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 Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 00:56 Post subject: |
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| jonels wrote: | No its not by chance... check out universal constants.. ie force/weight/ect of gravity/dark matter/matter/ect that have to be an exact value for the universe to exist..the odds for all these to have the exact properties they have all in the same universe is astronimcal
..for infinity to be the answer there would have to be infinite universes and so and so on.. therfore an infinite amount of more intelligent beings or whatever ..so and so on |
That first argument is completely null, what odds are against our universe getting rules for things to exist in? And what are these "values" that have to be there for a universe to exist? Also, why would there have to be infinite universes, last I checked infinity was enough on just one universe for life to start to form.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 01:07 Post subject: |
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quote " That first argument is completely null, what odds are against our universe getting rules for things to exist in? And what are these "values" that have to be there for a universe to exist? Also, why would there have to be infinite universes, last I checked infinity was enough on just one universe for life to start to form."
The Cosmological Constant is the correct term ..you should google it. Obviously the model of the universe theorists have now will change.. but as it stands they cannot get past this "Cosmological Constant". The universe seems to have been fine tuned.
I'm not saying by God as I am a dumb guy who could not possibly give you an answer, all I'm saying is that our creation by infinite random events does't fit the model any more.
I looked up "gormless" in the dictionary, it said "without gorm" .... so i looked up "gorm" but it wasn't there ????
Last edited by jonels on Mon, 16th Jan 2006 04:13; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 01:28 Post subject: |
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alien beings made us same as they did the great pyramids!
they still come by from time to time to check our progress but less often since the incident in space that showed a lazer beam beeing fired at an object under its own propulsion(meaning it was definetly not an asteroid unless they suddenly started beeing propeled backwords away from the earths gravitational field) near the space station that was shown on alot of ufo programs.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 01:34 Post subject: |
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| snop1050 wrote: | alien beings made us same as they did the great pyramids!
they still come by from time to time to check our progress but less often since the incident in space that showed a lazer beam beeing fired at an object under its own propulsion(meaning it was definetly not an asteroid unless they suddenly started beeing propeled backwords away from the earths gravitational field) near the space station that was shown on alot of ufo programs. |
Thats as good a theory as anything else I have heard... at least that one I can get my head round. I don't think its anymore silly than the idea of an infinite universe with infinite infinites resulting in us... or the God one.
I looked up "gormless" in the dictionary, it said "without gorm" .... so i looked up "gorm" but it wasn't there ????
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 01:51 Post subject: |
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| jonels wrote: | quote " That first argument is completely null, what odds are against our universe getting rules for things to exist in? And what are these "values" that have to be there for a universe to exist? Also, why would there have to be infinite universes, last I checked infinity was enough on just one universe for life to start to form."
The Cosmological Constant is the correct term ..you should google it. Obviously the model of the universe theorists have now will change.. but as it stands they cannot get past this "Cosmological Constant". The universe seems to have been fine tuned.
I'm not saying by God as I am a dumb guy who could not possibly give you an answer, all I'm saying is that our creation by infinite randomous does't fit the model any more. |
You know nothing of science do you. The cosmological constant is just a theoritical representation of the energetic properties of an absolute vacuum. It was envisaged by Einstein to explain why a static universe would not collapse. Obviously he was proven wrong when Hubble proved that the unverse is expanding. It has since been picked up again to explain certain quantum phenomena observed in absolute vacuums.
It is is no way evidence of a 'created universe'. As for your other argument about the fundamental forces, well, they didn't just magically appear, they're based on the same physical constraints as everthing else. All these forces derive from each other, and have complex interactions. If the forces had different values, then they would have still harmonised in the end. The universe would have just formed differently. Some people are so arrogent in assuming that the way our universe exists is the absolute. It's the only way we understand, because it's the only way we know. Does that mean it's the only possibility?
This is what I mean about the uneducated basing beliefs on ignorance. It's fine for you to have your belief's, but don't justify them based on bullshit pseudo-science. At least admit you believe them because you either can't comprehend other possibilities, or because you 'like' that explanation.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 02:15 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Creationism = Cretinism |
thanx for that quote, fisk, thats the perfectly fitting answer for my sarcastic view on that topic and i ll try to use it at the nearest opportunity  |
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 02:22 Post subject: |
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It is known that these universal constants do represent a major problem in explaining the universe.. i used the term Cosmological Constant which was wrong. Check fine tuned universe on google which will lead you to multiverse theories.. string theory ect ect.. the only point i make is I think it very unlikely that the universe was created by "CHANCE" which is what some posters were trying to say was already scientifically proved. Though in no way am i saying that this is not the answer.
Its my gut feeling that "CHANCE" is not the answer. Too many coincideces in my life to account for.
The universe does seem to be "fine tuned" to a degree that would suggest some kind of design. Theorists are trying to come up with new theories all the time to account for apparent fine tuning of the universe.... whats yours?
try googling "fine tuned universe" some may find it interesting.
I looked up "gormless" in the dictionary, it said "without gorm" .... so i looked up "gorm" but it wasn't there ????
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 02:36 Post subject: |
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Omg! If the Universe had different rules, you wouldn't be around to analyse it would you?
You only think this one is special because it's the one you exist in.
Use logic ffs!
EDIT: @SycoSharman, yeah I also think there's more to the driving force behind evolution etc, but I ain't gonna copout and ignore science just for a simple pleasant explanation.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 03:49 Post subject: |
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hey... that`s a bit of topic - but if you are interested in this thread, chances are high that you like the storys written by H.P.Lovecraft.
If you did not read something from him yet - do it...
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 04:19 Post subject: |
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| CobbMk2 wrote: | Omg! If the Universe had different rules, you wouldn't be around to analyse it would you?
You only think this one is special because it's the one you exist in.
Use logic ffs!
EDIT: @SycoSharman, yeah I also think there's more to the driving force behind evolution etc, but I ain't gonna copout and ignore science just for a simple pleasant explanation. |
Im just saying that there has to be a respect for what cant be explained.  |
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 04:43 Post subject: |
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| CobbMk2 wrote: | Omg! If the Universe had different rules, you wouldn't be around to analyse it would you?
You only think this one is special because it's the one you exist in.
Use logic ffs! |
Thats the problem, the rules seem to have been set before the big bang. To solve that the 'Multiverse' theory was created and that stated that there was an infinite amount of big bangs to account for the universal constants, resulting in one of them being the universe we know now. The only problem is that an infinite amount of universes would mean an infinite amount of senchant (spelling) beings with at least an infinite amount of them being of god-like status and beyond. Then string theory took the mainstream, which got ultimately disprooved. I do not even know the latest theories, but you can bet the Einsteins of today are working furiously with it.
The crux of the problem of the apparent fine tuned universe is that any one of multiple laws of physics only have to be changed by the smallest imaginable amount to halt the creation of sun planets and galaxies. By the smallest amount scientists/physicians/mathmeticians have calculated that the change be of 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001 % (roughly) of any of the set in stone laws of physics (imagine a feather falling to the ground a millionthtrillinth of a nano second faster).
The laws of physics cannot of existed before the existence of anything at all.
The question is, Is there a fine tuner (God or something unimaginable) or another explantion? As mankind dives deeper into the mysteries of the universe answers may come. Time may tell.
I looked up "gormless" in the dictionary, it said "without gorm" .... so i looked up "gorm" but it wasn't there ????
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 06:25 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | | Im just saying that there has to be a respect for what cant be explained. |
You do realize that -everything- starts out as unexplained? What did you know of reading, before you learned to read? Before then, it was unexplained - to you. Did that mean that when you learned that those figure variations on a blank piece of paper was symbols that could be interpreted as a means to communication was the works of some divinity?
Show a flashlight to a native in some far removed tribe, and he will say it is magic, the creation of some "unexplainable" higher being, or what not.
And who knows, given enough time - his tribe might even be coerced into believing that, so strongly, that they would be able to kill anyone who believed something other than that a flashlight is the creation of magic.
It has been the way of religions throughout history, and all over the world:
"Believe in our invisible man (or men/women), and his(/her) ideals - or you are damned, or worse"
Fact is, those who have a hard time dealing with the unexplained, aren't the non-religious.
We just don't attribute the things we cannot understand with magic, gods, or the boogey-man.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 12:45 Post subject: |
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i belive in sience!
Reality is booring...
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 14:10 Post subject: |
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| MariusED wrote: | | i belive in sience! |
Shut up! You can't even spell it right.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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deelix
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 15:57 Post subject: |
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| Supino wrote: | A dog is color blind, could you explain to a colorblind what the color blue looks like?
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to a dog no, but to a blind yes, cause people who turn blind at a later age know how the color blue looks like because of a memory. so if we could inplant a memory in the minds of colorblinds who have always been colorblind they would know |
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 16:26 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | | Im just saying that there has to be a respect for what cant be explained. |
oh, there usually is. There just isnt much respect for people who try to exploit the unexplainable with phoney theories / ideas about the causes for those unexplainable things. Its in the nature of science that there will always be unexplained phenomena, even if science is able to reduce those to a minimum in the future
so, if you want to play the god-joker whenever you cant explain something you might as well go back to a society without technology and gods for every fart that nature does, like many of the nature based primitive religions were. There is certainly more to religion than the dogmatic eye of the fundamentalist believers see and i d love to debate such things, but creationism in itself is first and foremost a theory that will not further the scientific cause as it uses the unexplainable results as proof for its main argument and therefore has no intrinsic motivation for research into possible alternative explanations. As long as that is the case i will view creationism only as a fools view of the world that is antithetical to science. |
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SycoShaman
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 23:16 Post subject: |
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Oh, Im not saying that all things that cant be explained are of divine nature. Maybe we dont have the technology or the intelligence to figure somethings out yet. and I do think that things should continue to progress in science and we should question the existence of God.
But when it comes down to it, science will never be able to explain everything. There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 23:29 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | | But when it comes down to it, science will never be able to explain everything. There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything. |
Stop it with the false prophecies.
"Science will never be able to explain everything"
That's a tautology. A given. It's like saying: "You will never be able to breathe air in vacuum!".
So what?
| Quote: | | There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything. |
Why do you have a need for a simple explanation? Why is it that you seek a "force" or "entity" that have created -everything-?
Why do you wish to alienate yourself from the fact that you're able to create? Just as many others?
You're the one who's so desperate to find an explanation, that you make things up - to give yourself a self-righteous peace of mind.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Supino
Posts: 699
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| Posted: Mon, 16th Jan 2006 23:55 Post subject: |
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SycoShaman
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 00:05 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | SycoShaman wrote: | | But when it comes down to it, science will never be able to explain everything. There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything. |
Stop it with the false prophecies.
"Science will never be able to explain everything"
That's a tautology. A given. It's like saying: "You will never be able to breathe air in vacuum!".
So what?
| Quote: | | There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything. |
Why do you have a need for a simple explanation? Why is it that you seek a "force" or "entity" that have created -everything-?
Why do you wish to alienate yourself from the fact that you're able to create? Just as many others?
You're the one who's so desperate to find an explanation, that you make things up - to give yourself a self-righteous peace of mind. |
Naw man, your way off base.
Choosing to believe in a God is not simple at all.
And science has said it will never be able to explain everything. But, to make what I mean clearer, let me rephrase what I said. In our lifetime, science will not explain everything.
Whether or not the unexplained is a result of God or not, I choose the former rather than the latter. To say say im in desperate need of a solution, especially considering you should know where I stand, is retarded man.
Im not saying we should advance as a scientific culture. But, your asking ppl to accept that everything can be explained or will be explained by science. Why cant u accept that there might be a God? In one form or another. |
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 00:18 Post subject: |
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organized religion was created to control the masses, and thats a fact.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 00:23 Post subject: |
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1. I am not asking people to accept that everything can be explained. Get over yourself. You are fully capable of reading, and never have I ever claimed anything of the sort.
2. The reason why I "cannot accept" (your words) that there may be a "God", I have already answered previously in this thread. If you are unable to remember my previous statements, you can go back and re-read them.
And then we come to:
| Quote: | | Whether or not the unexplained is a result of God or not, I choose the former rather than the latter. |
Yes, you're choosing to believe. I have no problem with that whatsoever. It's when you go from there to saying "creationism is a fact", that you're losing the grip.
In our lifetime, science will not explain everything. - no, science will most likely never be able to explain -everything- ; if we treat -everything- as an infinite, which it might be (should eg. the universe be infinite) - explanation would be, ultimately impossible. And even rather impractical (seeing as, what science really does, is: trying to explain what's relevant to us, human kind).
You never answered my question though; why is it, that you wish to alienate yourself from your ability to create?
You say: "There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything."
Yes, but from here you assume that this has to be a singular entity.
If you build a house. You built it. Not some imaginary yokel.
Yes, something is behind the creation of everything. Sometimes it's a man, sometimes it's a beaver (building a dam), sometimes it's chemistry (chemical reactions), and sometimes it's energy patterns in a state of flux.
Beyond what we know, there are -definitely- an enormous amount of forces that are able to create. But they do not magically implode into one big conscience, just because we cannot yet see them, or determine what they are. Or even, know they are.
Now, I'm going to go cook myself some dinner. Perhaps you'd see it as a mystical creation from "God". I see it as frying, boiling, cutting, and slicing. All by -my very own hands-. Why I would surrender this power of creation to figments of my metaphysical philosophy, I do not know. But you obviously do.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Supino
Posts: 699
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 00:27 Post subject: |
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@SycoShaman
Lets say there is almost an infinite possible answers to "Life, the univers and everything". God may be one of them.
Why can't people hold every possibility open - as we haven't a clue of whats going on?
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 00:31 Post subject: |
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but if god is so powerfull can he make a rock so powerfull that he himself couldnt lift it?
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 00:32 Post subject: |
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| JeanPerrier wrote: | | organized religion was created to control the masses, and thats a fact. |
I agree.
BUT, God and religion arent one in the same. Im a spiritual guy and probably believe in stuff y'all would think is crazy. And thats cool with me. Everyone has their own opinion and ways right.
The principle of living your life for something greater than yourself is something i choose to believe in. Doesn't mean Im right or wrong. its my opinion.
I think people dont really make a distinction between God and organized religion. And thats when things get all fucked up, you are either at one end of the spectrum or the other. In the case of religion and God, its best to be on the fence. What you believe today may not be what you believe tomorrow. Spirituality, religion, god, is all about change and understanding - hence my problem with christianity, judaism, islam etc religions that force you to think a certain way.
Its not weak to believe in a God and its not weak to be spiritual. In today's world, i think its far more a challenge than it was say even 50 years ago.
It is weak tho, to think that all things that cant be explained are all of divine nature. I think eventually, in terms of science, we will figure out whether or not there is intelligent life somewhere else, what dark matter is, what worm holes are etc But still, the ultimate question remains which only leaves the possibilty of some powerful force having a hand in creating everything.
I dont think its narrow minded to think like that.
If one day, some scientist can prove to me, without doubt, that there is no god and that god and the afterlife is just humanity's way of dealing with death, I will certainly change my views. But, until that day, I will always believe that there is something that is 'supreme' - whether its an entity, guy nailed to a piece of wood, old man with a crook, ball of light etc etc, something operates in this world on a level we cant see/detect.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 01:04 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | | God and religion arent one in the same. |
No, the belief is religion, and God is just a symbol of it.
| Quote: | | Im a spiritual guy and probably believe in stuff y'all would think is crazy. |
The only religious people I think are crazy, are the ones who do extreme acts in the name of it.
| Quote: | | The principle of living your life for something greater than yourself is something i choose to believe in. Doesn't mean Im right or wrong. its my opinion. |
The pursuit of ideals is great, to better yourself is awesome. To give the achievment of it away to some deity, I cannot understand. Take pride in what you become, and give your self compliments for getting there. Why is it that you need this "God"?
| Quote: | | I think people dont really make a distinction between God and organized religion. And thats when things get all fucked up, you are either at one end of the spectrum or the other. In the case of religion and God, its best to be on the fence. What you believe today may not be what you believe tomorrow. Spirituality, religion, god, is all about change and understanding - hence my problem with christianity, judaism, islam etc religions that force you to think a certain way. |
I definitely see your point, and I think it's good that you've found your own way of believing, instead of just taking the bait and following the stream. Fundamentally though, I can't see why you cannot replace your vision of "God" with "self"? You, is what you are. "God" is just a creation you made, to project yourself onto.
| Quote: |
Its not weak to believe in a God and its not weak to be spiritual. In today's world, i think its far more a challenge than it was say even 50 years ago. |
Who says it's weak? And why do you justify your decisions? Believe what you will man.
| Quote: | | the possibilty of some powerful force having a hand in creating everything. |
Now you come back to this again. It's like an obsession. "A hand that created -everything-".
| fisk wrote: | You say: "There must be some sort of force or entity behind the creation of everything."
Yes, but from here you assume that this has to be a singular entity.
If you build a house. You built it. Not some imaginary yokel.
Yes, something is behind the creation of everything. Sometimes it's a man, sometimes it's a beaver (building a dam), sometimes it's chemistry (chemical reactions), and sometimes it's energy patterns in a state of flux.
Beyond what we know, there are -definitely- an enormous amount of forces that are able to create. But they do not magically implode into one big conscience, just because we cannot yet see them, or determine what they are. Or even, know they are. |
| Quote: |
If one day, some scientist can prove to me, without doubt, that there is no god and that god and the afterlife is just humanity's way of dealing with death, I will certainly change my views. |
Why would you believe in the scientist, above your faith?
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 01:08 Post subject: |
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If the scientist could prove to me that there was no God, without doubt, then yes I would. I dont stick to one rigid line of "believing".
And the whole self god thing, I see what your saying. And I do believe we are God (or gods), just not in the way u suggest. Perhaps God is man made, fine, but until I know a definite answer, Im going to choose to believe that there is a supreme being.
I believe in the Self as much as the God, so to speak.
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 01:42 Post subject: |
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| JeanPerrier wrote: | | but if god is so powerfull can he make a rock so powerfull that he himself couldnt lift it? |
Please don't bring up the omnipotence paradox, it's as much of a false dilemma as the grandfather paradox of time travel.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Tue, 17th Jan 2006 11:48 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | JeanPerrier wrote: | | but if god is so powerfull can he make a rock so powerfull that he himself couldnt lift it? |
Please don't bring up the omnipotence paradox, it's as much of a false dilemma as the grandfather paradox of time travel. |
the one where you are your own grandfather?
offcourse the paradox is wrong, the third word is wrong.
but i have nothing against people their faiths as long as they start bitching somebody makes a joke about their prophet or go crazy for their believs. As long as they follow their believs and not something some priest told them |
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He even suck more in english than me xD
