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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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 Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 04:12 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | Your comparisons and theories would work if games, gamers, and technology remained the same. There are many more variables and this simplification is just a rant gone awry.
We see these things as problems because we lived through a time when things were better (and simpler). How can anyone who lived outside of this time have any idea about... anything like that? But even then, people like my brother played video games with me as a kid, but he knows nothing about hardware, settings or what a frame per second even is. What percentage do you think we make up in this day and age? Less than a quarter of a percent of all gamers?
Imagine looking at a game as intricate as RDR2 and acting as if mediocre people are the problem. They're probably the best in class at making video games and just watching interlinked animation states trigger from one to the next so seamlessly is a work of art, I don't think enough people appreciate what it happening or what has gone into it. The physics and world detail keep blowing my mind. What is so bad about the game exactly? After 30hrs of gameplay it seems I'm missing something. It feels a thousand times better to play than the shitshow that was the XB1 version, and better still than many recent games I've played.
When it comes to the games problems, the only ones I can see are related to the UI. The launch day issues were sorted after 3 days and most people with good PCs who can't run it are generally mentally deficient as they either don't understand what most settings are, what they do, or that they're trying to max out values that have diminishing returns. The Witcher 2, Crysis, Mankind Divided etc - it's the same old story.
I've tried it on 3 PCs now. If it can run at ~60FPS on my 3 year old GPU, 4 year old CPU and 4 year old 16GB RAM - I would hardly call it a game with performance problems.
And yes, anyone who preordered it is a dope (assuming they're unhappy with the game), but those acting as if it's even close to being on par with GTAIV or some other shit port seem to be a little misinformed. |
I don't see how complexity is an excuse. Is software more complex? It is, but it is a self-inflicted complexity of sorts. Let's put games to the side for a moment. Look at your browser, your OS (any OS really), your word processor (online or application), your photo editor, your Steam, your UI bittorrent client, your messaging app. Those have become monstrosities, but the return is not necessarily much better than software from 10-20 years ago. Is Windows 10 giving you a significantly better experience than Windows 2000 or Windows 7?—yet, it is demonstrably more buggy. Is Photoshop 20 significantly much better than Photoshop 6?—and yet, it takes almost triple the memory usage, pig slow to start and has ugly UI. Is Slack significantly better than mIRC?—yet, it brings an entire OS with it just to show you some giphy images. Is the Windows 10 UWP calculator application significantly better than the one in Windows 97?—why does it take so long to launch?
The software world has become a world full of shortcuts, full of people whose job is 9-17, who are not ... quality ... engineers. I am not naive to think that the older model would have lasted ad infinitum, but I don't see a reason not to point these issues. But I'd argue the 9-17 folk are not the only, or indeed, major cause to blame. Management is responsible. For pushing yearly releases, investing no time in QA and maintenance, no flexibility in release dates, thinking only in quarter revenue, etc. The entire system is rotten. When individual developers are able to push equally complex software at a much higher quality state than big corporations, you know it's rotten.
I don't necessarily have something against Rockstar. I like their games, I really liked RDR2. I do have some criticism of this port's settings, as I've mentioned in the past, but that's fine, as long as there is a set of settings that works fine.
But gaming, too, has become part of the rotten industry. Do you not agree? Do you believe this is not true? Do you feel that the output quality of games from the last ~10 years equals or surpasses that of games released before? As was said earlier, we used to get games that were played in machines (PC or otherwise) that would not or could not connect to the internet. Let's think about complexity. I don't necessarily agree that game complexity is higher now than it used to be. Just to remind you, games used to optimize their drawing cycles to coincide with CRT refresh cycles, so they could squeeze a little bit more CPU time. I think complexity has stepped to the side and changed, but not necessarily grown. Games themselves have grown in complexity, but in this point, I'd actually go with calculator example. It's a self-inflicted complexity which doesn't benefit me as a user. What does FO76 benefit me as a user? That's an extreme example, but even more subtle ones, such as NBA2k20 (any of the recent ones really) shipping in the state that it shipped, how does that game benefit me, that NBA Live 2003 didn't?—other than graphics and content. Even if the complexity is accepted as necessary, it is still not an excuse for the state that games are released in. The gaming industry is now a multi-trillion dollar industry, and yet, they are not able to test on 1000 different machines to see how games perform and how they break? Even RDR2, clearly the patch was in the works before release—why was the game released before the patch was ready? Why did they not push the release date by a week? Game companies have become these corporate monstrosities, stuck in a distribution model from 20 years ago. Yes, in 1999, you had to distribute the game to the disk replication factory months in advance. "Gone gold". But this is absolutely meaningless in the modern era. |
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 06:36 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:04; edited 3 times in total
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24656
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 07:19 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:04; edited 3 times in total
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 07:34 Post subject: |
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id Tech 6-7 is developed by 5 people in total, I think. The rest is content and game. I don’t see Doom as particularly a good example in this case.
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 08:28 Post subject: |
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The game itself is another prime example of a thoroughly confused, schizophrenic game design the idustry is riddled with, extreme visual realism clashes hard with arcady combat gameplay, story clashes with very mild difficulty and poor, moron-oriented balance, etc...A good game, and a massive waste of potential for a significantly more powerful experience.
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 09:14 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:04; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 10:15 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | | LeoNatan wrote: | | id Tech 6-7 is developed by 5 people in total, I think. The rest is content and game. I don’t see Doom as particularly a good example in this case. |
It is amazing to me how one person turns to Minecraft (totally irrelevant) while the next solely refers to id Tech (and dismisses the entire game portion of things, ie: the basis of the argument) 
What better example can there be other than top tier games from both eras that demonstrate just how much development has changed and the complexities involved?
Developers have gone from testing the most rudimentary shooting mechanics in a world that isn't even technically 3D, DOOM, to the endless possibilities of a world like RDR2 (and the millions/billions of things that can possibly break it across 3 platforms) yet the standards should somehow remain the same? Good luck with that. It's not realistic. |
Most, if not all of this is built upon libraries that were already available and well-tested, so they're not exactly breaking new ground in any respect. Modern development is simplified by advances made by previous generations. Doom didn't have the luxury of 3D acceleration and a well built API for creating games, just like most early games, so discussion of which was the most complicated feat of engineering is difficult, if not impossible to gauge.
ultimately none of this explains why the launcher crashes 
i think they could have afforded to test that a little better, the fact that it had stability problems right out of the gate shows that software complexity was not the problem, but good old testing on common configurations.
that's not to say that RDR isn't complicated, only that i also don't see much excuse either, particularly when rockstar/take2 could afford to buy the moon at this point.
you're right that no one appreciates the effort put into a huge game like RDR2, but rockstar are a garbage company that don't even appreciate their own employees (or fans for that matter ). does anyone appreciate the shit people went through to build consoles or the computers we're on now? probably not. RDR would not exist without all of it... well, just like anything really.
RDR2's state is a case of capitalism happens, investors got impatient for payout 2.0 and the consumer is the only one that suffers for it. I doubt any of these issues boil down to software being too complicated, or programmers being too mediocre.
software complexity 
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 10:23 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:04; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 11:11 Post subject: |
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Of course this devolved into a big pointless discussion instigated by people who don't even own the game but are bored and cynical.
Comparing apples to oranges because we don't live in the "good ol' days" anymore.
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 11:14 Post subject: |
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im not enjoying the game at all. Technically speaking interinactive is correct. The game's scope, realization and details are top of the line. But i dont feel they serve much purpose other than they exist. The animations are awesome to look at. But bad to play. Realism and details for the sake of it are not good. They sacrifice responsiveness and control for them. If i press any movement key very shortly, the game doesnt react. Nothing happens if arthur stands still, facing forward and i shortly press W all the way. I have to keep it pressed for what feels like a full second in order for the game to register. When he runs and i release the keys he stops after several meters.
I think momentum based movement is some of the worst ideas in gaming. There're long animation cycles for everything, looting, moving, searching. Its horrible from a play feel and reaction point.
The gamedesign itself - i find it poor. Everything is so restricted, so handcuffed. The missions so tedious, its blowing my mind. You get through the 3 hour horrible introduction where you're following npc's speak and following orders continualy, you cant move to the left or right or forward until the game lets you.
Then you start the actual game and everything is as far appart as possible, so you can horseride long stretches for everything. Just like GTA 4 or 5. Every single thing you have to do is tiresome and streched out and padded.
I have a mission to collect debt. Of course they're spread out throughout the land. Of course i reach the first one and need to seach his entire house, opening every drawer, going through long cycles of animation for all of them.
Then the fail states for every minuscule deviation from the designers intended course makes this feel like a primitive game in all the aspects that count and make a game good. I find rockstars type of gamedesign possibly the worst there is out of any game
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garus
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Posts: 34197
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 11:36 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:25; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 11:51 Post subject: |
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i havent seen that, but its not some deep insight that i have into the game, its pretty clear. Its the same in GTA 5. I have to confess i never played gta 5 to the end because i could not stand the way the entire game was made. Its construction, its style of gameplay.
rockstars been doing shit in my opinion design since they were finished with san andreas. Freedom and reactivity in pc games were something we sought since decades. rockstar just cufs your hands and you ahve the leveldesigners hands guiding you through the entire game at every single step. Every minuscule act you do is the one permited by the level designer, at the time he allows you to do it, in the way he allows you to do it.
You're following a script to the letter when playing the game
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24656
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 11:54 Post subject: |
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So what you're after is a sandbox experience then? Personally I prefer story lines and substance over sandbox.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 12:03 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:25; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 12:20 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | So what you're after is a sandbox experience then? Personally I prefer story lines and substance over sandbox. |
nope. Deus Ex 1, Thief 1 or 2, System Shock, Dishonored 2, Mankind Divided. Gothic 1/2.
Those are i think peak game design concepts and implementations. If you're gonna do liniar gamedesign, you need to make it top tier - Half Life 1, No One Llives Forever tier.
Rockstar has the worst of both worlds. Big, vast, extremely detailed words - that see little practical use. The missions are so liniar and restricted that they become a very negative point
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 12:27 Post subject: |
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Whether you enjoy the game or Rockstars concept or not is entirely subjective. Pointless discussion, imo.
I just finished a GI/GII:notr playthrough before starting this and I still enjoy it.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 13:57 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | Frant wrote: | | So what you're after is a sandbox experience then? Personally I prefer story lines and substance over sandbox. |
Sure, same here. But RDR2's sandbox actively makes access to the story more... cumbersome. |
Any game that features both sorry and open world will require some type of suspension of disbelief. “My friend has been kidnapped and threatened, but let me take this flower collection quest that will take me 10 hours to complete” But there really isn’t another way to do it. Either you do it like this or you do a linear pew pew pew like Call of Duty. I don’t think RDR2 does it any worse/better, other than the fact that it is just a lot of fun to explore, whereas other games, like Ubisoft crapolas, are not, and there is a higher chance to sidetrack in RDR2. I do t think lack of fast travel is a detriment here. |
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 14:59 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:25; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 16:21 Post subject: |
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@Xalren Yeah, I don't think that's a good idea. Open world games should be left as free as much as the world allows. I don't particularly like timed quests or missions (like go this point in the next 20 minutes or it will disappear for ever; quests/missions tied to a specific time of day are fine).
I mean, I can of course understand @garus' point of view, of not liking the riding. For me, I enjoyed the experience. I enjoyed riding trains and horses, I enjoyed the nature part of the game.
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 18:06 Post subject: |
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RDR2 demands that the player has a very contemplative nature in order for all the "tedious" bits to remain largely insignificant, even enjoyable.
I don't mind this tediousness and tend to find it immersive more than anything else - looting items at an insane rate by mashing a button doesn't satisfy me. It's a very subjective matter of taste and expectations.
The controls work a lot better with a gamepad and I personally like the weight and inertia that come with the animations, I don't expect pinpoint reactiveness from the character. Then again it works a lot less well with a keyboard, one can really feel how the controls were designed with gamepads in mind - even with the difficulty, which becomes really trivial if you use a mouse in order to shoot.
The missions are only worth it as a on-rail, very cinematic kind of experience which is definitely lackluster, it would be great if different approaches were possible a la Deus Ex.. and then it would pretty much become the perfect game.
R5 5600X - 3070FE - 16GB DDR4 3600 - Asus B550 TUF Gaming Plus - BeQuiet Straight Power 11 750W - Pure Base 500DX
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Neon
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 19:21 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | So what you're after is a sandbox experience then? Personally I prefer story lines and substance over sandbox. |
Me too but sometimes i find the substance a bit lackluster in this game. Especially the side stuff. I feel like they could have done so much more with various heists, more iconic scenes from movies and i especially miss some kind of decision making, even a simple one like GTA5 had.
I mean i would like to have at least some control over the gang and some where the story goes. Like Chapter 3 is a great example where they could have put the player in a bit more control (like to chose a side or fuck everyone over), would give it more replay value as well. The honor system could dictate that you may be more of a criminal, get more heists and stuff, maybe unlock a gang which you could do robberies with etc, while being good working with the law to catch said gang.
I feel like the game is stuck somewhere between a more story driven experience and a sandbox. Since i don't enjoy the sandbox completely, i usually pop on the cinematic camera and wait until i actually have to do something. I probably would enjoy the sandbox experience more if it was done a bit better. The honor system is pointless since it has so little impact on the game (being good is better), the wanted system is just....weird and robbing stuff doesn't net much reward. Hunting i find rather boring, even the legendary animals since its all the same and the rewards are rather meh for me.
I mean in the Witcher i had a blast collecting armors (they were the best in the game), you used to for unique builds (to some degree) they had some backstory. Here? Why should i bother to get the special outfit since it changes nothing... My impact on the overall story is negligible.
Don't get me wrong, im enjoying the experience since i love the Wild West theme, but i feel with the world they built, there could have been so much more...
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7585
Location: Greece by the North Sea
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 19:43 Post subject: |
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I also think the game suffers from its constrictions, because here, the constrictions remove a lot of fun instead of adding to it. You have this huge open world, with lots of little details and intricacies, but you're not allowed to do what you want. So what's the point of having it, but the dev showing of? Worse even: at the cost of the player having fun?
I think there are 2 main issues (at least for me, about 10 hours in):
Better fast travel is definitely necessary, and shouldn't break 'immersion' when it's implemented well (how Witcher 3 did it, basically).
Second, the biggest issue, is the wanted system, which is obviously fubar. I only ran into an npc and apparently I deserved the death penalty for that offense 
The system even actively works against you as well; kill a lone rider with no one else in sight, and there will magically appear a cart or another rider to witness you. Fucking hell, let a guy enjoy his game, Rockstar
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| Posted: Tue, 12th Nov 2019 19:52 Post subject: |
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No one complain anymore performance issues.? Cos i have.. and lots of them. Cant even get decent results from Benchmark cos game stutters and badly. Sometimes i can play game very good like 30 mins. Towns like Valentine are just impossible to go to because there are like 5sec stutters.. or more.. Sometimes it just crashes after 5 mins.
i5 4670k
16gigabytes ram
Gtx 1070ti
And still no patch..
And like Odyssey runs nicely. And idont see much difference of graphics.
Last edited by Dtheater78 on Tue, 12th Nov 2019 19:57; edited 2 times in total
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