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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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 Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:41 Post subject: A bit confused, why can't i select 10bpc output on my 1070? |
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Found the issue. Can't select 10bit as long as my monitor is also connected (since i guess it can't display 10bit on tv and 8bit on monitor at the same time. As soon as i disabled it, 10bit worked! Now, the question remains if 4:4:4 10bit will be a possibility in the future via HDMI between the pascal gpu and the tv(via updated software or something, since it's only a bandwith limitation and nothing else, unless they wanna be assholes about it and make you buy their new tvs/gpus).
Got the GPU connected to a 10bit panel (the KS7502, US's equivalent is KS8500), yet i can only select 8bpc/12bpc from the NVCPL no matter what hz i set for 4k (either 30fps or 60), doesn't matter.
Is this normal? I see a massive confusion as in people saying only quadro cards can output 10bit in windows desktop, whereas others say that they can select 10bpc on their pascal cards.
Max confused.
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
Last edited by russ80 on Wed, 1st Feb 2017 07:35; edited 4 times in total
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:44 Post subject: |
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only works with dp connections imho, and might be only available if only one display is connect (change it then and reconnect other displays, should stay at 10bpc)
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:47 Post subject: |
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Yeah but, can't connect dp to my tv so... am i missing something?
Also from what i read the 10bit 4:4:4 4k hdr isn't possible now due to hdmi limitation. Anyone got a clue if the new cables will be enough to "upgrade" the signal or it's also the fact that the tv will need to be compliant (so in other words only 2017 models?)
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
Last edited by russ80 on Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:50; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:49 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:50 Post subject: |
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which color settings you want to use?
edit: ah you added it
i doubt that tv can do 10bit 4:4:4, check the manual please. only found a romanian site for the ks7502
Last edited by Janz on Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:52; edited 2 times in total
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:51 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: | | What HDMI Cable version? |
No idea, but can do 4:4:4 4k 60 fps + hdr but 8bit only. Tried dropping to 4:2:0 same options are available.
| Janz wrote: | | which color settings you want to use? |
4k + 10bit , tried 30hz as well still won't come up, only got 8bpc and 12bpc.
Also janz, the 7502 is basically the US's KS8500. So doubt it wouldn't be able to.
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:53 Post subject: |
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Are you sure it is native 10 bit panel and not 8 bit with dithering.
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:53 Post subject: |
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| Breezer_ wrote: | | Are you sure it is native 10 bit panel and not 8 bit with dithering. |
It's the KS8500, so should be yes. Any way to test this myself?
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:56 Post subject: |
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checked the manual, my gipsy isnt good (its non existent) but the tables speak for itself
10bit is only possible with YCbCr 4 2 2 and YCbCr 4 2 0
not with any rgb setting at all!
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 19:59 Post subject: |
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Yeah, that's basically a limitation of the HDMI 2.0 since all samsung tvs have that:
Problem is, i can't select 10bit even if i change to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0, 30hz 60hz same thing. Also reading conflicting reports about this being a limitation from NVIDIA to desktop only, as it only works in fullscreen so they can push their quadro cards for desktop usage.
Think i'll install alien isolation (since it's supposed to have a 10bit mode) and check that out.
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 20:07 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 20:10 Post subject: |
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But pax, issue is current HDMI doesn't support 4:4:4 4k 10bit on any TV, since there are no hdmi 2.1cables yet to allow that much data transfer yet.
My issue is i can't even select that particular 4:2:0 10bit , can only do 12bpc or 8.
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 20:16 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Jan 2017 20:21 Post subject: |
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No probs.
Using this test via USB stick seems to confirm it's 10bit but.. not sure how to fix actual PC output from my 1070:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2269338-10-bit-gradient-test-patterns.html
Shows top layer being 10bit (perfectly smooth), lower layer 8bit (gradient like in steps)..
Still doesn't help me though >.<
Hope Alien Isolation will clarify my issue.
Even RTINGS says this when checking the TV review (mouse over 10bit)..
| Quote: | What it is: Number of bits per pixel to represent a specific color. Note: we consider 8-bit with dithering to be equivalent to 10-bit, as long as the 10-bit gradient looks smooth.
When it matters: HDR content like UHD Blu-ray players. Won't matter for cable TV, regular Blu-ray movies, video game consoles or content displayed from a Windows PC. Those are limited to 8-bit color. |
Huh..
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
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russ80
Posts: 4679
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 07:34 Post subject: |
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Ha! Fixed it, check first post. Issue was my monitor also being an active display and obviously being 8bit only fucking up the 10bit output for my tv. Seems you can't display 8bit and 10bit at the same time on different displays.
Main PC : I7 12700, MSI Ventus RTX 4090 24gb, Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED
Laptop : I5 4200H @ 3400mhz boost, GTX 850m 2gb Vram DDR3, 4gb RAM DDR3
Derpsole : Playstation 5 disc edition, Ninty Switcherino
TV+audio: LG CX 65" / Sonos ARC + SL ones + Sonos sub 3
VR Headset: Meta quest 2 airlinked
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 13:19 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: | | Because who cares about 10 or 12 bit whent the input signal is 4:2:2 or 4:2:0? |
4:2:2 just means the horizontal resolution of the color plane is halved (i.e. for 1920x1080, Y/grayscale plane will be 1920x1080, CbCr/color plane will be 960x1080), which is virtually unnoticeable for motion video. Colors (as in color range) will still be preserved, so 10-bit or 12-bit depth is definitely more important (with a capable display) than horisontal res.
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Nui
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Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 14:33 Post subject: |
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10bpc is selectable on 8bit+FRC panels. Most "10bit" TV panels, are actually 8bit+FRC.
Only exception are some G-Sync monitors.
Apparently there is a conflict with the G-Sync module on some 8bit+frc IPS monitors, so they don't allow 10bpc output.
New G-Sync HDR module won't have that problem.
The 10bit mode in Alien Isolation - all it does is smooth the gradients.
You get the same effect in 8-bit by using Deband shader of ReShade.
Very useful shader, some games have inherent banding because of shitty programming and this helps everytime..
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 14:43 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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Nui
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Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 15:21 Post subject: |
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@ Shocktrooper
Higher bitdepth can sometimes be replaced with lower bitdeph plus dithering (if done well) without real losses.
Higher bitdepth will smooth gradients. I'd say thats their only function. However, Debanding is usually not the same as not loosing the precision/bitdepth in the first place and then dither it down to 8bit or whatever. But I guess there is a possibility that reshade does it correctly. Do you know if this is the case? I'd be very interested if it does.
If a video player does it, for example, there will be downsides to it, because you would need to reliably detect gradients to be smoothed, but just like denoising it will smooth out details it shouldn't.
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 15:33 Post subject: |
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@ Nui
https://github.com/crosire/reshade-shaders/blob/master/Shaders/Deband.fx
It works like the mpv/madVR shaders, a bit more customizable. Increasing iterations for better precision at the cost of performance. Increasing Threshold for more strength at the cost of fine details.
10-bit does more than just smoothen the gradients, it increases the amount of gradients that can be displayed from 256 to 1024. But software needs to be programmed for it. Alien 10bit does not make use of that. The HDR games should make use of that (so far: Obscure, Shadow Warrior 2 and RE7. Hitman and more come soon)
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Nui
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Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Feb 2017 16:27 Post subject: |
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Yeah I read some comparisons back then and as far as I know Alien only smooths the gradations.
It does not display any additional shades and does not make use of wider colour gamuts.
There wasn't even HDR when it came out.
I used the Deband shader in a couple of games, usually 48 threshold, 16 radius and 2 iterations gets rid of almost all artifacts. Only Eleusis and The Fall needed a stronger setting because these games have atrocious banding.
I switched back and forth multiple times to check for missing details, no issues.
The first 1.0 version of the shader really eliminated details but the 1.1 mpv ported algorithm does not seem to have that problem at low enough threshold values.
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Nui
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tried 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 as well as all hz options, didn't even bother with RGB.
. In madvr I actually don't use it, because it did seem to lose details.
