I mean, ofc there is a difference
I didn't wanted to include speakers topic into this. Let's just ignore it...
And I would not disregard both CAL! headphones or Koss porta pro. Those are indeed very cheap but both best I've used. Creative was just a bit small on the headband. Koss is my fav of all I had so far.
As for speakers, I have Cambridge DT2200 and I have removed 3 speakers years ago and am using it in 2.1 desk setup. It's been treating me fantastic and it's a good setup for a very small room.
Most guys just go for huge speakers with wattage so high it produces static but there is nothing wrong in nice pair of bookshelf speakers. They just require an amp and it have it's own cables, and then cables are everywhere. I am just not a fan of this solution and was angry when answering to SPykez about DAC connections. I had a rough day. Sorry
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Most guys just go for huge speakers with wattage so high
lol Koss, I'm amazed those are even around still. Had a pair growing up that I used all the damn time. Kinda curious if they've gone through any revisions or if they're still the good ones that were big during the 80s.
Quote:
It's just the same siumple dac like fiio. Like Your phone, like anything that plays digital music. ANd there is no need for speakers with separate "professional" amp. My old god damn creative speakers from 2001 are so loud that I never listen to them past 50%. And they are clear all the way. And they costed 200$.
Hate to shit on you again but if you really think a phone DAC is comparable to a a FiiO and is comparable to more expensive DAC's then realistically, you should just leave this thread. Ya a 500 dollar DAC and comparable amp is going to sound the same as your FiiO when you're using low grade stuff speakers/headphones. Ya your Koss and whatever may sound good but they're not comparable to headphones that cost a larger dollar amount than what you can afford.
Loud and clear isn't the only thing that the speakers need to be able to do, the fact that....nevermind, I'm not even going to explain this because you apparently still don't get it lol
Are you ok with your sound? Are you ok with your setup? Wonderful, go grab your music and your headphones and enjoy whatever the fuck you want with them, but numerous times you try playing the "nothing expensive sounds better than what I have" because you simply can't afford it or don't have the available options to actually test the stuff out.
Breezer_ wrote:
Kc go some audio hifi store which has genelec speakers there with proper music that is recorded flawlessy, report me back if there is difference compared to those creative fart cans or 50 dollar headphones.
Absolutely hilarious stuff in this thread lately.
He's been like that ever since I started this thread. See's other people with cool toys and buys shit in his budget which is fine but starts talking down hardware that's out of his means as useless because he's never heard a setup people put hundreds into. Cause you know, Koss Pro's totally hold a candle to anything Sennheister, AKG, Beyerdynamics, Mad Dogs, V-MODA etc put out.
Should probably throw out my Audioengine bookshelves and go get a set of those Corsair speakers since they obviously sound the same.
This page was pretty epic, Fisk and I trolled the hell out of him, then he didn't understand the use of having speaker stands to get smaller speakers more ear level and called them "retarded" lol
If he'd just ask questions about the significance of stuff no one would give a damn and would love to help him, but he constantly blurts out bullshit he thinks he knows about because his lack of understanding lol
Xonar U5 or U7 worth it? I have a chance to get one of these in a trade probably.
Not sure if this 5.1 or 7.1 nonsense will limit the other features/sound quality on these.
Eh if you have the ability to actually get distance between you and the speakers to get a real surround sound effect vs putting all the speakers on your desk like most people do.
Why do you need some distance?
With my 7.1 PC speaker (teufel G 7.1) set I had no problem with surround sound and all speakers were more less with reaching distance. I dont see how it would be different from stereo, except you have more sources. In fact I'd say to due to acoustics, e.g. problematic early reflections, close positioning may help actually.
Wait... what do you mean by all speakers on your desk? Who sits inside a round table?
Eh if you have the ability to actually get distance between you and the speakers to get a real surround sound effect vs putting all the speakers on your desk like most people do.
I'm only gonna use it for headphones as it still is a DAC/AMP. Just the extra channels that I don't need really, but I guess if I don't have to really pay money for it then it shouldn't be that bad?
Well it's kinda an added bonus, like buying a receiver for two channels but has built in WiFi, features sell. You'll still have a better amp and dac in it. Personal opinion though, check out HT Omega, they make same really nice sound cards.
Eh if you have the ability to actually get distance between you and the speakers to get a real surround sound effect vs putting all the speakers on your desk like most people do.
I'm only gonna use it for headphones as it still is a DAC/AMP. Just the extra channels that I don't need really, but I guess if I don't have to really pay money for it then it shouldn't be that bad?
Why do you need some distance?
With my 7.1 PC speaker (teufel G 7.1) set I had no problem with surround sound and all speakers were more less with reaching distance. I dont see how it would be different from stereo, except you have more sources. In fact I'd say to due to acoustics, e.g. problematic early reflections, close positioning may help actually.
Wait... what do you mean by all speakers on your desk? Who sits inside a round table?
typically to get the effects of surround sound you need distance between you and the speakers so you get better directional sound. IE your rear speakers should actually be behind you but yet people put them on the outside corners of their desks defeating the whole point of using surround sound. Same reason those "surround sound" headphones are a joke. There's no distance between your ears and the different drivers for your ears to distinguish the direction the sound is coming from, you get the same effect using a better pair of stereo headphones. Point of having rear speakers is if someone is behind you running/shooting, you want to hear the sounds coming from behind you, not off to the sides or in front of you.
Flip side to that though, sitting your computer up for actual surround sound can be a pain in the ass due to desk positioning and actually finding a place to mount your speakers.
Whenever I see someone talking about surround sound speakers for their computers, they almost always do this.
Is it their only option, maybe, better than nothing but it's far from optimal and defeats the purpose. If you're hearing your rear sounds coming from your sides or in front of you, why have surround sound at all.
In a cinema setup normally you only have rear speakers If you have a 7.x setup. The surrounds in 5.1 are supposed to be beside or just slightly behind you. That also means you can keep the "60° degree rule" between all speakers (except the center).
Obviously Ill agree that your picture shows a suboptimal setup and I now understand what you are talking about, but I dont think the distance is a problem, the angle is. (and the height of the speakers, and the speakers themselfs )
And of course surround setups are always a pain in the ass. Stereo speakers cause enough problems as they are the higher standards you apply, and it only gets worse with more speakers.
In a cinema setup normally you only have rear speakers If you have a 7.x setup. The surrounds in 5.1 are supposed to be beside or just slightly behind you. That also means you can keep the "60° degree rule" between all speakers (except the center).
Obviously Ill agree that your picture shows a suboptimal setup and I now understand what you are talking about, but I dont think the distance is a problem, the angle is. (and the height of the speakers, and the speakers themselfs )
And of course surround setups are always a pain in the ass. Stereo speakers cause enough problems as they are the higher standards you apply, and it only gets worse with more speakers.
Well when I meant distance I didn't mean like all the away across the room, but like you agreed on, I'm referring to setups like in the picture and people investing in the whole surround sound thing with speakers and all that but not setting them up properly, which again, being computer speakers it can be difficult.
I have experimented with adapting my surround setup for both HDTV and PC monitor use. It mainly involved spreading L/R channels wide enough to accommodate both the TV/couch and PC/desk positions in the middle. Then I just switched between different channel level/speaker distances to compensate for the offset in central listening position. Obviously I had to reposition the center speaker every time as well
It's not really as much work as it sounds, maybe less than a minute to make the switch and it worked really well. In the end I stopped doing it because I didn't like the positioning of the "desktop mode" and available furniture didn't allow for a lot of creativity. With some more effort and planning one could come up with a nice setup that works, but in the end it's still a whole lot easier to simply relocate your butt to the couch position
Thats I problem I dont really deal with. My room is modeled around the speakers and TV. So even if I am working at home, its in a stereo triangle with a big screen
Of course i know that isn't acceptable to most.
At some point I would like to use baffle walls (speakers are one with the wall, removing one reflective surface from the equation). So basically a complete home cinema and I would still make that my primary PC room
Also I noticed with my current speaker, every cm and degree in positioning counts. So moving them is out of the questions, as I need several minutes for just 2 speakers.
Also I noticed with my current speaker, every cm and degree in positioning counts. So moving them is out of the questions, as I need several minutes for just 2 speakers.
That should make a difference with any speaker you use, high grade or low grade.
The general rule of thumb is that triangle you speak of above. If you're 4ft from your left speaker, you wanna be the same distance from your right, then the two speakers should also be the same distance apart to get that triangle.
As far as the positioning goes, you wanna start with them so that when you look at the speaker straight on, you see only the face of the speaker, not the sides. That'll give you your starting point in positioning. Some people like it right there but some speakers have a sweet spot with slightly turning them in or out (called toe in toe out if you ever see it referenced on an article). Most of that is the tweeter which was actually talked about on like page 3 I think. Tweeters have a very small cone of sound projection unlike the woofer or the subwoofer (which is omnidirectional), which is why the whole having the speaker facing directly at you applies so your ears are within that cone projection, which also helps having them ear level so you're getting all those little details.
Not everyone wants to spend time doing that and likes the way their speakers are set up but for those who like setting things up "correctly" (which is also based on user opinion duh) the triangle and distance part is a great starting point.
I only noticed a small change in detail having the speakers facing directly at me, you'll hear the highs change a bit when changing the direction but setting up that triangle and having the tweeters ear level or at least pointing at your ears was the biggest change. Distance from me to the speaker didnt' seem to matter as much as having them the correct spacing in between them to get a better stereo effect.
Again though, that's just for people who want the most out of their setup and has the patience to dick around with moving shit, and if you even have the room, adding a center channel makes it a bit more, room needy
Also I noticed with my current speaker, every cm and degree in positioning counts. So moving them is out of the questions, as I need several minutes for just 2 speakers.
That should make a difference with any speaker you use, high grade or low grade.
You say that... but I've had the pleasure on playing around with a friends speakers. I tried to really home in on a sweet spot to see what they were capable of. I didn't notice much of a difference. Then I just shuffled them around by as much as 10 cm while listening ... and nope, still nothing. Naturally I couldn't localize sounds. I just silently gave up on those. No idea what was wrong there.
SpykeZ wrote:
The general rule of thumb is that triangle you speak of above. If you're 4ft from your left speaker, you wanna be the same distance from your right, then the two speakers should also be the same distance apart to get that triangle.
Yup, or in other words an equiliteral triangle (60° for all angles) between you and both speakers. I use a wooden bar to align the speakers and a triangle ruler to turn them correctly (30° to the bar)
SpykeZ wrote:
As far as the positioning goes, ...
And since you've started... You can't just put speakers wherever you want. The room plays a heavy role for sound and what you hear depends on the room, your position and the speakers position. Also there is no obvious way to tell where the best position is, you will have to try, which can also be quite time consuming. There are some pointers one can try to follow though... like acoustic symmetry (similar geometry and materials on both sides is favorable) with respect to the room. At some level acoustic treatment in the form of absorbers/resonators/diffusers become essential as well.
SpykeZ wrote:
Distance from me to the speaker didnt' seem to matter as much as having them the correct spacing in between them to get a better stereo effect.
That has a different effect. Your distance is kind of a dial for how much the room affects the sound. It can give an impression of a bigger but more diffuse sound stage in my experience and as far as I understand is normal. Im sitting close to avoid it, because my room is not exactly symmetric.
Also I noticed with my current speaker, every cm and degree in positioning counts. So moving them is out of the questions, as I need several minutes for just 2 speakers.
That should make a difference with any speaker you use, high grade or low grade.
You say that... but I've had the pleasure on playing around with a friends speakers. I tried to really home in on a sweet spot to see what they were capable of. I didn't notice much of a difference. Then I just shuffled them around by as much as 10 cm while listening ... and nope, still nothing. Naturally I couldn't localize sounds. I just silently gave up on those. No idea what was wrong there.
SpykeZ wrote:
The general rule of thumb is that triangle you speak of above. If you're 4ft from your left speaker, you wanna be the same distance from your right, then the two speakers should also be the same distance apart to get that triangle.
Yup, or in other words an equiliteral triangle (60° for all angles) between you and both speakers. I use a wooden bar to align the speakers and a triangle ruler to turn them correctly (30° to the bar)
SpykeZ wrote:
As far as the positioning goes, ...
And since you've started... You can't just put speakers wherever you want. The room plays a heavy role for sound and what you hear depends on the room, your position and the speakers position. Also there is no obvious way to tell where the best position is, you will have to try, which can also be quite time consuming. There are some pointers one can try to follow though... like acoustic symmetry (similar geometry and materials on both sides is favorable) with respect to the room. At some level acoustic treatment in the form of absorbers/resonators/diffusers become essential as well.
SpykeZ wrote:
Distance from me to the speaker didnt' seem to matter as much as having them the correct spacing in between them to get a better stereo effect.
That has a different effect. Your distance is kind of a dial for how much the room affects the sound. It can give an impression of a bigger but more diffuse sound stage in my experience and as far as I understand is normal. Im sitting close to avoid it, because my room is not exactly symmetric.
Guess I shouldn't have used the term "should make a difference". Cause in reality, I noticed a difference with my bookshelf speakers for the small movements but my Polks out in the livingroom didn't make any difference at all.
lol you got me on the triangle, I just used a measuring tape to get it as close as possible, you may be more patient than me
I'd be more worried about the room acoustics etc if I had my own house, I live in an apartment so I have to work with the cards that I'm dealt Would love better rooms for what nots but eh, some day maybe.
I do however get an amazing sound stage with my current speaker setup out in the living room for movies. Can usually place where everything is and has been a few times I've heard stuff and thought it was coming from outside or somewhere in the apartment. Shit's the reason I pulled my fucking neck muscle. Was watching a movie or a show the other day and heard something I didn't realize was coming from the speakers and was laying down and lifted my head up to look and RRIIIIIIP, there goes my neck muscle, haven't been able to look to the right without hurting like an asshole for a week now
lol you got me on the triangle, I just used a measuring tape to get it as close as possible, you may be more patient than me
I was just pissed off at the slightly off center sound and was questioning my hearing.
Or even more annoying because not as obvious to solve is something else. You can get a centered in-phase and off-balanced out-of-phase sound! Now thats aggravating! Apparently has something to do with the angle of the speakers, hence the triangle ruler.
I have examples of what I mean. They do not work with normal headphones. Perhaps with some HRTF, but I have not tested that. So for now I'd say speakers required.
And as warning: Maybe this makes you more sensitive to certain sound stage problems.
This is a "nice" yet horrifying example of "music" that shows some insane ouf-of-phase craziness. Seriously this is horrible!
Her voice sounds weird most of the time, but starting a 0:29 I think you should have a more or less centered voice. To me it sounds like its circling slightly around the back of my neck. Creepy.
This can be likable, depending on taste (japanese non-gangsta hiphop?). Just at 0:51 one guy is talking to the right of your right speaker and the answer should come from the left of your left speaker. Meaning the sounds come from outside your triangle. Surely they're supposed to sound balanced/symmetrical, however the different voices make it harder to determine correctness
Whatever the fuck this is supposed to be in the beginning shows off this effect as well. FFVIII though \o/
SpykeZ wrote:
I'd be more worried about the room acoustics etc if I had my own house, I live in an apartment so I have to work with the cards that I'm dealt Would love better rooms for what nots but eh, some day maybe.
I just put a lot of rock wool near the corners and some glass wool next to the speakers (to dampen everything from the speakers to the side of the room). The first helped the bass and I think the second did as well actually, however I didn't measure for the glasswool.
SpykeZ wrote:
haven't been able to look to the right without hurting like an asshole for a week now
And you dont have problems with the bass with the speakers that close to the wall and only one in a corner even?
the rear ports have directional baffles
The cone is closed on the speaker side so what's coming out hits the cone and directs it out to the sides, it looks gimmicky but I've put these as close to the walls as I could get them and it doesn't get boomy at all
I think the design was meant for reduced port noise overall, plus I also have a port in the front where most of the air comes out of.
The Audioengine P4 monitors i got have front ports that were really well done, I've got them almost touching the wall and they don't boom at all.
Could you try to explain that baffle thing again. I dont get it ... what is for (port noise reduction)? what does it do or does it do it?
Btw, you can't hear the port on my speakers either and there is no "technology" behind that. I would know... I glued the wood together
I do get the feeling that some technology in speakers goes into making them smaller. My speakers are space wasters, but really simple.
Well the booming part is actually kind of interesting thing as far as I understand. There is this notion floating around on the internet, that speakers must not be placed close to walls. But if you look further you will better explanations about this topic and you may find the advice that says you should generally either put speakers very close to the wall or far away. Put speakers very close to the wall and especially bass should be amplified, but not necessarily ruined, because low frequency waves are pretty long. Just put them somewhat close to the wall, and you will have cancellation and what not. Really far away may get the speaker sound closer to how it would in the open... the room still plays a huge role though.
Anyway my speakers are as close to the wall is gets as well. However with 50cm depth and 30° angle to the wall that is quite some depth. I put some rockwool behind them ... its the solution for everything... suffocate someone with that stuff and you couldn't even hear them
Maybe it's not what it's designed to do but I was under the understanding that the boss ports (the holes) are what caused the boomy sound when too close to the walls which was why some bookshelf speakers come with the ports in the front instead of the back. So they thing on the back has a cone that kinda goes inside the port hole so when the air comes out it's pushed to the side instead of back up against the wall.
I could be completely wrong in all of that though. The inner workings of speakers is beyond my comprehension lol.
You ever seen inside of a Polk Audio LSi speaker? Fuck all that shit lol.
I believe bass reflex ports are not at all the cause for boomy bass in connection with the wall. The only thing that may cause trouble is when the port is extremely close to the wall so that the air flow obstructed.
Walls simply add gain to lower frequency, no matter if the sound was produced by the driver directly or with help by a reflex port.
Which is why I would think that one of your speakers should have a higher bass output since it has an additional wall next to it. But if you dont notice any adverse effects... then maybe its not too relevant
Bass reflex has an adverse effect on sound quality in general simply by design, though. Which is why some people are strictly against them. I have some issues with bass, but those issues do at least partially stem from the fucking room. Measurements showed that. Still, at some point I want a system that manages without them, just because
I dont even get the design of the polka speaker. Where does the smaller port in the back lead to? Is the tiny hole below the crossover (frequenzweiche?) supposed to be the connection to that? I dont get it
Unlike closed box loudspeakers, which are substantially airtight, a bass reflex system has an opening called a port or vent, generally consisting of a pipe or duct (typically circular or rectangular cross section). The air mass in this opening resonates with the "springiness" of the air inside the enclosure in exactly the same fashion as the air in a bottle resonates when a current of air is directed across the opening. The frequency at which the box/port system resonates, known as the Helmholtz resonance, depends upon the effective length and cross sectional area of the duct, the internal volume of the enclosure, and the speed of sound in air.
When this vent air mass/box air springiness resonance is so chosen as to lie lower in frequency than the natural resonance frequency of the bass driver, an interesting phenomenon happens: the backwave of the bass driver sound emission is inverted in polarity for the frequency range between the two resonances. Since the backwave is already in opposite polarity with the front wave, this inversion brings the two emissions in phase (although the vent emission is lagging by one wave period) and therefore they reinforce each other.
The two opening's at the bottom are the bass ports. Why they need the rear one when it's all blocked off with foam is beyond me but hey, that's why they're one of the top brands....they know what they're doing...I don't lmao
I know they're the bass ports. The foam is also not blocking sound completely. That small hole below the crossover must be the path for the sound... Or this speaker isn't actually symmetrical and the other half makes sense of it
If you want tigther bass, smoother treble and a better sound stage, replace your shitty power cable with these $500 dollar or more expensive power cables!!
What a stupid pice of shit. Yeah give me those glowing circles
There are already plenty of good sounding "pain free" headphones but it all comes down to personal feelings.
I think px100ii and koss porta pro are easily comfortable at least for first few hours.
5080 | ps5 pro
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Would love better rooms for what nots but eh, some day maybe.
