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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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 Posted: Sat, 3rd Dec 2005 21:47 Post subject: |
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I never really liked 2&3. They tried to reveal too damn much. The first movie left you thinking. Whereas 2&3 went too long (imho).
| indiana wrote: | | So it really is a crap movie, but despite this you want to praise it because you feel it has some deep meaning to it? |
It has nothing to do with what I "feel". If I judged this movie on feelings alone, I'd be apalled, feel bad, and disgusted at the same time.
However, there really is (despite what your simple reasoning tells you) "a couple of" dimensions between "Crap" and "Perfection".
| indiana wrote: | | That wasn't me trying to protect my ego. That's just a dig at your pompous ass. |
I am only as pompous as you are insignificant.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Dec 2005 22:32 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | However, there really is (despite what your simple reasoning tells you) "a couple of" dimensions between "Crap" and "Perfection". |
Hey, look at this. You're against overgeneralizations. That's funny looking back at your previous posts in this thread.
| fisk wrote: | | I am only as pompous as you are insignificant. |
Don't hold back now. Say what you really think.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 00:38 Post subject: |
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| indiana wrote: | | Hey, look at this. You're against overgeneralizations. |
Nope.
What I am, is for more dimensions between Crap and Perfection.
How long will you go on proving the fact that you're lost on inductive argument?
You're still on talking about shit that doesn't even belong in my point. You were so distracted by the fact that I wrote "american" and "bush" somewhere up there, you can't bring yourself to realize anything beyond arguing that.
Which makes it blatantly more obvious that you couldn't grasp the two SAW-movies, even if your life depended on it. You'd still be looking at all the blood ["OMG! GORE MOVIE!, BAD!"], where everyone else (with a clue) had moved on to seeing the point.
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Don't hold back now. Say what you really think. |
I already did, perhaps in a couple of weeks, when you (hopefully) catch up, you'll even perhaps start understanding it.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 01:00 Post subject: |
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i dont really see how the saw movies can be a moral wake up call, since there is only one character that really had a positively changed life after the experience, the others simply died (with exceptions). while i agree that the aspect is there, saying it is the movie´s message is a bit exaggerated as it didnt carry through much of the movie.
regarding matrix, yea the 1st one is my all time favs, not cuz of the fighting sequences, they actually sucked ass bad, but because of the story. this movie had such a well developed and complex story and - wow, everything made sense!
you cant say that about the other 2, as indiana pointed out, the philosophy in 2 and the architect scene were probably inspired by an anime like nge, pretentious to the end.
of course there will always be ppl saying "you re dumb, you didnt understand it!" while feeling intelligent with their pea brains, but really, there is nothing to understand, its utter pointless crap.
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Mutantius
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Location: In Elektro looking for beans
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 01:08 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Mutantius wrote: | You tell me that millions went to the cinema because of their friends stated that it was a film about a "moral wake-up call"? nigga please...
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No. I didn't tell you that. You need to work on your understanding-skills.
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I know what jigsaw is doing in both film. Since thats the core of the movie and what should really drives it but it simply doesnt... He could be using lethal gas to kill all of them but that would simply be to boring...
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He challenges their survival instinct... How badly do they want to survive? A person that has a strong will to live, and doesn't easily surrender their life, deserves it. I think it's a well made point in a world where fucking goth-wannabes kill themselves for not getting enough cereal.
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When audience returned home to their friend I really doubt that they would say: " Wow look hes killing people because of moral issues towards life!"
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And why would I give the slightest fuck what the stupid masses think or say?
I never argued that people understood this movie, in fact, this thread pretty much proves my point.
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They would probably (with eager) tell how Cary elwes removes his foot or when that chinese dude get a bucket of shots from head to toe... |
Why are you still proving my point that people are stupid? |
Gore is needed to make this movie attractive... And btw masses=succes.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 01:57 Post subject: |
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| Mutantius wrote: | | Gore is needed to make this movie attractive... And btw masses=succes. |
I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
| D_A_Kuja wrote: | | i dont really see |
Finally someone who at least can admit it to himself. That's strong, man.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 02:15 Post subject: |
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lol yea, just disregard everything you cant give an answer to, who needs arguments anyway
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 02:18 Post subject: |
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| indiana wrote: |
I missed this nugget before, but for somebody who doesn't give a fuck about the subject you sure have a lot to say about it. 
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You really can't read, can you?
I said I didn't care for the masses. The movie, now that's another point entirely.
The fact that the masses don't get it, just emphasises one of my points: people are stupid.
| Quote: | | Fair enough. I'm recanting my previous score and I'll now grade it as "mediocre, standard Hollywood entertainment". |
... or, you could just've written: "I don't get the movie".
Yes. There really *is* something to get here.
| Quote: | | I'm a little perplexed at what you're hinting at. |
Is perplexed a synonyme for daft where you come from? I'm saying: you are not getting it.
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Are you saying that I'm against gore movies all of sudden? How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
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No... this just adds it to your series of false assumptions. Is english really that hard to comprehend?
I was saying:
| fisk wrote: | | You'd still be looking at all the blood ["OMG! GORE MOVIE!, BAD!"], |
This is to illustrate where you fail to see the point of the movie. It really doesn't matter if you, like Mutantius, really thought that this movie was about gore or not. Fact is, none of you seem to be able to grasp the fact that both SAW-movies (the second one managed to get it out better than the first, honestly though) are about one man's journey to make people understand how many people take their waste of breath for granted, and how shallow they lead their lives.
Simplified...the "beauty" of this story, or moral issue, if you will. Is that he allows them a test of will. It's simple - if your will to live is strong enough, you survive. Something he himself doesn't have the luxury to have.
Yes, you can argue that this really isn't interesting. And I probably wouldn't have the stamina to tell you why it is anyway. But the fact of the matter is; there are layers of comprehending what's behind this movie.
Compared to Seven for instance, a (what you probably would call) mediocre Hollywood movie - you do not really haven't got any motive behind the murders. Basically, the perception of a murderer in this movie is that "murderers are just crazy, and kill a lot".
The funny part about this, is that a lot of people who liked Seven [my source on this is imdb, and how people compare the two different movies] really disliked SAW, and said it's a blatant rip-off. Where it's exactly the total opposite.
In SAW1&2 the director gives a background story of the killer (much like Hitchcock did, for instance), his reasoning, motive, and view of the world - which can very well be applied to modern society for instance.
It's really quite a simple notion really, but it's a fundamental difference of perceiving the way movies become more solid. If you have a murderer who is just a "crazy fuck" who (paraphrazing Seven) sits in his own shit and reads guns&ammo all day - I would agree that SAW doesn't contain anything beyond the initial view.
Fact is, it does. And if you'd bother to use that machine of cognition that distorts your perception, you would probably also "get it".
| Quote: | | Are you some pretend arthouse/Mensa troll? |
Wrong again. Are you going to continue this guessing-game, or just admit it that you got it all wrong?
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 02:19 Post subject: |
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| D_A_Kuja wrote: | | lol yea, just disregard everything you cant give an answer to, who needs arguments anyway |
You have a whole thread of arguments here. If you're really interested, I've already covered your input.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 02:29 Post subject: |
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its hard to find any good argument since half of your posts in here deal with your hatred towards the people who didnt like the movies.
then you talk about challenge of survival instinct on one hand and of a moral wake up call on the other, you know that these dont really fit together?
on one side you have a character whose life was totally changed, on the other one you have one with an extraordinary will to survive, who goes around killing all the others just for his own self.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 02:31 Post subject: |
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| D_A_Kuja wrote: | | its hard to find any good argument since half of your posts in here deal with your hatred towards the people who didnt like the movies. |
Not really, but if it helps you to think so... I won't stop your delusions.
edit: I'll even make it simpler for you, and quickly copy&paste them, minus some emphasis and repetition:
| fisk wrote: |
You've missed the point, if you think SAW is about the gore.
No, no, no man. The point of both movies is the fact that this man has a point. It's a moral wakeup call. And I can fucking sympathize.
He challenges their survival instinct... How badly do they want to survive? A person that has a strong will to live, and doesn't easily surrender their life, deserves it. I think it's a well made point in a world where fucking goth-wannabes kill themselves for not getting enough cereal.
Though, you could of course deceive your perceptive ability, and fail to see it's content by distracting yourself with wordings such as: "It's black and white", or "It doesn't have stereo sound", et cetera.
It's really quite the same as watching SAW, and saying it's a: "Gore movie".
Yes, of course, in it's own it's a true statement. There is a bunch of gore in the movie. But that isn't the point at all. It's about as insightful as saying: "Oh! Keanu Reeves can't act, therefore The Matrix is a bad movie".
It has nothing to do with what I "feel". If I judged this movie on feelings alone, I'd be apalled, feel bad, and disgusted at the same time.
However, there really is (despite what your simple reasoning tells you) [...] What I am, is for more dimensions between Crap and Perfection.
act is, none of you seem to be able to grasp the fact that both SAW-movies (the second one managed to get it out better than the first, honestly though) are about one man's journey to make people understand how many people take their waste of breath for granted, and how shallow they lead their lives.
Simplified...the "beauty" of this story, or moral issue, if you will. Is that he allows them a test of will. It's simple - if your will to live is strong enough, you survive. Something he himself doesn't have the luxury to have.
Compared to Seven for instance, a (what you probably would call) mediocre Hollywood movie - you do not really haven't got any motive behind the murders. Basically, the perception of a murderer in this movie is that "murderers are just crazy, and kill a lot".
The funny part about this, is that a lot of people who liked Seven [my source on this is imdb, and how people compare the two different movies] really disliked SAW, and said it's a blatant rip-off. Where it's exactly the total opposite.
In SAW1&2 the director gives a background story of the killer (much like Hitchcock did, for instance), his reasoning, motive, and view of the world - which can very well be applied to modern society for instance.
It's really quite a simple notion really, but it's a fundamental difference of perceiving the way movies become more solid. If you have a murderer who is just a "crazy fuck" who (paraphrazing Seven) sits in his own shit and reads guns&ammo all day - I would agree that SAW doesn't contain anything beyond the initial view.
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Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 07:13 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: |
Simplified...the "beauty" of this story, or moral issue, if you will. Is that he allows them a test of will. It's simple - if your will to live is strong enough, you survive. Something he himself doesn't have the luxury to have.
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I wouldn't say this is strictly true. Remember in the first one where the man is confined in a cage with razor wire spanning it? Well, even if he had the strongest survival instinct on the planet I doubt he could have got out of that one. See, the message is there, just that jigsaw doesn't always relay it in an objective manner. This might have something to do with the fact he's a fucking lunatic.
Sometimes fisk it seems you talk about him as if he were sane.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 11:10 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Mutantius wrote: | | Gore is needed to make this movie attractive... And btw masses=succes. |
I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
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Well can you find a post where you actually agree with me? Is it some kind of "disagreement" behavior towards all the users you encounter?
What fails with SAW is that you can't believe in that shit JigSaw actually says and just like that barbwire part (as mentioned before) you can't simply survive. Thereby JigSaw is a killer.
If the movie had a better script and maybe a better director then I could agree with you. Since the message about becoming a better person doesnt work at all.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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fisk
Posts: 9145
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 11:54 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: |
I wouldn't say this is strictly true. Remember in the first one where the man is confined in a cage with razor wire spanning it? Well, even if he had the strongest survival instinct on the planet I doubt he could have got out of that one. See, the message is there, just that jigsaw doesn't always relay it in an objective manner. This might have something to do with the fact he's a fucking lunatic.
Sometimes fisk it seems you talk about him as if he were sane. |
You mean the 46 year old male who died because he cut his own femoral artery?, There definitely is a way out of that situation. The reason why he dies though, is that he panics - and refuses to apply self-control.
Just listen to what the man says in the tape: "You're perfectly healthy, sane, middle-class male, yet last month, you ran a straight razor across your wrist. Did you cut yourself because you truly wanted to die, or did you just want some attention? Tonight you'll show me.
The irony is that if you want to die, you just have to stay where you are, but if you want to live, you'll have to cut yourself again, find the path through the razor wire, to the door, but hurry. How much blood will you shed to stay alive?"
Fact is, he was given two hours. And there was a path through the razor wire.
I don't think jigsaw is sane, but then again - I think none of his victims are either. The fundamental difference between them though, is that Jigsaw must die, and has a strong will to live. Whereas his victims seems to take life for granted, and lacks any real will, and survival instinct.
Yes, yes I'm back.
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fisk
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 12:27 Post subject: |
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| Mutantius wrote: | | Well can you find a post where you actually agree with me? Is it some kind of "disagreement" behavior towards all the users you encounter? |
Very perceptive of you Mutantius. Yes, I usually disagree with you. But if you look closely, you'll start seeing a pattern in which users I disagree with.
It's a handful. And usually on the same topics (eg. USA). And, contrary to what you want to indicate here, I do not just disagree to disagree. Though I could understand why that would be more convenient for you to believe.
No. The reason why I usually disagree with -you- is the simple fact that, in my opinion, you have little insight on any serious topics you participate in, and generally, you spam a whole damn lot of nonsense [in my opinion of course].
Now, I write this, because you're asking. And while it would probably benefit you that I just disagree with you now "just to disagree", you'll see that I've already stated that I do not think either that this is a "brilliant movie".
My point was there was depth to it, and that most people (eg. you) failed to see anything beyond the surface of it.
| Mutantius wrote: |
What fails with me is that I can't believe in that shit JigSaw actually says and just like that barbwire part (as mentioned before) I can't see how you can't simply survive.
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Pardon for editing that quote, but that's virtually what you're saying.
Ok, you do not believe in what he says. What is it that you don't believe? That there is a way out of his puzzles? There is! The victims [for I agree with the fact that they are] just need to get a hold of themselves, concentrate on something beyond feeling sorry for themselves (and cutting your wrist).
What they need to survive is the piece of the puzzle that they have to find within themselves to get out of their situation. What Jigsaw really does is test themselves against that.
| Quote: |
Thereby JigSaw is a killer.
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Technically he isn't. But yes, he definitely has the responsibility of their deaths. So sure, in a way he's a killer, but in a way the people he targets already lack the fundamentality of life.
| Quote: | | If the movie had a better script and maybe a better director then I could agree with you. Since the message about becoming a better person doesnt work at all. |
It doesn't involve any issue about "becoming a better person", you still can't see. The reason why he kills isn't for them, in essence, to become better people. It's to become alive, to wake up, to stop living in a dormant illusion.
This has nothing to do, really, with the ability of the director. He just doesn't use the simplified image language you're used to, and talks in regular print, whereas Hollywood tends to always emphasise each and every detail that has the slightest significance for the audience, to the point of (like I said earlier) putting up blinking arrows to steer the viewers minds to understanding the plot.
I believe it was Kieslowsky (sp?) that once said (with some modification): "In general, the american film industry is aimed at stupid viewers that understand and wish only to see/be entertained in the simplest fashion possible. What I do isn't hard to grasp, only if you compare it to their [US] movies. But then again, that's like comparing a childrens book to Dostoijevskij." - and to continue on his reasoning: of course, some children will argue that children's books are equally as full with content, and depth as the classical authors.
I don't think though that this director is even nearly as talented as Dostoijevskij or Kieslovsky, but I will not take away from SAW, that it has depth, thought, and intent.
Anyway. I think this debate, really, is over. We've all said our piece now. You (implicitly) basically say it doesn't have anything beyond the surface, where I say it has. I argue that this isn't a matter of opinion (but fact), in the same way Wittgenstein has content, but that it requires you to think to get it.
If you do not wish to use your sensory apparatus, only to be entertained, then - yes, this is a bad movie. But don't insult people who actually mostly doesn't put their brain on hold.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Mutantius
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fisk
Posts: 9145
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 13:31 Post subject: |
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I've already seen all the movies you recommended.
Clockwork orange is a fine movie, not the best I'd say though. But absolutely fine. You can never go wrong with Kubrick.
What I don't get is how you say you grasp these movies, and still fail to see the depth of SAW.
My initial impression still stands, I'm afraid.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Dec 2005 13:35 Post subject: |
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Glad we agree on the kubrick part.
As I mentioned before I have captured the depth and thought about it and I still say that it isnt properly connected with the actin, directing nor history. If it was better on those parts then it would have been a great movie.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Thu, 22nd Dec 2005 16:05 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 22nd Dec 2005 16:59 Post subject: |
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Hostel is very good movie
i can't wait to see it
SAW and Hostel Rulezzzzzzzzzz
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Mutantius
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ThOMaZ
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Location: Here
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Dec 2005 13:22 Post subject: |
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lol@clip
if the whole movie is as that little clip, it's probably going to be good 
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Mar 2006 15:54 Post subject: |
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Release.....: Hostel.DVDSCR.XViD-LLG
Release.date: 28 Feb 2006
Theatre.date:
DVD.date....:
Codec.......: XViD @ 880kb/s
File.Size...: 1CD
FPS.........: 29
Sound.......: 128Kbit VBR MP3
Runtime.....: 99 min
Rating......: 6.1/10 (6,149 votes)
arr right Hostel DVD Screener!
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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ThOMaZ
Posts: 809
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Mar 2006 16:14 Post subject: |
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any watermarks of black and white sequences? (watermarks i can live with, b&w, i'll wait for a dvdrip)
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Mutantius
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Mar 2006 16:49 Post subject: |
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looks like fisk is on a posting spree 
I totally agree with everything fisk said in this thread, I do not say this very often, so don't get used to it.
but you've just followed my line of thinking 100% in the right direction.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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Mutantius
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