they still do not earn equal money for equal jobs in most areas, do not have access to management positions in most fields or are severely under-represented (even if you account for the loss of years through childbirth and upbringing), are the huge majority of rape-victims, face regular demeaning attitudes by sexists etc. pp.
and thats the reality of it. Yes, we live in a better world than 30 to 150 years ago because of the feminist struggle, but that is far from over yet.
Pointing out the massive over-representation of men in video games seems to be so threatening to some here, that they cant but sling insults. Just look at that other thread and your reaction here EVEN THOUGH no woman made any arguments here, you promptly called out "those whining whores" and also break it down again in your last post to be all about those whiney women, when the original poster and the video posted were cleary by men...
I'l try and weigh in on this topic as best I can, starting with this post.
Women don't earn equal pay - this is a huge can of worms, and I don't know enough about economics and sociology to make a point about it, but from what I read and understood, sexism is part of it, but not the only component, and in the past few years not the dominant reason behind this. I read many studies about it, too bored to list them all, but the most interesting was about who women in management tend to hire: they were more likely to hire men.
This study I think was done in the UK. Anyway, this is complex, much like the whole issue, but putting the blame on sexism is a good scapegoat, but if we want to actually solve this problem, then we have to put emotion away (from both sides), and really understand what's behind the problem (a myriad of causes, not just one). If we just want to bitch about the issue, without actually trying to solve it, then keep on blaming just sexism, but that will get us nowhere.
Funny thing, my company just got hired to do some work for a foundation, which is managed exclusively by women. They considered two companies. Mine, and another led by a woman. The other company had a better reputation, 8 years on ours in the market, same price, and one very talented (and good looking) woman at the helm (I worked with them a few years back, and got along great with them. The foundation chose my company for the work (I'm grateful, but I think they made the less optimal decision).
Underrepresentation in upper management - this is what irks me really. This is not a representation issue. You have politics for that. Companies are not a democracy, nor should they be. I'm very much for freedom of choice, when it comes down to who you hire to manage your money. You may chose based on anything really, if you make a bad choice, the company will suffer. Smart leaders will realize, that they should hire based on relevant skills, experience and team work capability. Nobody in higher positions, that I know (and I know a few) hires based on race/gender. They hire based on qualifications, especially the successful ones. If you interfere with this big brother style, it will lead to nowhere good.
If you try and solve this with quotas, then all of a sudden, you have made a big mistake. Quotas will make women compete with each other for the positions, and will not compete with everyone, just a sub segment. This has been tried with other groups, never has this led to anything good.
Rape - this is really a big problem, because rape is not about the sexual part only, it's about complete dominance over someone, it's a power and humiliation thing. This is why I'd punish rape way, way more severely. I honestly think rape needs to be punished with life in prison. Despicable.
Sexism - it's there, it's bad, more men do it than women, but we have to be careful where we draw the line. Jokes about men/women I think are not as harmful as some think.
This is layered, and I'd just like to point out some things about multiplayer games, and how people behave in the online space, and how female models would impact this.
FPS games are dominated by males, they are the ones more likely to play it by a wide margin, and these modern shooters are played mostly by male teenagers or young adults. It has happened a bazillion times now, to see a pattern, when someone in the FPS environment is identified as females: the population of the server breaks down in to three groups
Assholes, who immediately start picking on the girl player (you know the lines), virgin white knights, who think their "save the damsel in distress" mode has to be activated (these are probably on the same maturity level as the assholes), and then there are the silent minority, who continue playing like nothing happened.
Now, there's a reason many, many girl players wait to know the community of a server first, before telling their peers, that they are in fact a girl. They first want to make sure the environment won't react the way I described. I know very many female gamers, who never told the public they are females, because whilst they like the community, they still don't feel safe to do so - instead, they just tell a few people they know to be mature enough not to be affected in any way with this new knowledge.
This is the reality of how MP shooters work, and you know it! Finding a good server is hard work, especially for women.
Now then, there's the other thing, and many of you have pointed this out, it's an FPS, you don't really connect to your character, this is not an RPG (where the above mentioned situation is more complex and often more perverted).
So the relevant question is: why would males want to play a female character, if they are playing an FPS. Well, if they don't or most probably won't, then neither will most of the women, because it would just signal their gender to the population, and the shitstorm would start.
I have actually asked about female models in TF2, discussed this with women, and the vast majority I asked (in total around 30 people not much, I know) have said, that they like their characters to be male, because they feel on equal footing with men.
All in all, I think female models, if they are just mirrors, then it's a bad idea.
But there is a solution though, and I think this should be embraced: in a class based FPS, like TF2, half of the characters should be only male, half only female. This way, if someone wants to connect with the characters gender, they can chose such a class without others knowing, what gender they really are.
Very constructive Radicalus!
Edit: Except for the white knight part. If people behave like assholes, telling them that is a honest thing to do. Of course the name callers start to call you names then, see a pattern?
Quote:
I have actually asked about female models in TF2, discussed this with women, and the vast majority I asked (in total around 30 people not much, I know) have said, that they like their characters to be male, because they feel on equal footing with men.
Still wonder what women would prefer if the sexism wasn't so prevalent in this genre. The answer: "...they feel on equal footing with men", seems to conceal their true opinion.
Anyway something I ignored some posts earlier:
Nhiumewyn wrote:
I also watched Clockwork Orange, The Exorcist and Apocalypse Now at a rather young age, while in similar circumstances. And they didn't shocked me in the slightest, back then I never understood the nature of the prohibition.
Most parents have no insight on the intelligence of their children, specially when the children far surpass the intellect of their parents.
What makes you say it didn't shock you? It's normal that especially the 1st 2 movies would evoke strong emotional reactions.
Last edited by TSR69 on Mon, 13th Aug 2012 19:55; edited 1 time in total
Think its dependent on the person, I saw clockwork orange around 12-13, I guess. I thought it was "weird" but not shocking or emotional per se. Not saying I am a steel willed cold, human that nothing effects me and going "pfft that movie wasnt shit"...not saying it that way. Lots of thing cause emotion reactions in me, just nothing in that movie did..it was over and I had that "OK... that was a weird, quirky, and strange movie".
Just saying I think it depends on the person and what triggers emotions for them if that movie causes it.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Think its my lack of empathy on average that made it that way for me..it had nothing I could relate to personally, and I'm HORRIBLE at conveying genuine emotional concern for people if I cant relate/or I'm not directly affected.
I can understand WHY they feel they way they feel, and understand the cause and effect of the situation, but more in a "this is the situation, deduce how each party mostly like will react and figure out what they need to help with it"..and even be willing to help anyway I can. But as far as emotionally 'feeling' for them beyond "anything I can do to help, I know its got to suck" I cant do.
I can be a very caring person, but in a "help you out in need" type of way. not a "I feel your pain" type of way.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Hmm I afraid it is more complicated then that. First part of aforementioned movie the main character instilled me with disgust, fear and anger. The violence is shocking whether I can empathise with the victims or not, like the woman in the rape scene and her much older husband. At a young age one can't be desensitised by violence yet.
Btw for empathy one needs a good functioning cognitive ability.
Oh no, but always had that "its a movie, not real people" mentality for movies. So never get the 'drama, pain and sorrow' part of movies. I can enjoy the story for its depth and how engaging it is, but for the action scenes and the acting it may be 'realistic looking' but always had that "these are really good actors" poking around in the back of my mind.
Sort of like how I LOVE the ID channel the 'most evil' and shows like that. covering details and such of crimes and the reasons/motives/issues the person that did them had. But crime shows and movies bore me to death. One is engaging to me because its real, and actual story of real people. and the other is people playing the parts someone wrote for them to do.
And its not that I lack the ability for empathy, Just most the time its a choice I can make on if I want to think enough about the situation to form what to have empathy for. Parts of my past have somewhat 'trained' me (for better or worse) to be able to separate myself from situations most the time. have had experiences where the compassion of 'doing the right thing' and "getting involved with feelings during it" was conflicting outlooks.
The caring can still be there, having humanity towards those affected and willing to help them in anyway...just without the emotional attachment that comes with it unless I choose to "get involved that way".
Unless its very close to home for me. Then its automatic.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
I have tried to distance me from movies and TV series but I am not particularly good in it. Like keep trying to say to yourself: "These are just actors, this is not real." A good book or movie tends to drag me in completely and I can become overwhelmed by it.
Anyway I think that a lot of people don't get the meaning of empathy. They interpret it as sympathy. Empathy means the ability to place yourself in someone else's shoes, to try to feel and to understand what the other goes/went through. You can be perfectly capable in doing so and still be able to refuse to attach emotionally. In that BBC documentary I linked earlier, , they hire a 12 year old girl actor to sit on a corner of a street, looking abandoned. Most men don't even notice her, which I think is more poor cognition. Btw part 2 and 3 can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/user/IPviolator
This is a very nice video on Anita Sarkeesian and her Kickstarter project, no cursing, so I think even Lucypoo can handle it without his vein popping on his forehead.
This is a very nice video on Anita Sarkeesian and her Kickstarter project, no cursing, so I think even Lucypoo can handle it without his vein popping on his forehead.
He puts what I've been saying 100x better than I could.
Feminism is nothing more than a springboard for her own agenda, usage of it in nothing but the complete opposite way of the context it should be used in.
good find.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Wed, 19th Sep 2012 13:20; edited 1 time in total
Think its my lack of empathy on average that made it that way for me..it had nothing I could relate to personally, and I'm HORRIBLE at conveying genuine emotional concern for people if I cant relate/or I'm not directly affected.
I can understand WHY they feel they way they feel, and understand the cause and effect of the situation, but more in a "this is the situation, deduce how each party mostly like will react and figure out what they need to help with it"..and even be willing to help anyway I can. But as far as emotionally 'feeling' for them beyond "anything I can do to help, I know its got to suck" I cant do.
I can be a very caring person, but in a "help you out in need" type of way. not a "I feel your pain" type of way.
There are alot of your kind in the world. I really hate complaining about something to people like you. I instantly notice when my complaining doesn't hit solid ground so to say, and it just gets awkward to continue. I think i'm a good listener when people convey problems to me and i've always had it easy to imagine myself in others shoes. I've always thought it was the lack of imagination that made people like you unable to understand someones situation. Just think what would happen if this was you. Not really hard.
There are alot of your kind in the world. I really hate complaining about something to people like you. I instantly notice when my complaining doesn't hit solid ground so to say, and it just gets awkward to continue. I think i'm a good listener when people convey problems to me and i've always had it easy to imagine myself in others shoes. I've always thought it was the lack of imagination that made people like you unable to understand someones situation. Just think what would happen if this was you. Not really hard.
I completely admit I have a lack of it. This is why I didn't go a career route that required it, because then I would be faking it, defeating the purpose of doing it.
Its not a lack of imagination, its a bit of lack of compassion I think for those I don't know. unless its a situation where it cannot be solved without me, I tend to leave it be.
I think the difference that you might be failing to add, is if I knew you, complaining to me would be viable, and Id listen and care. I will do anything I can for you long as its bettering you or helping you out in some way.
As you are one of the few I 'care about'. Not that I DON'T care what happens to humanity as a whole, I do..just not on a personal 'get involved individually' way.
I also thinks its a bit of a reaction between the way I think and others. I tend to think most people get too emotional in decisions, so I stay out of it, while they think I don't get emotional enough.
Good example of why I dont...just this weekend, some lady in my neighborhoods dog was lost, and we live near a park. I was outside she stopped to ask "have you seen my dog it looks like this..." I stated no, but if I see it I will try to catch it for her, and bring it to her soon as I see it. Situation resolved as far as it could go.
BUT..she goes on telling me about how she lost it, why she lost it, how much she loves it, how she cant live without it..how her husband doesn't like the dog, but let her keep it...etc etc.
None of this information is required to help her find the dog if I do see it...first thing I think is "Really? Me, the complete stranger you just met, is the best person you know to be relaying all this emotions to about the dog? there isn't anyone closer to you that might actually care?"
Cold of me maybe...but I've never met this lady before, and to me 'will you help me find my dog' is one thing.. I'll even go in the park with you and look..but I don't know you, and the history of the dog isn't really important to me..but NOW im in an awkward situation of having it forced on me, with her not knowing a thing about my personally, just ASSUMING that I will care, and if I don't react in the "OH wow, really? I'm sad to hear that..I hope you and your husband can come to an agreement on the dog" type way..she thinks ME the asshole.
Or another example, Homeless guy in the park, hes a great guy, he even waves to our kids and never begs or annoying people when I see him out there..it was raining and cold one night and he was out there sleeping. I took him and old sleeping bag, some sandwiches, and soda we had so he could at least eat and be warm, sat it down near him, he looked up and I went "here man you look like you can use this more than me" and walked back in the house.
The next day he wants to chat with me about how he became homeless, why hes there, how much his life sucks, his ex wife..and so on.
I feel bad he has no one to talk to, and I was the first kind face he saw..but Im not that person for him. sorry dude. Im the "you look cold and hungry here is a sandwich" not a "tell me your sorrows" one.
and NOW he thinks me the asshole, the guy that brought him food and bag..because I didnt want to listen for 20 minutes to him.
So I just tend to avoid helping those I don't have attachment to, because I don't want to be forced to show fake sympathy and compassion that I don't do well. As its seems helping out isn't enough most the time..they want you to have the emotional distress they are having also.. I will do whatever I can to help if needed..but emotions from people i don't know just muddle the "there is a problem, lets find a solution"
I mean am I in the wrong, when I have a 'limit, but ability, for compassion'? like the homeless guy. I think I helped out, but still the bad guy in the end, because I didn't 'help out enough, and how they wanted'. Isn't any help to be happy for? Not that I'm looking for a pat on the back for doing it..I did it because I wanted to...I just don't want to be shit on because despite my help, it didn't go as far as you wanted it to..so be damned the help I did give.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Nahh, i don't think you are doing anything wrong. People are different. You did a good thing by bringing him the sleeping bag, food and the drink. If you look from his perspective, he's all alone and has no one to talk to, and talking about something can ease someones suffering. He could have asked first if you were interested, but i don't think you'll find many people who do so. I certainly haven't.
What i find most annoying when people ask me for advice or help and i proceed telling them what I think they should do if they are in trouble and they accept and do the complete opposite which leaves them in the same issue as they were in. Many people ask for help, but don't follow any advice.
Nahh, i don't think you are doing anything wrong. People are different. You did a good thing by bringing him the sleeping bag, food and the drink. If you look from his perspective, he's all alone and has no one to talk to, and talking about something can ease someones suffering. He could have asked first if you were interested, but i don't think you'll find many people who do so. I certainly haven't.
What i find most annoying when people ask me for advice or help and i proceed telling them what I think they should do if they are in trouble and they accept and do the complete opposite which leaves them in the same issue as they were in. Many people ask for help, but don't follow any advice.
That sounds like that these people already had a plan but wanted to get a 2nd opinion, evaluate with their own but didn't agree with it and went own with their own plan.
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