after the latest patch, I played a few hours of 64 player conquest yesterday and didnt see any one frame deaths.
Actually I noticed I got hit and moved to safety a few times, this haven't happened in bf4 much before.
Need to test more though.
Edit: this was with 0 network smoothing and ping 20
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 10:29 Post subject: |
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| t00ner wrote: | I wouldn't say it that much different. HLDS also has fps_max value which is responsible for server (game world) fps, tickrate is just amount of IO packet per second. You could have more than 1 ticks per game world frame (not 100% sure). I remember we used to play on high fps/tickrate servers on lan tournaments with some media player voodoo on the server  |
fps_max has no effect in GoldSrc DS. sys_ticrate is the only value that controls FPS
Don't take my word for it though, take it from Valve themselves instead: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5386-HMJI-5162
| Quote: | I think what people are mostly referring to in BF4 tick-rate problem is mostly packets per second being 10 - if you increase that, game world fps must go up accordingly otherwise there would be no point.
As in the video escalibur posted - you only have max 15 kb/s in 64 players. I remember we used to play on such values in CS1.6 well over a decade ago with 0.5 or 1Mb connections back then (even up to 25kb/s) , and both the server and clients could handle it well.
I still think 10 Hz on PC servers is mostly due to greed, nothing else. Less CPU/network load per server instance = more instances per machine = more $$$ for them greedy EA fucks. |
Ah but rate is again different from update rate. Rate is an actual speed, update rate is a frequency. That 15 KB/s is not really much of an indication of how many updates are sent, because if every packet is only 512 bytes, that's 30 packets per second, but if they're 1 KB, that's just 15. Or to flip it around, assuming 15 KB/s for GoldSrc (doubtful, you got 7.5 in at most, maybe 5 out if it was busy so that's 12.5 together  ) at an update rate of 100, you're looking at packets 10 times the size for BF4.
And again, the number of packets per second is not necessarily the issue. Q3 did just fine with 20 packets and that game was a lot faster. The problems BF4 has lie partly in that, but more updates wouldn't solve the real issues, which are the interpolation algorithms the servers uses to "approve" hits clients send. They simply do not take client latency into account enough.
Last but not least, like I said, people do not use "tick rate" to refer to the same things. Some mean simulation rate (server FPS), some mean packets per second (update rate). The term is just bullshit, used by people who don't have a bloody clue what they're talking about because they remember "tick rate" as *the* important thing in CS Source. |
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 12:26 Post subject: |
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You're right, I didn't know it has no effect but it was still in server configs, don't know really why.
| Quote: | | Ah but rate is again different from update rate. Rate is an actual speed, update rate is a frequency. That 15 KB/s is not really much of an indication of how many updates are sent, because if every packet is only 512 bytes, that's 30 packets per second, but if they're 1 KB, that's just 15. Or to flip it around, assuming 15 KB/s for GoldSrc (doubtful, you got 7.5 in at most, maybe 5 out if it was busy so that's 12.5 together Razz) at an update rate of 100, you're looking at packets 10 times the size for BF4. |
Yes, I understand the difference between updaterate and rate. I was simply discussing how it is in bf4. Back in CS1.6 everyone used to play with updaterate 101, cmdrate 101 and rate 25000 (I don't know if this one was a cap for just downstream at 25k or total bandwidth cap) settings which resulted in upto 10kb/s on esl 5vs5 matches and around 20kb/s on pub matches (not all servers allowed such high updaterate, limited by svar). It seems high to have 15kb/s in bf4 with only 10 packetrate compared to 20 with less players with 101 packetrate over 10 years ago, but as I said in my previous post, I had 0.5mb connection vs 100mb now
| Quote: | | And again, the number of packets per second is not necessarily the issue. Q3 did just fine with 20 packets and that game was a lot faster. The problems BF4 has lie partly in that, but more updates wouldn't solve the real issues, which are the interpolation algorithms the servers uses to "approve" hits clients send. They simply do not take client latency into account enough. |
I disagree. Q3 worked with 20/30 because most people played on modems and this was settings for lowest common denominator, if you had broadband then you switched to 100.
I think the compensation issue works bad due to 1 major flaw (my theory). Ever noticed why players with high pings always have advantage while appearing on screen? Here's why - when high ping (and high ping variance, which is important too) come to the server, they are then lag compensated with added amplitude of ping variance - so in the game world, the players model is much more behind then it appears on the players screen BUT... the shots of such player are calculated on client side and sent as confirmed hits, without any backwards lag compensation.
So in short, movements needs to be lag compensated, shots don't. That's why client side hit detection has no place in fps games.
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 13:12 Post subject: |
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A game like BF4 doesn't need a high tick rate. If you had a game with really high paced combat it could help, not that much in a game like this. FYI, BF3 has the same tick rate.
PC: Yes. Console: No.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 14:54 Post subject: |
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| t00ner wrote: | | I disagree. Q3 worked with 20/30 because most people played on modems and this was settings for lowest common denominator, if you had broadband then you switched to 100. |
No, you didn't
Not a single league or competition out there went above 30 (CPL, ESL, WCG, ESWC all set it at 30) and QL now still only has it at 40. At higher rates, movement *drastically* changes, you can jump further. Defrag sets sv_fps to 125 for that purpose, because you can make a lot more jumps that way.
I suggest you google cl_maxpackets in combination with com_maxfps too, as that doesn't work the way you think it does either 
As for your theory: sort of. From what I can tell, it's more a case of the server compensating at the wrong times. The engine is not 100% client side; the shit clients send is validated on the server, but it's too lenient there. I.e. at the moment where it actually (dis)approves a hit a client sends, it doesn't take into account the fact that someone shooting *at* a lagger has been receiving false information. Instead it looks at the lagger's data and accepts that, because that's "behind". It's one-way compensation, where it should be two-way. |
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 15:27 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Not a single league or competition out there went above 30 (CPL, ESL, WCG, ESWC all set it at 30) and QL now still only has it at 40. At higher rates, movement *drastically* changes, you can jump further. Defrag sets sv_fps to 125 for that purpose, because you can make a lot more jumps that way.
I suggest you google cl_maxpackets in combination with com_maxfps too, as that doesn't work the way you think it does either |
I tried googling it just now and got some different results.
For example here - http://www.the-yarn.net/config/config.php
I checked the configs of Av3k, Cooller and cypher from here - http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season4/hannover/news/117216/ and all of them set their packets to the same value as their fps cap, just like we did in CS. Am I missing something?
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Sin317
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 15:32 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | t00ner wrote: | | I disagree. Q3 worked with 20/30 because most people played on modems and this was settings for lowest common denominator, if you had broadband then you switched to 100. |
No, you didn't
Not a single league or competition out there went above 30 (CPL, ESL, WCG, ESWC all set it at 30) and QL now still only has it at 40. At higher rates, movement *drastically* changes, you can jump further. Defrag sets sv_fps to 125 for that purpose, because you can make a lot more jumps that way.
I suggest you google cl_maxpackets in combination with com_maxfps too, as that doesn't work the way you think it does either
As for your theory: sort of. From what I can tell, it's more a case of the server compensating at the wrong times. The engine is not 100% client side; the shit clients send is validated on the server, but it's too lenient there. I.e. at the moment where it actually (dis)approves a hit a client sends, it doesn't take into account the fact that someone shooting *at* a lagger has been receiving false information. Instead it looks at the lagger's data and accepts that, because that's "behind". It's one-way compensation, where it should be two-way. |
yeah i realized that whenever i lag, because someone else is using the wifi to torrent the shit out of it lol. I warp all over the place, yet am able to kill enemies a lot easier and i myself am like invincible lol.
i think DICE decided to cater towards the people with shitty connections, instead of those with a good one. Or at least find a middle ground.
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Werelds
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 17:05 Post subject: |
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| t00ner wrote: | | Quote: | Not a single league or competition out there went above 30 (CPL, ESL, WCG, ESWC all set it at 30) and QL now still only has it at 40. At higher rates, movement *drastically* changes, you can jump further. Defrag sets sv_fps to 125 for that purpose, because you can make a lot more jumps that way.
I suggest you google cl_maxpackets in combination with com_maxfps too, as that doesn't work the way you think it does either |
I tried googling it just now and got some different results.
For example here - http://www.the-yarn.net/config/config.php
I checked the configs of Av3k, Cooller and cypher from here - http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season4/hannover/news/117216/ and all of them set their packets to the same value as their fps cap, just like we did in CS. Am I missing something? |
No no, at FPS cap it's fine. It's when people go off by even 1 - which a lot of people do, as does that config generator you linked. A lot of people put cl_maxpackets at 100, com_maxfps at 120 or 125. Little do they know that the game then only does cl_maxpackets 62-63 (or 60 for 120 FPS) in reality
It works much like VSync, which most people don't realise. Just like cl_updaterate 101 in CS was complete bullshit; that 1 extra was always discarded on a good connection (0% loss). Difference is that GoldSrc is capable of compensating for packet loss with a higher updaterate, unlike T3; but 101 then won't cut it, as that only allows 1% packet loss. |
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tonizito
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 19:32 Post subject: |
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Unlucked the new AR160... not quite sure how.
Involved some grenade kills, healing and revives I guess 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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tonizito
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 19:50 Post subject: |
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Nice, thanks
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Mar 2014 20:20 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Mar 2014 04:43 Post subject: |
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This latest patch really broke things (or so it seems). Now when I get killed the killcam goes to a random player (even people on my own team). And either it shows random weapons I got killed with or now you can target ground targets with the stinger and lock onto them.
It's nothing gamebreaking but it's annoying.
Thank you, that is all. 
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Mar 2014 18:50 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Mar 2014 22:11 Post subject: |
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I got a huge problem since a few days, i keep getting kicked after 15-30 minutes with following PB related error: RESTRICTION: Disallowed Program/Driver [130827]
How the fuck can i solve this? Anyone experienced this yet?
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Mar 2014 23:17 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Mar 2014 23:40 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | Update PB. |
ah thx, i never manually updated PB ever, i thought the game takes care of that. I'll try it.
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harry_theone
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Mar 2014 23:50 Post subject: |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Sun, 9th Mar 2014 00:31 Post subject: |
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| Ishkur123 wrote: | | Werelds wrote: | | Update PB. |
ah thx, i never manually updated PB ever, i thought the game takes care of that. I'll try it. |
PB should be updating itself; it's a standalone service.
Except that it has always done this shit, it's always been terrible
Most strange PB related messages can be fixed with a manual update. |
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 9th Mar 2014 16:30 Post subject: |
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I'm liking the new AR160, too bad that DICE fucked up with the battlelog integration so no battlepacks -> no PK-A 3.4x unlock 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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tonizito
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Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Sun, 9th Mar 2014 16:46 Post subject: |
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| MinderMast wrote: | | tonizito wrote: | | I'm liking the new AR160, too bad that DICE fucked up with the battlelog integration so no battlepacks -> no PK-A 3.4x unlock |
The fuck up is actually the same as with previous DLCs - you are able to unlock the weapon before you are supposed to, and that's why Battlelog doesn't quite support it yet. It should be fine once Naval Strike is actually out. |
I was guessing that it would be something like that. So I'll have to wait until the 18th
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 9th Mar 2014 17:06 Post subject: |
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Nice!
Hopefully they'll also address the bugs the latest patch introduced... without breaking much of the stuff that already is in place
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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