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 Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 14:31 Post subject: |
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The first thing on the agenda for the new consoles: Bog down the progress of gaming for 5 more years. They weren't kidding. Next-gen is here. A cycle of hardware not up to snuff for today's expectations, it feels like yesterday. Last-gen, current-gen: next-gen is always on the horizon.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 14:52 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: | | 60fps is a bad business decision on consoles so I have no idea why anyone would expect it. |
Every time it is announced that a game will run at 30FPS it's a big talking point. Every time it is announced that a game will run less than 1080p it is a big talking point. People expected more from #nextgen consoles and got much less. |
You know what is a bigger talking point that effects more then just people who are more technical on the Internet?
Bad graphics.
If you began forcing 60fps now for example the PS4 watch dogs game would probably look like the PS3 version.
Also I will add that 30fps is less noticeable at a distance, I remember NFS Rivals was locked at 30fps and I could barely stand to play it on my computer screen, I switched it to my TV and controller and it didn't bother me so much.
| EternalBlueScreen wrote: | | The first thing on the agenda for the new consoles: Bog down the progress of gaming for 5 more years. They weren't kidding. Next-gen is here. A cycle of hardware not up to snuff for today's expectations, it feels like yesterday. Last-gen, current-gen: next-gen is always on the horizon. |
Think of it this way.
If the PS4 had a 8Ghz processor, 16GB ram and a 2Ghz GPU they would still aim for 30fps...
The only reason they would go higher then 30fps is if their current engines did not offer anything to make use of that hardware which makes raising it to 60fps obvious.
My point is 30fps is here to stay, video games and their engines move at the pace they decide, if a console with an 8Ghz CPU was released... you can bet they would start thinking of ways to use that power at 30fps.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 15:02 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 02:03; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 15:04 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: | | If you began forcing 60fps now for example the PS4 watch dogs game would probably look like the PS3 version. |
Like when they must have tried getting the XBone version of Ground Zeroes at 1080p/60FPS and it was too weak so it ended up as a 720p game. Which is interesting. Because if 60FPS was a bad business decision, then surely they would have kept it at 1080p/30. |
I probably should have clarified.
When I talk about game developers I'm talking about EA etc...
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 16:10 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | Think of it this way.
If the PS4 had a 8Ghz processor, 16GB ram and a 2Ghz GPU they would still aim for 30fps...
The only reason they would go higher then 30fps is if their current engines did not offer anything to make use of that hardware which makes raising it to 60fps obvious.
My point is 30fps is here to stay, video games and their engines move at the pace they decide, if a console with an 8Ghz CPU was released... you can bet they would start thinking of ways to use that power at 30fps. |
Can't really agree with that point.
I can understand the idea that aiming for 1080p60 is demanding enough that the shift from last-gen to "next-gen" won't be dramatic enough in terms of other aspects of visual fidelity. However, if they have beefier hardware, that gives them the option to push further on all things, and put that 60fps mark "on the box", along with fancy bullshots.
This has me wondering just how much marketing the game before the launch has to do with those limitations. I mean, you can't really show the difference between 30fps and 60fps in a trailer or even a gameplay movie (a 30fps movie will look pretty similar to actual 60fps gameplay) and just as with the last-gen - you can't really see how bad lower resolution is from a screenshot.
You can, however, spot the inferior level of detail from these things. Having the ability to show prettier screenshots and movies for marketing makes it easier to sell the game, even if in the end it will look nothing like that upscaled on your 40"+ HDTV or feel responsive and smooth at a lower framerate.
Point being that it's not even about how it will look or feel for the player, but about how it will appear to be before they get their hands on it.
Doesn't really help that majority of the consumers don't know any better (and yet keep religiously defending their precious cinematic fps or the pixelated mess that is upscaled 720p) or think that it's okay.
Naughty Dog seemed to be a supporter of 60fps at least, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with for the Uncharted sequel. Hopefully it won't be 720p60 
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 16:16 Post subject: |
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| MinderMast wrote: | Can't really agree with that point.
I can understand the idea that aiming for 1080p60 is demanding enough that the shift from last-gen to "next-gen" won't be dramatic enough in terms of other aspects of visual fidelity. However, if they have beefier hardware, that gives them the option to push further on all things, and put that 60fps mark "on the box", along with fancy bullshots. |
You are making the assumption that there is some kind of limitation on how complex a game is.
I'll give you an example
2013: PS4 released with beefier hardware as you claim, game does what you claim, 60fps Battlefield 4
2015: Battlefield 5 is released, because there is no PS5, the game runs at 30FPS.
Surely this explains one of many issues with trying to have the average console game run at 60fps?
It never going to happen.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 16:42 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | | MinderMast wrote: | Can't really agree with that point.
I can understand the idea that aiming for 1080p60 is demanding enough that the shift from last-gen to "next-gen" won't be dramatic enough in terms of other aspects of visual fidelity. However, if they have beefier hardware, that gives them the option to push further on all things, and put that 60fps mark "on the box", along with fancy bullshots. |
You are making the assumption that there is some kind of limitation on how complex a game is.
I'll give you an example
2013: PS4 released with beefier hardware as you claim, game does what you claim, 60fps Battlefield 4
2015: Battlefield 5 is released, because there is no PS5, the game runs at 30FPS.
Surely this explains one of many issues with trying to have the average console game run at 60fps?
It never going to happen. |
Not really the same thing. With hardware that is ahead of what's currently available on the market, for example, 30fps or anything lower than 1080p simply becomes laughable. It will simply lag behind the technology too much.
And either way, to counter your example, throughout the current console cycle we had BC, BC2, BF3 and BF4 - all at 30fps, while somewhat raising the bar. Graphically speaking, perhaps it would be better to talk about Uncharted -> UC2 -> UC3 -> Last of Us... pushing ahead while maintaining (admittedly with mixed success later) that 30fps bar.
At one point the bar will be 60fps, and you will stick to it. They set the bar for 60fps for BF4 because they had the option to do it now. They talk like that is where they intend to keep it (just as Naughty Dog so far talked about how they will be targeting 60fps primarily, and figure things out from there) - whether or not this will hold all the way to the end neither of us can really tell, but history shows so far that games tend to look better towards the end, even without other trade offs.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 17:12 Post subject: |
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30FPS is too high, it should be 23.976, for that cinematic feel.
"I think Call of Duty resonates because it's believable and relatable," Sledgehammer Games cofounder Michael Condrey says.
Believable and relatable...Yep, sounds like Call of Duty
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 17:13 Post subject: |
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| MinderMast wrote: | Not really the same thing. With hardware that is ahead of what's currently available on the market, for example, 30fps or anything lower than 1080p simply becomes laughable. It will simply lag behind the technology too much.
And either way, to counter your example, throughout the current console cycle we had BC, BC2, BF3 and BF4 - all at 30fps, while somewhat raising the bar. Graphically speaking, perhaps it would be better to talk about Uncharted -> UC2 -> UC3 -> Last of Us... pushing ahead while maintaining (admittedly with mixed success later) that 30fps bar.
At one point the bar will be 60fps, and you will stick to it. They set the bar for 60fps for BF4 because they had the option to do it now. They talk like that is where they intend to keep it (just as Naughty Dog so far talked about how they will be targeting 60fps primarily, and figure things out from there) - whether or not this will hold all the way to the end neither of us can really tell, but history shows so far that games tend to look better towards the end, even without other trade offs. |
I already explained this though.
If hardware becomes ahead of the market (unlikely to ever happen), we will have a short period of extra processing power available where 60fps will work fine and then 6-12 months later a company will want to release a new game with much much better graphics at 30fps. Do you really think most game companies are going to decide that better graphics doesn't suit them and they just want 60fps? No.
I really don't know how I can make it any more clear but here goes.
The PS4 had games running at 30fps on launch, if a console is meant to be around for 5-10 years and it can't even have 60fps games on launch why do you think your extra beefy console will do anything at all? Your extra beefy console will cost $1000 and if we are lucky we will get 60fps games for 12 months followed by 4-9 years of 30fps.
Again here is the scenario
1. FPS bar is set to 60fps as you mention
2. EA releases Battlefield 5 with everything being destructible, 256 player count, ray tracing and some kind of crazy AI system for.. something. but at 30fps
Battlefield 5 defines next gen graphics because it only runs at 30fps.
Here is my question to you.
Is Ubisoft for example going to release a next gen game or a an outdated looking game?
Think of it this way in terms of processing (excluding engine overheads)
30fps = 4Ghz CPU and GPU
60fps = 2Ghz CPU and GPU
Why would game companies be crazy enough to halve the specs of their consoles just to make it run at 60fps?
Whatever games have done 60fps or will do 60fps are unlikely to do so for the entire 5-10 year console life.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 18:11 Post subject: |
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You keep explaining, but I never had issue understanding your point. I just disagreed with it, on the basis that at some point 30fps will simply be a no-go just like it is with going lower than 30 now.
I was specifically arguing against:
| Quote: | | If the PS4 had a 8Ghz processor, 16GB ram and a 2Ghz GPU they would still aim for 30fps... |
At this point you can do plenty while maintaining 60fps. Everything that can be "revolutionary" for next gen will not be tied down by how many pixels you can push out on your screen in a second. We are not that far away from the point where it is more about the gameplay experience and not photo realism, as long as you provide the base level - which I think should be at least 1080p60 right now, because that's where we are with HDTVs.
With hardware like that there will be diminishing returns in terms of what you can do with the level of detail, because 1080p60 will be a low enough bar (for PC it already is - you mostly keep upgrading for 1440p, Eyefinity/Surround, 4K or 120Hz). Going even further, headroom will be large enough on your GPU that simply "filling" it will be costly in terms of development, unless you resort to some ridiculous SSAA levels, so for graphics the next logical step will be increasing the resolution if/when we get to that 4K point, and then we could start talking about 30fps again.
Until then, it's hard for me to accept the "trade-off" when the "next-gen" titles right now are not doing anything that special.
In the end, as I already said, we are stuck with 30fps because enough people are "okay" with it, and publishers/developers (more so, perhaps, Sony/MS) are not in a hurry to sell them the concept of higher frame rate because the hardware is apparently not good enough to guarantee it at acceptable level of detail. If they made a point of it, I am pretty sure it would be the last we heard of 30fps where it matters.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 18:21 Post subject: |
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The Nintendo 64 was revolutionary....
Graphics can and will go a lot further. And when that can't we still have physics, A.I etc
30fps is here to stay, if you want 60fps get a pc
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 18:45 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jun 2014 19:15 Post subject: |
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What is this console peasantry  doing in the PC section?!?!
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 04:21 Post subject: |
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Same shit, different game.
| Quote: | | We really loved the reception to the demo we showed on the PC version at E3. Currently as it stands, there is definitely a lot of push coming from publishers to not make the experience so different on consoles as to alienate people into thinking that next generation is not as powerful as PC |
http://whatifgaming.com/the-division-developer-insider-we-already-downgraded-a-few-things
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 04:48 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 02:01; edited 1 time in total
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Przepraszam
VIP Member
Posts: 14484
Location: Poland. New York.
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 05:17 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 13:06 Post subject: |
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Is the PC platform's market share of video game sales physical/digital large enough for a bigger video game developer to completely ignore consoles, as in not developing multi-platform titles?
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 13:12 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | 30fps = 4Ghz CPU and GPU
60fps = 2Ghz CPU and GPU |
So glad you fully understand how rendering and hardware work  |
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 13:13 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | And because they told you about it now you have no right to be upset about it later  |
SO ... the same shit like last gen of consoles and its 9 years of dx9c rule
but now it will be dx11 fist a then B then C |
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garus
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Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 13:15 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:48; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 23rd Jun 2014 13:52 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:37; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 24th Jun 2014 01:44 Post subject: |
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Ubisoft Massive managing director David Polfeldt just confirmed micro-transactions up in this bitch. Act surprised.
"What we're looking at, and this is still being developed, but what we're looking at is...we want to have a fair trade, fair transactions. So we want to offer gamers things that they actually feel have value to them. As long as they do that, and you're open with it and up front with 'this is the cost, this is what you get' then I think you can have any type of transaction in the game.
What frightens me is manipulative trading, where you pretend that it's a free experience when in fact you're not being truthful because you don't intend it to be free. You're only saying that to draw people in. Your intention is to make people pay. And that's where I think there's an ethical problem with free-to-play games.
Charging for content in itself is fair; I don't have any problem with that. So what we're looking at is we don't want to have pay-to-win, but we are definitely looking at things where you can gain time or comfort.
Bag slots would be a thing that if you really want to have everything in your bag all of the equipment at all times. Maybe it's not practical, but it doesn't really give you an advantage over other gamers.
Some things require time in the game and some people don't want to invest time; they want the shortcut. So we're looking at those types of trades."
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| Posted: Tue, 24th Jun 2014 03:14 Post subject: |
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So is this going to be a F2P title with micro-transactions or a 60€ title with micro-transactions because fucking hell this is getting out of hand.
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| Posted: Tue, 24th Jun 2014 03:20 Post subject: |
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| Prefetian wrote: | | So is this going to be a F2P title with micro-transactions or a 60€ title with micro-transactions because fucking hell this is getting out of hand. |
That's what i was thinking right here, cause if they're talking about "pay to win" in a 60$ game, i sense a new low in the industry. Also, i sense a flock of tards will buy.
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| Posted: Tue, 24th Jun 2014 03:22 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 02:01; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 24th Jun 2014 03:27 Post subject: |
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Well, thechnically it's already started with like BF4 where you can buy the gold cases and shit but they're COMPLETELY worthless so I couldn't care less because you literally have to be brain-dead to pay for it.
But if a 60 dollar game goes pay 2 win then...
And yeah, in 4-5 years sounds about right.
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