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 Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 17:08 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:50; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73292
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 19:35 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: | | PumpAction wrote: | | Which responsibility should the moderate muslim accept? |
Don't fall for the anti-islamic propaganda Pumpy, this whole "Moderate muslims must distanciate themselfs more from terrorists, ISIS and such..." bullshit is a Islamophobic talking point introduced by conservatives who wish to blame all of muslims and make them bow their head before Christians and apologize for the atrocities of IS and other radical groups.
The logic doesnt even make sense.
When's the last time Christians apologized or distanciated themselfes from the Crusades, Holocaust, Witchhunts, Inquisition, Slavery, Breivik and all the other stuff that happend?
You wouldn't even ask the same questions nor invoke the same "responsibility" argument when it comes to other religious groups,
especially not Christians, because those talking points originated in religious, conservative, judeo-christian U.S. american circles. |
What kind of nonsense is this? Of course christianity is held responsible, and for the most part, even large Christian religious institutes have accepted responsibility and denounced it. You haven't heard the pope say "crusades were not Christian, they were Christian extremists". That's nonsense. Everything was done in Christianity name, and was part of Christianity.
There cannot be solution of a problem until you first accept there is a problem. Islam has a problem, and muslims need to accept it, and then work on a solution. The solution will not come from USA waging war, or Europe liberals trying to appease their "poor" islam communities by calming this is not islam problem. The only solution can come from muslims themselves. |
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| Posted: Thu, 12th Mar 2015 19:57 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:50; edited 1 time in total
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7586
Location: Greece by the North Sea
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 13:14 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: |
Islam has no problem at all. Only the people of Islam, called Muslims, have a problem, because some are acting highly immoral and hostile. |
Here's your problem: it's the exact opposite. Islam is very much the problem, the extremist muslims are just an extreme result of what (this) religion can do to people.
When you say Islam is not the problem, but only the people who believe in it, you're just making a fool of yourself. People invented Islam, people wrote the Quran. People are doing all this shit, in the name of their religion. How can you say then that this religion is not the root of the problem!?
| LeoNatan wrote: |
There cannot be solution of a problem until you first accept there is a problem. Islam has a problem, and muslims need to accept it, and then work on a solution. The solution will not come from USA waging war, or Europe liberals trying to appease their "poor" islam communities by calming this is not islam problem. The only solution can come from muslims themselves. |
This, tenfold. But we've a long way to go before that will happen. Instead we have excuse-Muslims even trying to distantiate (their vision of) Islam from IS on this forum.
Here's a newsflash: there are no non-muslims in IS 
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 13:24 Post subject: |
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Surely Islam has a problem pax. The same problem that most religions have -> THIS is the right religion, EVERY other religion is wrong and if you don't believe you go to hell.
And muslims seem to take their religion much more serious. Enlightenment has not met Islam yet. "Moderate" muslims leaders try to steer around the problems and ignore them, while a small fraction radicalizes itself more and more. No, those idiots do not pose the real islam, take a look at the open letter to baghdadi, which has been posted before, but nevertheless, they are muslims.
But being muslim doesn't mean that you are a perfect follower of your religion.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14390
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 13:27 Post subject: |
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Its certainly not Islam in itself that is the problem, just as much as judaism is not a problem in itself. Read the Tora and you will find many suggestions towards agressive behaviour yet the jewish people were quite peaceful for hundreds of years and I dont think that Israels politics are so much guided by the jewish religion. You have many religious communities living peacefully in Israel.
The same is certainly true for Islam. But since Islam seems to have become the dominant ideology for the "oppressed minority" it has become a major tool in giving young people meaning and community. And when I say Muslims are responsible for this its because some Muslim communities just let this radicalisation happen without going public and speaking out against it, when inside their own community radical Imams are read and given an audience. Thats whats wrong with muslim communities here in Europe.
@PumpAction: What you say is true for so many ideologies. Inclusion of members, exclusion of non-members and entitlement unversal truth. Its a bad mix.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 15:43 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:50; edited 1 time in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13527
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 16:44 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 06:11; edited 2 times in total
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7586
Location: Greece by the North Sea
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 16:49 Post subject: |
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But there is still slavery and murder in the bible, isn't there? Just because people choose to ignore or interprete these things differently (because our morals have changed), doesn't change the fact that it's still written there.
And exactly becaues the Bible, Thora, Quran are static and will never change, it will always be a matter of personal opinion, interpretation and discussion.
You can't blame people for hearing the same things all their life and thus believing it.
There must have been a door there in the wall, when I came in.
Truly gone fishing.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14390
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| Posted: Fri, 13th Mar 2015 16:59 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | There are movements within religions that attempt to modernise. Islam has quranists, for example. They disregard the hadiths and have their newer translation of the quran, which has different interpretations of stuff to do with slavery and women's rights etc |
And that is a good thing.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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