In direct comparison to your videos it does sound awful though.
Which makes me wonder how good (sound fidelity, not the practical use) CMSS or alternatives really are or if a really good 7.x speaker setup wouldn't be better (and a much better money sink ), but maybe I should go to the audio thread for that.
Btw, should it matter to you guys, I enjoy your videos
@Werelds
Did you turn on Vsync just for the recording or do you always play with Vsync?
Neither. I don't use V-Sync, neither when playing nor when recording. I've set an FPS limit.
Nui wrote:
In direct comparison to your videos it does sound awful though.
Which makes me wonder how good (sound fidelity, not the practical use) CMSS or alternatives really are or if a really good 7.x speaker setup wouldn't be better (and a much better money sink ), but maybe I should go to the audio thread for that.
Awful how though? My sound is just a surround mix, which is why some things sound different. If you listen to the M4 though, that sounds the same in my video as it does in Pax' (on my Mac atm so it's not my soundcard at work again ).
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Btw, should it matter to you guys, I enjoy your videos
That's the point of them
Edit: just noticed I forgot to sync the audio in the clip at 6:22
WHOOPS!
Or maybe I just have hacks to make my M4 silent
Edit #2: rendering another video with 4 clips that were meant to go into the one above. Not sure how I missed them
First clip in this video will show you why binaural audio rocks though
In direct comparison to your videos it does sound awful though.
Which makes me wonder how good (sound fidelity, not the practical use) CMSS or alternatives really are or if a really good 7.x speaker setup wouldn't be better (and a much better money sink ), but maybe I should go to the audio thread for that.
Awful how though? My sound is just a surround mix, which is why some things sound different. If you listen to the M4 though, that sounds the same in my video as it does in Pax' (on my Mac atm so it's not my soundcard at work again ).
First, there is clearly some bias on my part at work then. Jeesus. I can't trust myself as far as I can throw myself (disregarding the "myself", is this a german saying? )
Anyway. CMSS or Dolby Headphones (I have more experience with that for music) sound muffled compared to the unprocessed sound. Then again, to a degree that should happen, considering they do decrease some higher frequencies as part of the HRTF as far as I understand.
Basically, I would like to compare good headphones and several magnitudes higher in price sound system with acoustic treatment. Compared in sound fidelity and the practical purpose of locating shit. Obviously with the speaker system a microphone becomes another issue
Ah, right. Yeah, so that is actually an interesting thing.
First of all, a good 5.1/7.1 speaker setup will obviously sound clearer than CMSS-3D or DH will. For music it doesn't make a difference, if you have a stereo input they won't touch the signal. For actual surround signals you're right, they do mess with the signal a bit.
However, this is where the headphones come in. I currently use the AKG K7XX, before I used an HD 598. Both open back and this is where you get the big difference. In a closed pair of cans, the reflection will cause what you call "muffled".
Guess that's why it doesn't sound bad to me, the only difference I hear is the distance drop-off obviously
That said, I personally still prefer CMSS-3D over DH. I find it a bit more accurate.
For gaming I'll always recommend an open pair of cans coupled with an X-Fi or Xonar DGX. I find headphones more immersive than speakers and an open pair only takes that even further because of the open soundstage. And it doesn't have to be an expensive pair, Superlux' HD668B's for example are bloody amazing for the money (they're only like €40 nowadays).
In the first clip, note how I "lock on" to him after I get out of window (the first time you hear him scoping to my left people were talking so I wasn't sure if I heard it right). And this is not a fluke, fable and Vaifan will tell you that I do this all the time; also using it to troll my enemies by running around obstacles
I can really pinpoint the direction of most sounds in "clock" degrees. I can tell the difference between my 5 and 7 for example. Or 11 and 12. And in most cases, I can also judge the distance pretty well, so I know where on the map they are (when it's the same surface; obviously with different surfaces it's even easier ).
That's most sounds and most situations. There are cases where the game just produces shit audio; notably footsteps within 10-15m or so do not come out nicely - beyond that distance it's fine though. The surround signal for them at close range is pretty bad
Personally, I wasn't very comfortable with using Dolby Headphones after a while because it distorts the sound by quite a bit. I don't have any personal experience with the Creative equivalent, but from comparison videos it was obvious that it sounds different from DH, but still distorts the sound enough.
For "competitive" scene I imagine the trade-off is easy enough to make, especially in CSGO where the audio itself is nothing special. Generally speaking though, it's usually a good idea to steer clear of DSPs like that if you invested some money into a decent audio setup. You buy high-end headphones and invest in a DAC or what have you, and then just mess it all up anyway
Some developers put some effort in designing a good stereo output for headphones in games, which reduces the need for 3rd party solutions, but not many can compare to a proper surround setup in providing good sound positioning.
A surround speaker setup has its own disadvantages though, in that you need to crank the volume up to catch all those smaller details that matter. Headphones are much more reliable when it comes to catching that stray footstep of a guy trying to flank you.
First of all, a good 5.1/7.1 speaker setup will obviously sound clearer than CMSS-3D or DH will.
Nice. Thanks for not ruining my dream haha
But it was my line of thinking as well.
Werelds wrote:
For music it doesn't make a difference, if you have a stereo input they won't touch the signal.
Actually I only used dolby headphones for foobar and stereo music to move the sound stage out of my head! I hate that about headphones. The sound gets muffled and with Dolby HP, in comparison. But as I said, I believe its part of the head related transfer function. High frequencies just don't travel around your head without getting dampened along the way. So in actual fairness a direct comparison may just be a bad idea and doesn't do anything justice. Longer periods of testing either one would be the proper method. Still I did notice other issues I can't even describe. "Distortion" as MinderMast says would be the closest and I also find it in your videos
I only have open HP (Sennheiser HD 595). They seem okay to me. I just prefer my speakers greatly.
Btw your cmss video "works" on my stereo speakers as well, to a degree. Sounds that should come from behind just come from the side instead (well outside the speaker/listener triangle).
The only time I had the chance to use CMSS-3D I had a cute surround sound setup and I only went for a creative card to get bass management. So I didn't use it for headphones much if at all.
Is there no open accessible software for this or does one really need to buy a soundcard? Im currently quite happy with bit perfect sound over my GPU to my AVR...
Werelds wrote:
Guess that's why it doesn't sound bad to me, the only difference I hear is the distance drop-off obviously
The way is post is going, it seems likely that some of these alleged "problems" are no problems at all and obviously it helps you so fuck the problems
Werelds wrote:
In the first clip, note how I "lock on" to him after I get out of window
After you got out the window, the sound also came from the left at some point. Why is that? Its like his sound got reflected from the wall to the left, which could happen in real life, but is that a thing in gaming already when the scene is simple enough?!? Usually the sound just travels through walls (again, first clip), which of course is wrong, but a proper wave propagation simulation is a bit much to ask for . Does anyone ask for that, actually? I mean I would if it seemed feasible.
A surround speaker setup has its own disadvantages though, in that you need to crank the volume up to catch all those smaller details that matter. Headphones are much more reliable when it comes to catching that stray footstep of a guy trying to flank you.
I would say the greatest disadvantage with speakers (in general actually) is the interaction with the room. For a sound system to compete on all levels with headphones you need an acoustically treated room (requiring money and expertise) and the speakers themselves are already more costly at that point and you'd want more than two speakers (at least six, woofers and center are optional I'd say).
I only have open HP (Sennheiser HD 595). They seem okay to me. I just prefer my speakers greatly.
It is a matter of preference for most people. Same way some people prefer headphones that have a stronger bass presence. I personally don't
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The way is post is going, it seems likely that some of these alleged "problems" are no problems at all and obviously it helps you so fuck the problems
Well, I don't use this (or my soundcard at all) when listening to music, so then in a game like CS, I'll trade off a slight distortion for the positional sound. The positional sound I find far more immersive
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After you got out the window, the sound also came from the left at some point. Why is that?
No, he was between my 10 and 11. Had he moved 1 step further, he would've seen me
I'll do that bit with X-Ray turned on later, so you see his positioning, maybe the audio will "sync up" a bit more for you then. Same thing when I first move into drop, first time I hear him scoping. The sound is a 100% left signal, so 9 o'clock and when you look at the demo, he really is exactly at my 9
The front sounds should work fine through speakers indeed. It's 4 to 8 o'clock that come out way better with headphones. While you can tell the difference on speakers, it doesn't sound as if it's coming from behind "naturally" (I don't know how else to explain it ). With headphones it does.
@ Snify: a soundcard has a DAC though; and the one on the X-Fi is a good one that was used in lots of mid-range standalone DAC units back then. It's the surrounding electronics that make a DAC unit good or bad though, and those are fantastic on the X-Fi Ti. In fact, the EMU20K2 was by far the best DSP back then, mostly thanks to Creative's own resampling algorithm which is near lossless. It still is only a single DAC though, so the output could certainly be better. But it is no worse than a $120 DAC unit, it holds up against those just fine.
And its more expensive sibling, the Titanium HD is so good that you'd have to get into the $500 range for a comparable standalone DAC unit
The part this X-Fi is a bit weak at is the amp, not the DAC.
After you got out the window, the sound also came from the left at some point. Why is that?
No, he was between my 10 and 11. Had he moved 1 step further, he would've seen me
I'll do that bit with X-Ray turned on later, so you see his positioning, maybe the audio will "sync up" a bit more for you then. Same thing when I first move into drop, first time I hear him scoping. The sound is a 100% left signal, so 9 o'clock and when you look at the demo, he really is exactly at my 9
I actually agree with the 10/11 thing, but it sounded wrong to me... probably because I didn't expect to actually be there, so the x-ray thing would be awesome
The left signal I heard fine.
Werelds wrote:
The front sounds should work fine through speakers indeed. It's 4 to 8 o'clock that come out way better with headphones. While you can tell the difference on speakers, it doesn't sound as if it's coming from behind "naturally" (I don't know how else to explain it ). With headphones it does.
I posted a clip in the audio thread that does the "behind" thing for me, but indeed it doesnt really sound natural and it doesnt really put it much behind, its rather in my neck. Though to be honest, I dont find that I can tell distance at all in these videos, just direction. Maybe that is what confused me?
To the side however I find speakers can do that. Basically when your video wants 5 or 7, my speakers do 3 or 9. That even makes some sense. The speakers are in front of me, so in a way it makes sense, that the positioning gets dragged along with them.
Mind you, my speakers have a good driver for high frequencies, I sit in the near field removing some problems with room acoustics and the my precision for positioning my speaker seems crazy to most (but I've gone over this in the audio thread)
@Werelds
Well, the quality of the soundcard was not really the issue.
I am talking about a situation where an audio enthusiast would invest a notable sum of money into top-grade audio hardware. I would assume people who do that are very "picky" about their audio fidelity. Considering just how subtle the difference is at that level, applying such heavy DSP effects kinda defeats the purpose of that investment.
On the subject of expanding the soundstage, the DAC I have (I mean DAC as the whole stand-alone device) has a "3D" switch which works on the analogue level. It being analogue supposed to make it less "destructive" for audio quality.
Now I am not gonna say that the same can't be achieved with a proper DSP setup, but it does indeed give more pleasing results that what I had with DH or Realtek's solution. So there are other options to consider here.
With that said, CMSS and (less so, but still) DH are more about mixing down 5.1/7.1 audio into stereo to create more accurate positional audio than simply expanding the soundstage.
Now to get back on topic. I have always found CSGO positional audio to be very unreliable in some cases. Way too often did I have the source of the sound being just off the center of my crosshair, but the resulting audio made it sound like it was directly to my left or right (or at least much more to the side and closer than it really was). I don't know if they have tweaked it since then, but I found myself being thrown off by it often enough in the past.
my precision for positioning my speaker seems crazy to most (but I've gone over this in the audio thread)
Speaker positioning is underrated badly
So many people who have speakers on their desk (just below ear level in general). Raise them to ear height you silly people!
MinderMast wrote:
With that said, CMSS and (less so, but still) DH are more about mixing down 5.1/7.1 audio into stereo to create more accurate positional audio than simply expanding the soundstage.
It's this that I value the most. There aren't that many external DACs/Amps that do Dolby Headphone at what I'd consider a reasonable price. Most are focused on stereo only.
Like I said, it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make for the immersion it gives me
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