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 Posted: Wed, 11th Mar 2015 15:32 Post subject: |
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@paxsali
Aparently the sarcasm in my last post wasn't so clear (even with comparison to Pumpy and the  at the end).
| Il_Padrino wrote: |
I fully agree that I'm a fanatic anti-theist (hence the name), which is also why I don't just call myself non-religious.
However, I would never kill for my belief as 1) atheism is not a belief |
You don't have to be a murderer to be a fanatic, don't know where you got that from.
You have plenty of non-murderous religious and non-religious fanatics, doesn't mean that they're any less annoying to talk to about whatever they're fanatic about. As they are unquestionably right and whatever they say is right.
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Morphineus
VIP Member
Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed, 11th Mar 2015 18:00 Post subject: |
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Well I wouldn't call them fake, I just don't think the label suits them anymore. I'd still call them religious and there is nothing wrong with being just that.
The big religions are outdated/ancient, they don't fit with our society anymore. That's why it would be better if everyone said: let's rewrite/scrap the bullshit or create a new one that doesn't contradict the world they live in. But no... most people defend it while denouncing quite a bit of it.
It will never make sense to me.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Wed, 11th Mar 2015 20:53 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 06:12; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 10:41 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 10:48 Post subject: |
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IS might call themselves islamic but their interpretation is not that of the general and majority followers of Islam. And they have commited enough bullshit to not be considered islamic at all.
I mean you can also call yourself black jew pax, but your tiny wee, white skin and ridiculous wasting of money ( ) speak for something else.
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 11:11 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:50; edited 1 time in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 12:23 Post subject: |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 12:54 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 13:02 Post subject: |
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@Nalo: There is a difference between a sect and a branch of a religion. Sunni's and Shia's represent two different branches of Islam.
Wikipedia:
A sect is a subgroup of a religious, political or philosophical belief system, usually an offshoot of a larger religious group.
Edit:
www.lettertobaghdadi.com as you linked is a good read. Be sure to scroll through the pages and see what islam says and what isis does.
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 13:30 Post subject: |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 13:56 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 13:59 Post subject: |
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Then the meaning of sect in english and german is truly fundamentally different.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 14:15 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 14:38 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 14:41 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73284
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 15:00 Post subject: |
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This thread...
Leave it to European "liberals" to have the audacity to debate what is Islam and what truly represents Islam and what doesn't. 
You know who truly represents islam, christianity? Historically successful "sekts" and/or "denominations". Sunni recognize Shia as part of islam, but wage war on each other because they are not the "real" or "true" islam Are other islam splinter "sects" or "denominations", extinct or otherwise, really representative of islam? If so, why? Because they have existed historically? If not, why not? Because they are not the mainstream? Because you disagree with their way of interpretation of some stupid book? And now that islamic state is waging war on both because it claims to know better than the rest, it is not considered islam?
Also claiming that only islamic state supports islamic state, you mean other than Qatar and Saudi Arabia who have bankrolled islamic state for many years now?
I am sorry, all I see here is politically correct Europeans, trying to come up with a politically correct label for islam, and whatever does not fit their world view, it is considered outcast. BTW, much like claiming that Hitler and nazi Germany were atheistic. Anyone that is not prepubescent knows (or can educate themselves) that the hatred for semitism (not just judaism), homophobia, etc. have deep roots in Christianity. But this does not fit the rose tinted world view, so Hitler was an atheist and hurr durr, does he represent all atheists? No? So religion doesn't represent murder groups! Check mate atheists!
How islamic is the islamic state? Pretty islamic
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 15:05 Post subject: |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14390
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 15:42 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: |
I am sorry, all I see here is politically correct Europeans, trying to come up with a politically correct label for islam, and whatever does not fit their world view, it is considered outcast. BTW, much like claiming that Hitler and nazi Germany were atheistic. Anyone that is not prepubescent knows (or can educate themselves) that the hatred for semitism (not just judaism), homophobia, etc. have deep roots in Christianity. |
You make it sound like its so easy when in fact it isnt. The roots for antisemitism can be found in the history of christianism (starting with Paul) eventhough christian theology accepts judaic theology as a larger part of their own. Then again, the ideological and scientific background in which Germany (and the larger part of the western world btw.) bathed at the time strongly supported the concepts of races on the scientific (sociology, evolution theory and racial theories) and god-chosen nations on the ideologic side ( you find traces from this in Herder, Goethe, Fichte to Heidegger) which in itself stems from the jewish theology of a chosen nation. In fact, a large part of the european philosophical culture is deeply intertwined with jewish science, philosophy and theology, because many of the best european scolars were (and are) jews. What finally led to Nazigermanys will to exterminate all jews cannot be simply attributed to christianity or any other of these sources. I've had few intersting courses about the subject with some jewish professors a few years ago.
And of course it is questionable whether Hitler even was Atheist and since Atheists dont see themselves as a group it is irrelevant. Stalinists were Atheists too etc. That argument is BS anyway.
As for IS and Islam. Well we have no other choice than to give Islam the opportunity to become (or to be) what we paradoxically name an "enlightened religion" (for the lack of a better term). There must be a way to differenciate Islam from IS and other radicals and it is politically important to do so. There are so many Muslims living here, muslim Kids in my school for example, who must be allowed to live their religion just like the others do and see that they are integrated in a bigger Suprareligious community. Politically, we have no other choice. There has to be a door to let everyone become able to see a bigger picture and if we don't allow Islam to have a more moderate and openminded picture of itself (against IS f.e.), we cannot seriously expect them to progress beyond themselves. Many of todays atheists and agnostics come from christian families, because alot of christians became moderate in the last century due to societal changes and questioned their beliefs and finally became unininterested by their religion. I really dont see how treating moderate Muslims as radicals could help anything except making them into radicals.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73284
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:07 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | As for IS and Islam. Well we have no other choice than to give Islam the opportunity to become (or to be) what we paradoxically name an "enlightened religion" (for the lack of a better term). There must be a way to differenciate Islam from IS and other radicals and it is politically important to do so. There are so many Muslims living here, muslim Kids in my school for example, who must be allowed to live their religion just like the others do and see that they are integrated in a bigger Suprareligious community. Politically, we have no other choice. There has to be a door to let everyone become able to see a bigger picture and if we don't allow Islam to have a more moderate and openminded picture of itself (against IS f.e.), we cannot seriously expect them to progress beyond themselves. Many of todays atheists and agnostics come from christian families, because alot of christians became moderate in the last century due to societal changes and questioned their beliefs and finally became unininterested by their religion. I really dont see how treating moderate Muslims as radicals could help anything except making them into radicals. |
Christianity reached this conclusion for itself. Just like Islam has to reach this for themselves. For the time being, Islam is becoming more radicalized. And just like the crusades were part of Christendom, IS is part of Islam. The more you separate the two, the less responsibility will Islam, which includes the moderate muslims, take. But in our world today, there is no responsibility to be had. If we don't like something, we cut our ties with it, and declare it someone's fault and thus someone else's responsibility.
We already differentiate between is laming state from "moderate" muslims. We call one "radical" and the other "moderate". I do not believe Fatih to be part of the islamic state. One may make the partially correct term that "moderate" is an insult, but then, I'd argue the problem is within this "moderate" community, which for years has allowed this "radical" part of Islam grow unchecked and un protested. They share the responsibility for this radical islam, and trying to hide behind labels for poor children of islam in Europe, does good to no one but you and your own sensibilities. By you, I mean the general European population, of course. |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:14 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73284
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:21 Post subject: |
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Actually, I think the contempt is rising because exactly the opposite - tucking your head in the sand and claiming that IS is not islam, and the rapes are not due to islam, and the "moderate" muslims not accepting responsibility is the cause of this wave of anti-islamism. And to be honest, I am conflicted myself on what is better for Europe, which is very sad, coming from a jew whose family suffered (if a little by suffer standards) from racism.
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:27 Post subject: |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:49 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:53 Post subject: |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14390
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:54 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: |
Christianity reached this conclusion for itself. Just like Islam has to reach this for themselves. For the time being, Islam is becoming more radicalized. And just like the crusades were part of Christendom, IS is part of Islam. The more you separate the two, the less responsibility will Islam, which includes the moderate muslims, take. But in our world today, there is no responsibility to be had. If we don't like something, we cut our ties with it, and declare it someone's fault and thus someone else's responsibility. |
The problem is that if you don't separate the two, then you will have to say that everyone is part of the same group of people and everyone fights for the same causes in their own way. In that case there are three possible conclusions: Either all of Islam gets banished (whatever that implies) or Islam effectively and officially seperates itself from itself to become Islam and those radical guys. Christinity has had alot of wars with itself because of the reformation but it is the reformation that finally led to most of the scientific freedoms at the time. And third, muslims begin to understand what a part of them is doing and part of them undergoes the necessary change, which ultimately leads to the second choice (A scission in itself).
I say, ok, ask them to speak out against those other guys actions and for not reacting against Salafists and radical preachers here, on this side of the world, but, at the same time, support those people who manage to integrate and live by the laws of the state (f.e. let their daughters marry whoever they want). And I also believe the cause why there are not many euro-muslims speaking out against IS(and other radicals) is because they simply don't have that many people inside the majors news corps. and political parties. Islam, in Europe is largely a minority, and a poor one at that.
| LeoNatan wrote: | | We already differentiate between is laming state from "moderate" muslims. We call one "radical" and the other "moderate". I do not believe Fatih to be part of the islamic state. One may make the partially correct term that "moderate" is an insult, but then, I'd argue the problem is within this "moderate" community, which for years has allowed this "radical" part of Islam grow unchecked and un protested. They share the responsibility for this radical islam, and trying to hide behind labels for poor children of islam in Europe, does good to no one but you and your own sensibilities. By you, I mean the general European population, of course. |
You have a point there, with the "moderate Islam" term and that community. And of course I'm not taking this personally, but I see it as a personal priority to teach those kids that they live in a state where the law is made in a democratic process (lets not mingle wiht local political crap here) which every religion has to submit to. And whenever I see european gorvernments letting some communities grow to big for their own good and areas where sharia law is more important than that countrys law It makes me sick. Like every organisation, religious organisations should only exist under statutes controlled by the state, and open to everyone. I think the biggest issue with radical Islam is that it has become a way for young muslims to escape their social misery and this is due to decades of really really bad immigration and integration politics. Our politics (educational and otherwise) need to make it clear what is allowed and what is not but at the same time dont marginalize them because of nationality, religion or ethnicity.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Last edited by couleur on Thu, 12th Mar 2015 17:00; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:55 Post subject: |
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Which responsibility should the moderate muslim accept?
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 16:58 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 17:01 Post subject: |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14390
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 17:02 Post subject: |
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Stop derailing every second thread with your bullshit.
@PumpAction: was that question directed at me?
edit: Because I really think there is a responsibility in a "moderate" islamic community when members fall for the radicals without a reaction from the moderates Imams at least. Maybe not in the larger sense. Like when a guy in Berlin Kreuzberg goes radical, all the muslims in Stuttgart have to feel responsible. But when parts of your community breaks off, there is a problem within the community.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Last edited by couleur on Thu, 12th Mar 2015 17:11; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 17:07 Post subject: |
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