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 Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 10:06 Post subject: Vulkan: the successor to OpenGL |
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I thought we had a thread about a previous announcement but I can't find it.
Basically a "reboot" of OpenGL, designed from scratch. Like DirectX 12 it promises a more "to the metal" and thus efficient approach than previous APIs.
https://www.khronos.org/vulkan
| Quote: | Vulkan is the new generation, open standard API for high-efficiency access to graphics and compute on modern GPUs. This ground-up design, previously referred to as the Next Generation OpenGL Initiative, provides applications direct control over GPU acceleration for maximized performance and predictability.
“Industry standard APIs like Vulkan are a critical part of enabling developers to bring the best possible experience to customers on multiple platforms. Valve and the other Khronos members are working hard to ensure that this high-performance graphics interface is made available as widely as possible and we view it as a critical component of SteamOS and future Valve games.”
Gabe Newell - Valve |
In other words Source 2 will support it. And since Epic and Unity are partners as well they will support it as well (although maybe on mobile only or something).
| Quote: | - Initial specs and implementations expected this year
- Will work on any platform that supports OpenGL ES 3.1 and up |
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
Last edited by consolitis on Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 12:38; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 10:10 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 01:09; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 10:11 Post subject: |
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Let's hope the API is a lot better than OpenGL, what a fucking terrible mess that is.
PC: Yes. Console: No.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 10:15 Post subject: |
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 Will they have a different subset of features on mobile again or will those two work similarly? |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 10:17 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | "to the metal" |
Oh, I remember metal
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 10:24 Post subject: |
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As I remember it, games could be very unstable in the old dos days having direct access to hardware.
Will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 11:51 Post subject: |
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| Steelone wrote: | | As I remember it, games could be very unstable in the old dos days having direct access to hardware. |
That's cause x86 hardware sucks.
People made amazing things writing games and demos in assembly on the Amiga.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 12:20 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 12:31 Post subject: |
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Thanks for that.
This caught my eye:
| Quote: | | In all, this could be interesting. Unlike DirectX, Khronos is allowing Vulkan to evolve outside of OpenGL. This could let them experiment in directions that Microsoft might not be able to. With DirectX 12 being “the next DirectX”, they seem to be admitting that it will need to be suitable for all developers once DirectX 11 gets deprecated. This might leave Microsoft with error-checking overhead that Khronos can chuckle at from the sidelines. |
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 12:33 Post subject: |
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Change the title, nor OpenGL nor WebGl not OpenCl are dead btw
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 12:39 Post subject: |
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| Kein wrote: | | Change the title, nor OpenGL nor WebGl not OpenCl are dead btw |
Done, but it is the successor of OpenGL - whether one wants to use it instead of OpenGL or not - so I think the new title is ok. 
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 12:55 Post subject: |
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and btw, dont know if it was already mentioned in another thread: amds mantle is dead
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:20 Post subject: |
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Mantle is not dead. Mantle is evolving into something else. But AMD is suggesting to use Vulkan or DX12 if you only want to use Mantle "1.0" functionality. I guess mantle will mutate into some sort of developer program like nvidia is featuring.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:25 Post subject: |
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if they advice the devs to use dx12 instead of mantle -> mantle is dead and wont longer exist in its current form. they can use their knowledge to improve their drivers for dx12 but the api has no future
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:25 Post subject: |
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Mantle was dead the very day it was announced to the public as an API for games. If it evolves into something else, cool.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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Surray
Posts: 5409
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:26 Post subject: |
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Thank god AMD took the first step with Mantle and forced everyone else to jump on the train. Things are finally moving now.
If people in charge gave a shit about PC gaming we could have had this performance increase years ago...
Have some more respect for mantle, you talk like it was useless and a waste of time.
Likot Mosuskekim, Woodcutter cancels Sleep: Interrupted by Elephant.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:27 Post subject: |
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Mantle was dead since day 0, but that was AMD's intent all along. Move away from the old stuff.
PC: Yes. Console: No.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:29 Post subject: |
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| Surray wrote: | Thank god AMD took the first step with Mantle and forced everyone else to jump on the train. Things are finally moving now.
If people in charge gave a shit about PC gaming we could have had this performance increase years ago...
Have some more respect for mantle, you talk like it was useless and a waste of time. |
+1
Thanks AMD. And to show my support, my next GPU will be a GTX969 |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:33 Post subject: |
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| Areius wrote: | | Mantle was dead since day 0, but that was AMD's intent all along. Move away from the old stuff. |
I doubt it. I think the intent was to offer something that the competition doesn't.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:38 Post subject: |
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| PumpAction wrote: | | Surray wrote: | Thank god AMD took the first step with Mantle and forced everyone else to jump on the train. Things are finally moving now.
If people in charge gave a shit about PC gaming we could have had this performance increase years ago...
Have some more respect for mantle, you talk like it was useless and a waste of time. |
+1
Thanks AMD. And to show my support, my next GPU will be a GTX969 |
Is this a slightly overclocked GTX960? 
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:39 Post subject: |
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It's the proper name for the GTX 970
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Surray
Posts: 5409
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:43 Post subject: |
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amd just had not enough power to push it on the market and with dx12 its just obsolet. ms controls the gfx standards with direct x, windows, xone and even the ps4 uses dx11.2 (with some additions)
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:44 Post subject: |
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| PumpAction wrote: | | It's the proper name for the GTX 970 |
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 13:59 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | Areius wrote: | | Mantle was dead since day 0, but that was AMD's intent all along. Move away from the old stuff. |
I doubt it. I think the intent was to offer something that the competition doesn't. |
No, they shadowed as much as when they announced it. Their intent was to move the instrustry along with a new API, that's why it was available to everyone. They of course knew that if another API came along (like DX12/Vulkan) from multiple companies that would be moved to.
PC: Yes. Console: No.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 14:19 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | I doubt it. I think the intent was to offer something that the competition doesn't. |
If their intent had been to push Mantle, it would've been kept private for longer and they wouldn't have been part of D3D12 and Vulkan the way they have been. If they had wanted to compete with those, rather than triggering changes in how they both functioned, they would've done it the Nvidia way and not actively support those. That's what Nvidia did with CUDA/OpenCL. And that would've bitten them in the ass.
| Janz wrote: | | amd just had not enough power to push it on the market and with dx12 its just obsolet. ms controls the gfx standards with direct x, windows, xone and even the ps4 uses dx11.2 (with some additions) |
PS4 uses DX11.2? Where the fuck are you getting that from?
Even the XBO and 360 don't "use" DirectX. The 360 has something similar to D3D9, but it is not the same. There are features it lacks (due to the hardware) and other things it has that D3D9 (and even D3D10) does not have. Same goes for the XBO, it has D3D but it's not the same as D3D11, it has a bunch of features that aren't found in D3D11. In fact, what the XBO has right now is already 95% of what D3D12 will bring, which is why D3D12 won't do shit for it.
As for the PS4, that does not use DirectX in any way, that's simply impossible (it's still FreeBSD underneath, do you really think they'd run shit via WINE? ). I guess you based this statement off the "DirectX 11 features" bits on their and AMD's slides about the architecture. Just because it supports those features in hardware, does not mean they can only be used via that API. Sony used to have PSGL, which was a superset of OpenGL ES + Nvidia Cg. Now they have their own API (called GNMX which, like Mantle, has an API very similar to other APIs to make translation easy, but it's not the same) with their own shader language.
However, both Sony and MS have also always had a low level API. With Sony that used to be LibGCM, now that's GNM (note the lack of the X compared to the high level API). With MS that was XGraphics on the 360; not sure what it's called now, but I highly doubt it's gone.
As for MS controlling the graphics "standards": on Windows, yes. Everywhere else it's OpenGL (ES). Android, iOS, OS X, Linux all run off OpenGL and OpenCL. Not Direct3D, not DirectCompute, not CUDA. |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 14:38 Post subject: |
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the ps4' gfx chip was designed for pssl which can handle dx11 and opengl 4.3 as well as some special stuff integrated by sony
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 16:16 Post subject: |
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| Janz wrote: | | the ps4' gfx chip was designed for pssl which can handle dx11 and opengl 4.3 as well as some special stuff integrated by sony |
No, it can't "handle" DX11 because a GPU does not "handle" an API or even a shading language. The driver interprets API calls to instructions for the GPU. Furthermore, PSSL is a shading language, not a graphics API. This is the same thing as with Mantle. Mantle's shading language is extremely similar to HLSL (the DX equivalent of PSSL or OpenGL's GLSL), but they are not the same thing. A shader written in HLSL will not work via Mantle unless it's translated. Nor will a GLSL shader work on D3D or vice versa.
Again, what you're referring to are the slides AMD and Sony showed, which said something along the lines of "Direct3D 11.2 / OpenGL 4.4 feature set" (4.4 btw, not 4.3, not sure what the exact wording was but something like this). That does not mean you can use those APIs to work with the chip, as the APIs would have to run on the OS first. Which they don't. What that phrase means is that the chip is capable of everything that's in D3D11.2 and OGL 4.4. And yes, GNMX and PSSL are very similar to the other ones, that's for portability reasons. But they are not the same.
A chip is not designed for any shading language or API. They're designed for the features within those - otherwise they'd never be able to support multiple. And in this particular case, it's the other way around because the consoles were so far behind on everything. GNM(X) and PSSL were built to take advantage of all the new shit we've seen Nvidia and AMD put in GPUs since 2004. Far from all of that was driven by D3D11; quite the opposite. Tessellation, tiled resources, GPGPU are all things invented and driven by Nvidia and AMD, not MS. |
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garus
VIP Member
Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Mar 2015 16:20 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:42; edited 1 time in total
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