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 Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 10:50 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 01:03; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 11:08 Post subject: |
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I don't like that "out of combat" stuff either, but I understand why buffs are on such short timers. And the rest system, I just love. I don't know why people have so many problems with it. I can do 3 levels of Endless Depths, or an entire dungeon of any other sort before I have to go to city for supplies. And usually I only need to rest because one character is too injured anyway. It seems strange to me that people find restricted resting broken, but unlimited sleeping over and over and over again after every encounter - fine. Despite the fact that it made casters in BG2 broken as fuck and 95% of encounters pretty trivial (let's be honest here). Spells were always supposed to be a resource in AD&D - these games just failed to implement that properly. PoE's system isn't perfect, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. And having encounter abilities and classes designed around different mechancs makes fights interesting despite these lmitations.
I don't know, maybe it doesn't botter me because even in IE games I only allowed myself rest when clerics were completely out of healing options and wizards out of most spells.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 11:11 Post subject: |
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| h0rnyfavn wrote: | What I don't like is how they decided to make fights more "challenging" but in fact they just made playing this game somewhat irritating coz these changes are really dubious to say the least ..
- rest limit
- certain buffing spells disabled out of combat
This one doesn't make any sense at all. Why a wizard can't cast this or that defensive\buffing spell outside of combat? And this is why it is so irritating and contrived.
- certain attack abilities disabled out of combat
It doesn't make any sense either. So, a fighter can't use X to attack someone coz..well. no reason.. just coz devs say so.
These totally artificial constraints are just bad pretty much coz they are ridiculous and make absolutely no sense. That's just lazy. |
Its so you can't exploit AI so casters can nuke off screen again like all the previous IE games. I'm grateful that they seem to have brought casters more inline with the other classes this time around.. I didn't use mages/sorc at all in BG 1&2 because they were ridiculously imbalanced and for me made the game un-enjoyable.
Regarding rest, I don't necessarily think the new system's perfect, but god mode resting full recovery on a whim was not great either. I don't mind the new system they have in place but i think the life points are too easily managed at this point, there should be some slow drain HP curses, bypass END and dmg HP etc.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14350
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 11:12 Post subject: |
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The resting system just works because of the endurance system. Other wise characters would be out of health alot sooner.
In BG the resting system made sense because of interruptions.
(imo)
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 11:14 Post subject: |
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| Aquma wrote: | I don't like that "out of combat" stuff either, but I understand why buffs are on such short timers. And the rest system, I just love. I don't know why people have so many problems with it. I can do 3 levels of Endless Depths, or an entire dungeon of any other sort before I have to go to city for supplies. And usually I only need to rest because one character is too injured anyway. It seems strange to me that people find restricted resting broken, but unlimited sleeping over and over and over again after every encounter - fine. Despite the fact that it made casters in BG2 broken as fuck and 95% of encounters pretty trivial (let's be honest here). Spells were always supposed to be a resource in AD&D - these games just failed to implement that properly. PoE's system isn't perfect, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. And having encounter abilities and classes designed around different mechancs makes fights interesting despite these lmitations.
I don't know, maybe it doesn't botter me because even in IE games I only allowed myself rest when clerics were completely out of healing options and wizards out of most spells. |
Resting has always been a dubious system. I love the IE games but they never handled this aspect well.
The only time it ever felt tense resting wise in the IE games is if you had combat encounters stacked on each other, and I don't remember there being many of those in the games. |
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 11:26 Post subject: |
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@AmpegV4
This is understandable but as I said it doesn't make any sense in-game.This is what bothering me.
| Quote: | | I'm grateful that they seem to have brought casters more inline with the other classes this time around. |
I'm not. And I'm especially not happy how they did it.. Raistlins must always be more powerful than Caramons.They are much weaker in the beginning but in the end they must reach a demi-god status.
@couleur | Quote: | | The resting system just works because of the endurance system |
I see it as a contrived change to nerf magic. Plain and simple. And now they've started nerfing actual spells  Well, slicken did need toning down but not the change they made.
Without having a cipher or two or more lol I would actually have to constantly go to inns to rest. Most of the time wizards are just dead weight here You don't wanna waste their spells against "ordinary" enemies\who seem ordinary coz there is always a chance you might stumble across someone too powerful and will have to fight without any spells at your disposal , so most of the time they just use crossbows and shit.
I've always preferred playing casters but this is not fun,men. Not fun at all.
Oh and there is another thing.. They've started nerfing abilities but we have several difficulty modes.. so once nerfed this or that spell becomes OK on normal, mediocre on hard and totally useless on POD.. How do you actually "balance" this,uh?
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 11:53 Post subject: |
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| h0rnyfavn wrote: | | How do you actually "balance" this,uh? |
With an endless series of nerf patches over the next 6 months or so.
I never understood Sawyer's mad obsession with "balance". It's a single player game, and a party-based game at that. Who cares if one or two classes are slightly more powerful than the others? People are always going to find a way to power game and break systems in ways unintended by the designer/s. It's an exercise in futility trying to stop it.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 12:33 Post subject: |
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It's not about "breaking systems", which happens, btw, even MORE in MMOs or multiplayer games.
It's about balancing choices so that all of them are viable for the (single) player. At the core, it's the fun of playing a polished and fair game. 
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 12:35 Post subject: |
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| DCB wrote: | | h0rnyfavn wrote: | | How do you actually "balance" this,uh? |
With an endless series of nerf patches over the next 6 months or so.
I never understood Sawyer's mad obsession with "balance". It's a single player game, and a party-based game at that. Who cares if one or two classes are slightly more powerful than the others? People are always going to find a way to power game and break systems in ways unintended by the designer/s. It's an exercise in futility trying to stop it. |
You tend to use whatever makes you more powerful, that's kinda how RPGs work. Spamming Mind Blades on my Cipher was kinda cool for a while until I realized I would be doing that for the rest of the game, nerfing it might force me to look into other abilities and use a more diverse repertoire. Diversity is good, hm?
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 12:41 Post subject: |
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| Steelone wrote: | | Aquma wrote: | I don't like that "out of combat" stuff either, but I understand why buffs are on such short timers. And the rest system, I just love. I don't know why people have so many problems with it. I can do 3 levels of Endless Depths, or an entire dungeon of any other sort before I have to go to city for supplies. And usually I only need to rest because one character is too injured anyway. It seems strange to me that people find restricted resting broken, but unlimited sleeping over and over and over again after every encounter - fine. Despite the fact that it made casters in BG2 broken as fuck and 95% of encounters pretty trivial (let's be honest here). Spells were always supposed to be a resource in AD&D - these games just failed to implement that properly. PoE's system isn't perfect, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. And having encounter abilities and classes designed around different mechancs makes fights interesting despite these lmitations.
I don't know, maybe it doesn't botter me because even in IE games I only allowed myself rest when clerics were completely out of healing options and wizards out of most spells. |
Resting has always been a dubious system. I love the IE games but they never handled this aspect well.
The only time it ever felt tense resting wise in the IE games is if you had combat encounters stacked on each other, and I don't remember there being many of those in the games. |
Resting sucks for pc rpg's.
Example:
I'm not very far in the game cause i'm waiting for the patch.
Last thing I did was the temple of eathos with a pary of 4 level 4 guys in hard. In the second level i could beat the fights, but with a priest, fighter/tank, wizard en dps rougue I could only beat them while resting almost every fight cause of spells needed. Rested about 5 times in the Inn. Did the dungeon, but it was not very fun to do and it feels like cheating.
Point is cause you're new to the game, you've no clue why the dungeon is hard. Could be you're level's to low, need more npc's or have an unbalenced party, better gear or just plain bad in playing the game. Normaly you would wait with the dungeon and level up, but exploiting resting gives another, yet not fun, option to do stuff that you're not ready for.
Also, the per rest spell casting sucks cause it makes it hard to try different tactics and just see how things work out, cause you're suposed to save you're best spells for the harder fights.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 13:07 Post subject: |
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The fact that it costs you something doesn't mean you can't try different tactics. Especially in a game that lets you change your spell selection on the fly without any sort of resting. Also, it's entirelly possible to do temple of Eothas with two rests. I had a party of three level 4 characters and one lvl 3 priest (didn't have Durance then) and I did it just fine. The dungeon isn't hard because of resting, it's mostly challenging because people don't know the game yet.
Spell systems in D&D/PoE are all about choices. It's easy to deduct wheter you'll need magic in a given enocunter or not, it's also incredibly easy to save at least one rest until the end of the dungeon, so you can rest prior to a big fight (I mean, most people expect that boss at the end, right?). It just requires a bit of planning and strategic thinking - something that's very welcome in my RPG games.
But to each is own. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just voicing my opinion.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 13:34 Post subject: |
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| Aquma wrote: | Also, it's entirelly possible to do temple of Eothas with two rests. I had a party of three level 4 characters and one lvl 3 priest (didn't have Durance then) and I did it just fine. The dungeon isn't hard because of resting, it's mostly challenging because people don't know the game yet.
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No doubt the content is doable with a party of 4 level 4.
My guess was that my dps rogue sucks, or that I need another tank, and of course i don't know the game yet, i just started. Anyway, I needed damage spells to overcome my sole tank of dying a bit to soon.
Point is, while learning the game, resting is not a fun option to overcome the harder fights, but you end up doing it anyway cause the alternative is quiting the dungeon and doing it later. Even with perfect play/pary/gear, you still will run into areas that are to hard for you're party, but when exploiting resting is an option to overcome this, most people will do this.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 13:38 Post subject: |
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Yes, but once you know the game unlimited resting is no better than a cheat, IMO. That's just a lazy design.
Still, I guess they could've included an option in the menus - everyone would be happy then.
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dsergei
Posts: 4055
Location: Moscow, Russia
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 13:47 Post subject: |
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I keep everyone with on-rest spells in the back with guns/bows/crossbows with Kana chanting the reload song. I keep thinking I might need some spells later but that time never comes.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 13:53 Post subject: |
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Yeah, you really don't need spells outside of a few select encounters. Especially if you have a Chanter and/or Cipher in the party.
I'm only in the first town with my PotD party, so obviously that might change on that difficulty.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:08 Post subject: |
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| dsergei wrote: | | I keep everyone with on-rest spells in the back with guns/bows/crossbows with Kana chanting the reload song. I keep thinking I might need some spells later but that time never comes. |
The reload song is getting a well deserved debuff - I didn't use it, just like I didn't use all the cheeses.
Positioning is the key to not having to use spells every encounter. With a party, where athletics is at least 2 on all members, I rest because of exhaustion, not because I need more spells.
The RPG mechanics, imho, are very solid.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:11 Post subject: |
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| Aquma wrote: | The fact that it costs you something doesn't mean you can't try different tactics. Especially in a game that lets you change your spell selection on the fly without any sort of resting. Also, it's entirelly possible to do temple of Eothas with two rests. I had a party of three level 4 characters and one lvl 3 priest (didn't have Durance then) and I did it just fine. The dungeon isn't hard because of resting, it's mostly challenging because people don't know the game yet.
Spell systems in D&D/PoE are all about choices. It's easy to deduct wheter you'll need magic in a given enocunter or not, it's also incredibly easy to save at least one rest until the end of the dungeon, so you can rest prior to a big fight (I mean, most people expect that boss at the end, right?). It just requires a bit of planning and strategic thinking - something that's very welcome in my RPG games.
But to each is own. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just voicing my opinion. |
This is completely true. I killed them with 4 people as well, on hard. Two things to that region: 1. Kill shadows first, only after that kill shades. This in and of itself trivializes the encounters, but if that's not enough, then charm a shade or blind them, or debuff their accuracy in another way, will make the fights simple.
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Doh!
Posts: 1361
Location: Wellhigh DK
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:14 Post subject: |
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| dsergei wrote: | | I keep everyone with on-rest spells in the back with guns/bows/crossbows with Kana chanting the reload song. I keep thinking I might need some spells later but that time never comes. |
If that prevails after the patch (that nerfs a lot of those things) you need to bump up the difficulty, because that sounds boring.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:17 Post subject: |
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| DCB wrote: | | blackeyedboy wrote: | | It's about balancing choices so that all of them are viable for the (single) player. |
When everything is special, nothing is. Homogeneity is boring if you ask me. And Sawyer's whole thing about not wanting players to make broken builds is horseshit anyway. You can still make sub-optimal/useless characters in PoE just as easily as in the IE games if you assign your stats wrong or pick useless talents.
| blackeyedboy wrote: | | At the core, it's the fun of playing a polished and fair game. |
What it boils down to is that Sawyer's idea of fun is not shared by a lot of people. |
Your theory stand quite correct. You can create crap/fantastic builds in any game and this Mr. Sawyer is really delusional if he aims to streamline the efficiency of a party - this is what "not wanting players to make broken builds" means actually... (if THIS is the case, never read about his goals concerning this subject).
But still, it remains subjective the aspect of fun in variety. You call it homogeneity. I call it diversity and choice. Let me give you an example:
What if one time I want to play as a ranger BUT the next time/walk-through a plate melee character? This second time I would certainly feel a slight discontent knowing that some stacked-up ranger skills are absolutely top OP stuff... OR that the degree of survivability for the ranger - in reverse - would absolutely suck in some situations?!
So, for me, I think this is what balance is all about. |
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:27 Post subject: |
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| Radicalus wrote: | | Aquma wrote: | The fact that it costs you something doesn't mean you can't try different tactics. Especially in a game that lets you change your spell selection on the fly without any sort of resting. Also, it's entirelly possible to do temple of Eothas with two rests. I had a party of three level 4 characters and one lvl 3 priest (didn't have Durance then) and I did it just fine. The dungeon isn't hard because of resting, it's mostly challenging because people don't know the game yet.
Spell systems in D&D/PoE are all about choices. It's easy to deduct wheter you'll need magic in a given enocunter or not, it's also incredibly easy to save at least one rest until the end of the dungeon, so you can rest prior to a big fight (I mean, most people expect that boss at the end, right?). It just requires a bit of planning and strategic thinking - something that's very welcome in my RPG games.
But to each is own. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just voicing my opinion. |
This is completely true. I killed them with 4 people as well, on hard. Two things to that region: 1. Kill shadows first, only after that kill shades. This in and of itself trivializes the encounters, but if that's not enough, then charm a shade or blind them, or debuff their accuracy in another way, will make the fights simple. |
Tried all, my problem was my main character that isn't doing alot as a dps rogue, will sort that out after the patch, i used daggers but fast weapons don't seem a good choice at the monent. So with eder mainly soaking up damage, and a priest and mage, spells were the only means of doing decent damage.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:36 Post subject: |
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@friketje You need to get a cipher=) he has a certain aoe spell that makes all enemies flanked so your rogue can do some nasty damage. Well, theoretically 
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 14:40 Post subject: |
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| friketje wrote: | | Radicalus wrote: | | Aquma wrote: | The fact that it costs you something doesn't mean you can't try different tactics. Especially in a game that lets you change your spell selection on the fly without any sort of resting. Also, it's entirelly possible to do temple of Eothas with two rests. I had a party of three level 4 characters and one lvl 3 priest (didn't have Durance then) and I did it just fine. The dungeon isn't hard because of resting, it's mostly challenging because people don't know the game yet.
Spell systems in D&D/PoE are all about choices. It's easy to deduct wheter you'll need magic in a given enocunter or not, it's also incredibly easy to save at least one rest until the end of the dungeon, so you can rest prior to a big fight (I mean, most people expect that boss at the end, right?). It just requires a bit of planning and strategic thinking - something that's very welcome in my RPG games.
But to each is own. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just voicing my opinion. |
This is completely true. I killed them with 4 people as well, on hard. Two things to that region: 1. Kill shadows first, only after that kill shades. This in and of itself trivializes the encounters, but if that's not enough, then charm a shade or blind them, or debuff their accuracy in another way, will make the fights simple. |
Tried all, my problem was my main character that isn't doing alot as a dps rogue, will sort that out after the patch, i used daggers but fast weapons don't seem a good choice at the monent. So with eder mainly soaking up damage, and a priest and mage, spells were the only means of doing decent damage. |
Use DR reducing weapons, this is important. Stilettos.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 15:02 Post subject: |
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I'm still a bit puzzled about damage reduction. I used fast weapons cause of standard DPS rogue, asumed balance should be ok. But cause of the DR mechanic, fast weapons seemuseless anyway, even i've they bypass DR a bit.
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 15:11 Post subject: |
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Any tips for that completely retarded fight against 300 shadows in the lighthouse?
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 15:19 Post subject: |
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Leishar
Posts: 356
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 15:19 Post subject: |
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| Bob Barnsen wrote: | | Any tips for that completely retarded fight against 300 shadows in the lighthouse? |
 Spoiler: | Yes, try to find some more information in the area without actually fighting. I managed to finish that quest without fighting the banshee. |
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Apr 2015 15:23 Post subject: |
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Yeah if you mean the top floor, you're doing it wrong. Should only be two encounters of like half a dozen or so otherwise from memory. They should have a low resist to fire, so Fireball, Fan of Flames, the flame weapon chant, flame enchantments, etc.
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